I will go a step further, and say that I don't see any need for definitions on cards at all. My smartphone has a dictionary built in already. There's apps like Tagaini Jisho and JEDict that can automatically do a search when you copy a word into the clipboard. You can also switch to J-J when you feel the time is right by installing different dictionaries as your level improves.

Adding dictionary definitions to cards just seems like makework to me.

^ Now I appreciate that point of view, but here are my counterpoints...

1. Like writing down notes helps remember them, writing down definitions (even copying-pasting them after some work in understanding) helps remember the meaning. This is not another random unknown word, some time was spent trying to understand that word in the process of creating the card, and all of that is recalled along with the correct answer.

2. Not all definitions are created equal. Especially with brief, sometimes vague J-J definitions. I have 4 kokugo dics loaded into my ATOK IME and I can look at any or all of them at a keystroke, and copy-paste the best one... When I was starting J-J I would be going for the one that a non-native can understand just by looking at the kanji. You can't say that about most daijirin defs (assuming you use an iphone)

What it seems like to me is that the people who seriously tried Japanese definitions see a benefit in using them, and the people who haven't tried don't see the point.

egoplant Wrote:What it seems like to me is that the people who seriously tried Japanese definitions see a benefit in using them, and the people who haven't tried don't see the point.

That is indeed a good way to discredit the opposing argument without looking at it.

egoplant Wrote:What it seems like to me is that the people who seriously tried Japanese definitions see a benefit in using them, and the people who haven't tried don't see the point.

It would be tragic to invest time and effort into something that didn't really benefit them in the end. Of course they want to believe what they did wasn't meaningless.

They're certainly not UNhelpful.
I love having the reference right there in Anki. Though I do regularly look in the dictionary as well.

Yudantaiteki doesn't really see the point and he's great at Japanese.
I love 'em and I'm not terrible at Japanese either. Probably.
There are skilled people on either side of the fence so I think it's safe to say, "do whatever you feel like!!"

Just because some magical website says something is a good idea doesn't necessarily mean it is for you.

That having been said, somewhere along the line you will probably want to understand some (many?) words in a Japanese way.. or to know the other meanings and nuances. Turns out Japanese definitions are handy for this! But you can always just look them up later. ;]

ya I think that there isn't an objective answer saying they are good or bad. They are good for some people depending on their learning style and disposition.

When I was in college I taught sailing to kids 8-13 years old. One of the first things we learned was that in teaching, you have people that learn things differently. Some people need a picture to really get an idea, some people need audio input, some people need text. As a teacher we were instructed to make sure we always had all three bases covered, so that all types of learners could benefit.

Well as a student I know that I am very image oriented. But with regards to j-j sentences, I know that I benefit from their presence. Moreover I understand that it may be a very personal thing and not everyone else may benefit.

I think the moral of the story is that self-study is not a one-size fits all universal truths kind of activity... and to do it well you have to understand how you learn best as an individual, and create a study system based around that. One major component of which is, at least in the beginning until you know yourself really well, to try everything and see how it works/how you feel about it/how it affects your study objectively.

I would advise everyone to try j-j cards, especially if they are within the 6-18 month point of their project... but to understand that they may not be helpful, depending on that person's individual disposition as a learner.

egoplant Wrote:What it seems like to me is that the people who seriously tried Japanese definitions see a benefit in using them, and the people who haven't tried don't see the point.

This.

ryuudou Wrote:

egoplant Wrote:What it seems like to me is that the people who seriously tried Japanese definitions see a benefit in using them, and the people who haven't tried don't see the point.

This.

So go on then - explain the 'profound effect' you talked about before.

It's not like I'm opposed to the idea on principle or anything, but English translations of the word are both easier to add and quicker to glance through as I get my Ankiing out of the way for the day. There seems to be some evidence that translations are not a bad way of doing things too. I'm happy to be convinced that J-J definitions are an amazingly good idea, and I see what drdunlap is saying, but you're making bigger claims than that and should back them up.

I see being able to use J-E definitions as a great opportunity. We can use English to learn Japanese.

Things that sound good sound weird when you try to justify them (especially using reasons that haven't been experienced by others, such as 'profundity'). It's so easy for me to respect a concept, but I usually find it difficult to explain why an idea's so great. It's also a lot easier to make ideas look silly.
Being objective is a fine way of doing things - impartiality and detachment is what some scientists strive for. But sometimes, you come up with ideas that you simply enjoy and follow through with.
Indoctrination isn't good. Mob mentality isn't good either.

My experience with monolingualism: it feels similar to drdunlap's philosophy " 習うより慣れろ". I observe the context more (as opposed to passively glancing at the definition and moving on).

Counterargument:
"Translations in your best language are transparent windows onto the semantic units that new word forms refer to. A bilingual person isn’t two monolinguals in one head, the two languages interact automatically the instant you begin learning an additional language, extending a network that refers to the same semantic knowledge and relies on the same general language parsing abilities. [...]" (darkjapanese)

Also:
A word's meaning "isn't set in stone" during the first encounter (nadiatims). Repeated encounters in context help solidify its definition.

"Another thing about the "get used to describing things" argument is that, at least for me, by the time I was good enough to read J-J entries at a reasonable speed I was already good enough at Japanese to describe everyday things." (Tzadeck)

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=10455&page=1

Aikynaro Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:

egoplant Wrote:What it seems like to me is that the people who seriously tried Japanese definitions see a benefit in using them, and the people who haven't tried don't see the point.

This.

So go on then - explain the 'profound effect' you talked about before.

It's not like I'm opposed to the idea on principle or anything, but English translations of the word are both easier to add and quicker to glance through as I get my Ankiing out of the way for the day. There seems to be some evidence that translations are not a bad way of doing things too. I'm happy to be convinced that J-J definitions are an amazingly good idea, and I see what drdunlap is saying, but you're making bigger claims than that and should back them up.

Maybe if there was a Japanese to English dictionary that provided accurate definitions it would be useful, but the only ones available just give you a list of synonyms, of which most of them aren't 1:1 synonyms. I do think for nouns just using the English word is easier though.