Yatagarasu Wrote:I suppose it goes against the spirit of this forum

I like to think the spirit of this forum is encouraging people and helping them learn Japanese as fast as possible. Blind belief in RTK doesn't help anyone.

Quote:but I really wish I had stopped RTK around the 500-800 mark. It did me loads of good until then, that's how far it took me to stop being afraid of kanji, understand and get used to the radical system, stroke order and how the kanji are built, which I feel really helped but... I got really bored and lazy afterwards and with the time it took to complete the full 2k I would have probably done much more if I went straight into grammar/vocab.

This is absolutely my point exactly.

NightSky Wrote:

adam_invers Wrote:Even a beginner using the Heisig method will see that the system is helping them learn Japanese (alongside a valuable learning tool), as in a day or even less they'll be able to essentially read the entire language with furigana without having to use rote memorization techniques and without having to repeatedly write the characters out (which isn't a bad approach because people use it all the time)

I'm not sure if I understand your point or not, or if I just plain disagree with it. You could NOT use the Heisig method, learning Hiragana in a few hours and then be "essentially able to read the entire language with Furigana", and you did this WITH using boring rote techniques. Your Kana example is plain bad because you absolutely definitely don't need Heisig to do it, you can learn it in hours with almost any method.

Not only hiragana, but katakana would likely have to be included. And since I'm positive that you know what furigana is, whenever furigana is used, a person would be able to read the furigana since they would be able to read hiragana and katakana.

If the entire language had furigana subscript next to the kanji, someone could essentially be able to read the entire language. But that says nothing for their ability to understand it, nor does it say anything about the reality of how most common Japanese literature won't have full furigana subscript next to every single kanji.

In regards to Heisig's method, it isn't really about solely using rote memorization to remember how to read and write the kana. Heisig's method is more like associative learning.

With just using rote memorization techniques, a person could forget how to recall a particular character when trying to read or write it, which is part of the issue with rote memorization techniques that Heisig talks about. But with the associative learning techniques used with mnemonics (at least from what I've personally experienced, and from reading this forum what others have experienced as well), a person would be able to recall characters more easily through associating them with a keyword and a story that aids in being able to mentally visualize the shape forming in the mind's eye. So even if the character itself is forgotten, as I can attest to, if the story or keyword is remembered, through association, the rest of the pieces of the mnemonic device will come together and the character should be recalled.

You don't absolutely need to use Heisig's method, no, and I don't remember making that claim. But from personal experience it has made learning easier for me, because before that I did just write out the character lots and lots of times, repeating the syllable that's associated with the character, etc, and it didn't really keep. It's just a matter of some people finding it useful and some people not finding it useful, or even finding it only partially useful. Which is perfectly fine.

NightSky Wrote:Good for you, then Heisig is perfectly worthwhile and I wouldn't stop you from doing it. Heisig however is usually and very unfortunately aimed at the total beginner, advising them to learn everything up front "because you will have to do it eventually anyway". For the total beginner I'd tell them not to bother writing anything by hand and to just study Japanese as much as possible. Writing Kanji by hand isn't really learning Japanese, I think of it as a separate skill.

I'm not sure that I completely agree with this. I don't think that Heisig is aimed solely at the total beginner because, even though a person can get along just fine without having to learn how to write kanji, I've read a few personal accounts of people who lived in Japan for years, who had a good speaking and listening ability, but who have also said they had a poor or nonexistent ability to read or write kanji. They've also made mention of how Remembering the Kanji might be right up their alley for the usual mentioned reasons. So people who are already advanced in the language could benefit from it.

While I agree that a beginner should probably focus on speaking and listening ability, vocabulary, grammar, etc, I also think that learning how to write is still a part of learning Japanese because it's just another piece of the overall language being (isolated) and learned. And I've never really heard of a teacher saying to someone who's illiterate that they shouldn't learn how to write if they're trying to learn a language. Usually literacy in a language is accomanpied by both reading and writing.

One thing that Heisig does explain is that his method is best learned as a separate skill anyway. Just an isolated piece that can be combined with the other pieces whenever and if ever someone decides to use Remembering the Kanji.

I'm not going to respond to most of your last post because I know *exactly* what Heisig is, having read this forum for years and read tons of Heisig related posts over the last 7 odd years or so since I've been learning Japanese. I'm not debating at all what it is, I'm debating its effectiveness at helping a person learn the Japanese language.

It does what it says it will do perfectly well, I know that. My argument is simply that spending 3-6 months learning to write thousands of characters without learning any Japanese whatsoever is not a good use of time.

People *need* it to break through the fear barrier of Kanji. That's it. Everything later gets constantly reinforced anyway as they learn thousands and thousands of words and keep seeing the same characters over and over again. That constant reinforcement still happens when you don't do Heisig with the same result - you get a stronger familiarity whilst learning all the readings. Many people would realise here that they aren't getting a huge benefit from Heisig anymore, they learn new words faster and faster based upon the knowledge they gained through learning lots and lots of words.

Most Heisig disciples haven't actually gone through the stage yet of learning any number of words, let alone up to 15,000 of them, so simply aren't in a position to make any reasonable argument based on its effectiveness learning JAPANESE.

Heisig teaches you how to write single Kanji extremely well, which is all good and dandy but I don't believe particularly helpful to the beginner except as a party trick to impress people - "pick a word and watch me write the Japanese for it".

adam_invers Wrote:Not only hiragana, but katakana would likely have to be included. And since I'm positive that you know what furigana is, whenever furigana is used, a person would be able to read the furigana since they would be able to read hiragana and katakana.

If the entire language had furigana subscript next to the kanji, someone could essentially be able to read the entire language. But that says nothing for their ability to understand it, nor does it say anything about the reality of how most common Japanese literature won't have full furigana subscript next to every single kanji.

My point is sort of the same as before when I said I'm not sure I understand. I understand your English, but why are you writing this? To what point? What argument are you trying to make? What does it have to do with anything at all?

You can learn both Hiragana and Katakana in a day or two with ANY method, and read Furigana fine. That has nothing to do with Kanji or Heisig whatsoever. Going through Heisig doesn't give you any benefit whatsoever to reading because it teaches you no Japanese, no readings, and no meanings either (I mean not really, I don't want to see another 消火器 example).

So what are you talking about Furigana for?

EDIT: host gator internal sever 500 error. For some reason the "preview" did not preview but instead posted, and mangled the post in the process. Maybe the site is still undergoing hiccups.

NightSky Wrote:It does what it says it will do perfectly well, I know that. My argument is simply that spending 3-6 months learning to write thousands of characters without learning any Japanese whatsoever is not a good use of time.

That's pretty fair, but who actually does this? I mean, spend 3-6 months learning to write and recognize the kanji without learning any other Japanese?

NightSky Wrote:I'm not going to respond to most of your last post because I know *exactly* what Heisig is,

Quote:Going through Heisig doesn't give you any benefit whatsoever to reading because it teaches you no Japanese, no readings, and no meanings either (I mean not really, I don't want to see another 消火器 example).

Correct me If I'm wrong, but isn't Remember the Kanji II, based entirely around readings?

Any way, going through Remember the Kanji gave me the benefit of being able to comfortably write kanji, which made also being able to recognize them and remember them while reading a lot simpler. That is a benefit, and it only takes a single contradictory example to invalidate such an absolute statement.

Wouldn't it be more honest to admit that you fail to see any benefit whatsoever, instead of making a blanket statement that it doesn't give anyone any benefits? It's statements like these which, in respect to your earlier comment:

Quote:I like to think the spirit of this forum is encouraging people and helping them learn Japanese as fast as possible. Blind belief in RTK doesn't help anyone.

Present the same absolute attitude, which dampens the spirit of encouragement.

NightSky Wrote:My point is sort of the same as before when I said I'm not sure I understand. I understand your English, but why are you writing this? To what point? What argument are you trying to make? What does it have to do with anything at all?

You can learn both Hiragana and Katakana in a day or two with ANY method, and read Furigana fine. That has nothing to do with Kanji or Heisig whatsoever. Going through Heisig doesn't give you any benefit whatsoever to reading because it teaches you no Japanese, no readings, and no meanings either (I mean not really, I don't want to see another 消火器 example).

So what are you talking about Furigana for?

It was meant to serve its purpose as an explanation to your claim that Heisig's method didn't teach someone how to read, among other things. But learning how to read is precisely one of the things Heisig's method teaches in Remembering the Kana, and later expands upon in the latter volumes of Remembering the Kanji, as another user pointed out.

I'm distinguishing being able to read and being able to understand what you're reading as being two separate things. Even in advanced linguistics, someone could easily be fluent in a language and be able to read the words of something without knowing their meaning, at which point they would probably consult a dictionary. Which even students with advanced Japanese skills most likely still do. That's one of the reasons I mentioned furigana. As a comparison of a beginner who only knows kana and basic kanji trying to read and learn kanji in general that have furigana subscript to an advanced learner who is fluent in Japanese trying to read a difficult word they don't understand or a kanji they don't recognize consulting a dictionary to find its meaning. Both are examples of a person reading something that they don't understand. Knowing how to read kana is knowing how to read Japanese, albeit the most basic form.

It seems as though you really didn't bother to read the necessary parts of my posts. The ones that state that using rote memorization techniques are perfectly fine for people, they can and do work, and it has worked for any number of people. Also, other methods have worked. That's all fine and dandy. However, and I gave myself as an example, Heisig's method, particularly in the case of Remembering the Kana, helps too, and I've found it easier than just trying to remember the kana solely through rote memorization.

NightSky Wrote:My argument is simply that spending 3-6 months learning to write thousands of characters without learning any Japanese whatsoever is not a good use of time.

That depends on what someone is looking to accomplish. And as uisukii pointed out, people probably pair learning kanji writing with other Japanese learning. And to expand on that, if one of the things a beginner does when first learning Japanese is learn hiragana and katakana, then the natural progression could be seen as going into kanji.

Nothing to see here, people. Apparently I'm too dumb to find the 'delete post' button.

uisukii Wrote:That's pretty fair, but who actually does this? I mean, spend 3-6 months learning to write and recognize the kanji without learning any other Japanese?

Its very common for people to do RTK before anything else. Heck AJATT says to do RTK before even learning Kana!

Quote:Correct me If I'm wrong, but isn't Remember the Kanji II, based entirely around readings?

Yes and its mostly shunned for being mostly rubbish, even by people on this forum. But fair enough, let me say now then that I'm referring entirely to RTK1 and arguably 3. RTK2 doesn't inspire much debate because even RTK1 fans don't tend to like it.

Quote:Any way, going through Remember the Kanji gave me the benefit of being able to comfortably write kanji, which made also being able to recognize them and remember them while reading a lot simpler. That is a benefit, and it only takes a single contradictory example to invalidate such an absolute statement.

Wouldn't it be more honest to admit that you fail to see any benefit whatsoever, instead of making a blanket statement that it doesn't give anyone any benefits?

Okay then, let me rephrase. Heisig gives you no immediate benefit to reading Japanese. That is pretty much fact. I'm also happy to admit I fail to see much benefit afterwards, certainly not enough given the up front effort and review time afterwards.

adam_invers Wrote:It was meant to serve its purpose as an explanation to your claim that Heisig's method didn't teach someone how to read, among other things. But learning how to read is precisely one of the things Heisig's method teaches in Remembering the Kana, and later expands upon in the latter volumes of Remembering the Kanji, as another user pointed out

It doesn't teach how to read.

Remembering the Kana isn't really even part of the debate, no-one cares how you learn Kana because any method can get you there in a day or two.

RTK does not "expand" upon anything related to reading Japanese, only to learning keywords so you can write characters. Its just not the same thing. This is something most people who do like RTK are also happy to admit.

RTK has its benefits in making life somewhat easier going forward, its quite dishonest to suggest it helps you actually read anything though.

Quote:It seems as though you really didn't bother to read the necessary parts of my posts. The ones that state that using rote memorization techniques are perfectly fine for people, they can and do work, and it has worked for any number of people. Also, other methods have worked. That's all fine and dandy. However, and I gave myself as an example, Heisig's method, particularly in the case of Remembering the Kana, helps too, and I've found it easier than just trying to remember the kana solely through rote memorization.

That's because I've never once suggested rote memorizing Kanji and never would. Its you who keeps throwing that up as a strawman.

Nightsky, why do you insist on completely dismissing Heisig's method, just because for *you* it is not the most effective or efficient one? Good for you, I'm glad you were able to distinguish all the kanji just from seeing them so often.

However, there are a very many people for whom Heisig is the perfect method for them to learn their way around the kanji. Not everyone has your apparent photographic memory.

I was not a complete beginner before I found Heisig. I had been studying Japanese formally in school and in university for over 10 years by the time I had found Heisig. I could *NOT* remember how to write, or *read* any more than the most basic kanji (we're talking much less than 200, possibly as low as 50 kanji. No exaggeration). ***** knows how I managed to pass my school exams, let alone my university ones. I had been seeing Japanese and kanji daily for 10 years, been writing them out hundreds of times each, and *STILL COULD NOT REMEMBER HOW TO READ OR WRITE THEM EVEN THE NEXT ***** DAY*

Christ, Nightsky, you act like Heisig is a piece of shit on your shoe, on everyone's shoe, and you feel this burning desire to get rid of it, and get people back on the rote learning bandwagon. You go on and on about opening people's eyes to other method, *methods everyone here already knows about*! We all know how kanji are learnt by the methods you advocate (seems to boil down to exposure to flashcards, yes?) and we are here because that *simply does not work for us*. Those of us who get benefit from Heisig are here and doing Heisig, because everything else failed us, and finally we have *found something that works*!!

13 years I spent trying to learn kanji traditional ways, through flashcards and writing them out so many times, 13 godammed years, and at the end of it, I was still as bad at kanji as when I started, for all intents and purposes.

Then I buckled down on Heisig, got RTK1 done in about 6 months, while working full time. Pushed myself over the summer, and did RTK2 the book in about 9 weeks or so.

Heisig is a godsend, Nightsky. Get over it, and stop trying to push people into traditional method they already know about, and have failed them.

ktcgx Wrote:I had been studying Japanese formally in school and in university for over 10 years by the time I had found Heisig. I could *NOT* remember how to write, or *read* any more than the most basic kanji (we're talking much less than 200, possibly as low as 50 kanji. No exaggeration). ***** knows how I managed to pass my school exams, let alone my university ones. I had been seeing Japanese and kanji daily for 10 years, been writing them out hundreds of times each, and *STILL COULD NOT REMEMBER HOW TO READ OR WRITE THEM EVEN THE NEXT ***** DAY*

Mate I'm trying to find a way to phrase this politely. If after 10 years of studying Japanese full time you didn't know how to read 50 Kanji then .... well I don't even know what to say. I assume you weren't really studying at all to be honest. I mean, the worst method ever would see more progress than that, so you were clearly doing something very wrong. I'm not even talking methodology, I just mean you personally.

Quote:Christ, Nightsky, you act like Heisig is a piece of shit on your shoe, on everyone's shoe, and you feel this burning desire to get rid of it, and get people back on the rote learning bandwagon.

Actually I try to not get involved in Heisig debates anymore, even though they constantly pop up on basically any Japanese language related forum. I couldn't help myself this time though because I thought the OP's post was so damn awful.

Quote:You go on and on about opening people's eyes to other method, *methods everyone here already knows about*!

Do I? What methods? I'm only really discussing Heisig, I don't think I've gone into much detail at all, if any, into other methods.

Quote:We all know how kanji are learnt by the methods you advocate (seems to boil down to exposure to flashcards, yes?) and we are here because that *simply does not work for us*. Those of us who get benefit from Heisig are here and doing Heisig, because everything else failed us, and finally we have *found something that works*!!

13 years I spent trying to learn kanji traditional ways, through flashcards and writing them out so many times, 13 godammed years, and at the end of it, I was still as bad at kanji as when I started, for all intents and purposes.

Look, and I mean these as respectfully as I possibly can. For those 13 years you clearly weren't trying to learn Kanji at all, there is no way after 10-13 years of consistent study you can only read 50 characters. REGARDLESS OF METHOD. Seriously I don't care what you did, it doesn't make sense, unless either:

1) What you are saying isn't true
2) You didn't really put any effort into studying how to read whatsoever, but then afterwards blame your methodology for it. When the real problem was lack of any application of any form.
3) Somehow you just cannot tell characters apart and potentially have brain damage.

I'm not even trying to call you brain damaged or insult you in anyway, but after THIRTEEN years of consistent study, if someone can only distinguish 50-200 different shapes within their mind, I'm pretty sure that would indicate real genuine retardation on their part.

So I think its more likely your problem is either (1) or (2).

Quote:Then I buckled down on Heisig, got RTK1 done in about 6 months, while working full time. Pushed myself over the summer, and did RTK2 the book in about 9 weeks or so.

Heisig is a godsend, Nightsky. Get over it, and stop trying to push people into traditional method they already know about, and have failed them.

Good for you, I'm genuinely pleased for you.

I definitely don't think I have any special gift for Kanji, and I'm quite certain I'm wired up the same as everyone else. Maybe there are a few people out there who just cannot "get" it, but I refuse to believe they make up anything more than the slightest minority.

While I rarely post anything serious on this forum (the times when I do post anything), aren't some people missing the point that NightSky is saying? At least read what the guy is saying before criticizing him about things he's not saying...

Just from personal experience, there are numerous things I appreciate from having done RTK Vol. 1 but I also wish I had spent less time doing it solely (about 1.5~ years of effort, cutting out break periods). At least I think it's quite fair to say that RTK in and of itself doesn't bestow the ability to read actual Japanese texts; I don't think anyone here would really dispute this. I definitely had a long break period after finishing RtK Vol. 1, not fully realizing actual Japanese is quite different from RTK until I actually dived into it. RTK helped me eventually get to some level of reading ability, but I would not say that the ultimate reward was worth the effort I put into it. Were I to advise my younger self prior to starting RTK, I would probably do a truncated version of the first volume, or one of those numerous "mods" that exist. I would also recommend to not solely do RTK. Nowadays, I appreciate it as a decent supplement to my studies at best.

How much more there was after RTK was something I wish I had known and taken seriously, instead of blindly following AJATT for some odd years with breaks.
Well, at least I didn't end up just quitting Japanese after RTK, although I was close (Sometimes I still question whether or not I should have started in the first place, but it's too late for that now).

Anyway, brb doing Anki all day and ruining my life.

Nightsky, to answer your question, I have a terrible memory. However, imaginative memory seems to be just fine.

NightSky Wrote:

Quote:You go on and on about opening people's eyes to other method, *methods everyone here already knows about*!

Do I? What methods? I'm only really discussing Heisig, I don't think I've gone into much detail at all, if any, into other methods.

Maybe you should. In a universe with nothing but Heisig and pure rote memorization, Heisig doesn't suck. Some of the people you're arguing with seem to be living in that universe. You'd be doing them a huge favor.

Vempele Wrote:In a universe with nothing but Heisig and pure rote memorization, Heisig doesn't suck.

I'm one of the people who didn't learn kanji the Heisig way.

My general approach to learning languages:
http://users.bestweb.net/%7Esiom/martian...ssages.htm
and Japanese in particular:
http://users.bestweb.net/%7Esiom/martian...20HERE.doc

Learning materials (kanji included):
http://users.bestweb.net/%7Esiom/martian_mountain/JCP/
and
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=6840

I admit that Heisig's method has some shortcomings, one of which is that the Kanji isn't ordered so you have to finish it before making full use of it, but then one third of what's learned will take very long to be useful. That's why when I redid RTK, I did the lite version, even though I finished it all the first time.

Something else that might be unsatisfying to some people is that after all the hard work going through RTK, they don't feel that they learned any Japanese. But then again that's the point, to get Kanji out of the way before getting into the language.

But in the end, for me, RTK's benefits overweight its shortcomings.

Vempele Wrote:

NightSky Wrote:

Quote:You go on and on about opening people's eyes to other method, *methods everyone here already knows about*!

Do I? What methods? I'm only really discussing Heisig, I don't think I've gone into much detail at all, if any, into other methods.

Maybe you should. In a universe with nothing but Heisig and pure rote memorization, Heisig doesn't suck. Some of the people you're arguing with seem to be living in that universe. You'd be doing them a huge favor.

Kanji Odyssey 2001 is a great method. You get the kanji, readings, meanings, stroke order, example vocabulary words, example sentences and workbooks all in one go. The vocabulary words get repeated over and over in the example sentences, so it's kind of like Anki in that you're getting constant exposure. There's absolutely no need to write the kanji out over and over again, although if a person wanted, writing out the example sentences could be very useful.
Another good method, and I think this is what Nightsky has been advocating - read, read, READ. Seeing the kanji being used in a real world application helps a LOT.
The most helpful thing in Heisig for me is that it demonstrated that the kanji are just made up of different parts. A person could very easily just learn the different radicals and move on from there.
Tofugu has a really good article asking about different kanji learning methods. http://www.tofugu.com/2010/03/26/questio...arn-kanji/
There's no need to live in a universe where the only options are Heisig or writing until your hand falls off.

NightSky Wrote:

adam_invers Wrote:It was meant to serve its purpose as an explanation to your claim that Heisig's method didn't teach someone how to read, among other things. But learning how to read is precisely one of the things Heisig's method teaches in Remembering the Kana, and later expands upon in the latter volumes of Remembering the Kanji, as another user pointed out

NightSky Wrote:It doesn't teach how to read.

It does teach you how to read. Learning the Onyomi and some Kunyomi in Remembering the Kanji book 2 is being taught how to read, as Onyomi is the Sino-Japanese reading for a kanji. I honestly have no idea why or how you're debating against that, unless you don't really know what Heisig's method entails, as you imply here:

NightSky Wrote:I'm not going to respond to most of your last post because I know *exactly* what Heisig is, having read this forum for years and read tons of Heisig related posts over the last 7 odd years or so since I've been learning Japanese. I'm not debating at all what it is, I'm debating its effectiveness at helping a person learn the Japanese language.

You are debating what Heisig's method is when you dismiss Remembering the Kana, a large building block of his method, and you're debating what Heisig's method is when you claim that it doesn't teach you how to read. Note that I'm referring to the overall method, because RTK Book 1 is just one piece of the method, and it'd be silly to mention Heisig's method without encompassing all of it. That's why in my previous posts I've specifically included Remembering the Kana as well as Remembering the Kanji Books 1, 2, and 3, as 2 and 3 are companion additions to Remembering the Kana and Remembering the Kanji book 1.

NightSky Wrote:Remembering the Kana isn't really even part of the debate, no-one cares how you learn Kana because any method can get you there in a day or two.

Yes it is. It's a part of Heisig's method which is expanded upon in Remembering the Kanji. I'm not really concerned with whether or not someone cares how I learned kana, since I was using Remembering the Kana as an example for why Heisig's method is helpful, not for telling someone that they should only use Heisig's method.

NightSky Wrote:RTK does not "expand" upon anything related to reading Japanese, only to learning keywords so you can write characters. Its just not the same thing. This is something most people who do like RTK are also happy to admit.

RTK has its benefits in making life somewhat easier going forward, its quite dishonest to suggest it helps you actually read anything though

But I wasn't being dishonest. And this may have been where some confusion came into play. When I mentioned that RTK and Heisig's method expands upon reading Japanese, I was referring to his whole method, and I don't think that I specifically said that Remembering the Kanji book 1 itself expanded upon being able to read Japanese. In context, I said that his Remembering the Kanji method teaches someone how to read Japanese.

His method teaches how to read and write, with a focus on writing being an isolated element, as I mentioned in previous posts.

NightSky Wrote:

adam_invers Wrote:It seems as though you really didn't bother to read the necessary parts of my posts. The ones that state that using rote memorization techniques are perfectly fine for people, they can and do work, and it has worked for any number of people. Also, other methods have worked. That's all fine and dandy. However, and I gave myself as an example, Heisig's method, particularly in the case of Remembering the Kana, helps too, and I've found it easier than just trying to remember the kana solely through rote memorization.

That's because I've never once suggested rote memorizing Kanji and never would. Its you who keeps throwing that up as a strawman.

You've suggested, referenced, or implied rote memorization about 3 or 4 times, 3 of which involve kanji specifically, and another which involves kana, which is diet kanji or kanji with zero carbs:

NightSky Wrote:

dizmox Wrote:When I was going through Genki I I figured the 10 kanji for each lesson weren't sufficient, so I just memorized how to write every word that came up in the vocabulary lists. Learnt about 700+ that way, looking up the stroke orders online. Kinda forgot a lot though since I didn't know about Anki then.

Looking back that may have been a better approach than Heisig for me, since I hadn't really learnt how to write compounds after that (just recognise them - I didn't remember which kanji went with which compound) so I had to go back to that sort of practice anyway.

Yes this is pretty much exactly what I would recommend a person to do, its been my approach and I'm extremely happy with my Kanji reading ability.

This method uses rote memorization.

NightSky Wrote:People *need* it to break through the fear barrier of Kanji. That's it. Everything later gets constantly reinforced anyway as they learn thousands and thousands of words and keep seeing the same characters over and over again. That constant reinforcement still happens when you don't do Heisig with the same result - you get a stronger familiarity whilst learning all the readings. Many people would realise here that they aren't getting a huge benefit from Heisig anymore, they learn new words faster and faster based upon the knowledge they gained through learning lots and lots of words.

That is an example of using rote memorization. Having something constantly reinforced through seeing the same characters and words over and over until the mind can (might) adapt to them. Same concept for flashcards essentially.

NightSky Wrote:You can learn Kana in 1 day with just about any method. I just bought a cheap book with them that had paper to write them over and over, and I did that. Then if you use study materials that use Kana (like Genki etc) you are going to *constantly* see them reinforced anyway.

That's using rote memorization, too, and all of these examples are a glean into what you might consider to be the unidentified methods that you keep mentioning are alternatives to Heisig. Alongside learning in a classroom setting, which also uses rote memorization techniques.

So you can't accurately say that you never mentioned or suggested using rote memorization techniques when you actually did. And when you said that I used a strawman, it's actually the use of a logical fallacy on your part.

Btw, I don't really expect you to reply to this considering we're most likely going to agree to disagree. I just wanted to show you how I wasn't misrepresenting your argument. I addressed each part appropriately.

If you really feel like going back into the sea of text in this thread and finding the parts that you feel I've misrepresented, I'll be more than happy to address them and try to make them more clear.

Fair enough. I think your post is pretty reasonable, but let me drop a few quick bullet points / questions:

(Sorry I've come back to add this comment that my "few quick" points got longer than expected. Oh well)

1) Sorry I wasn't clear but somewhere I did state I was only really referring to the method for RTK1 and for Kanji study (which in fairness is also what the OP talks about, OP doesn't mention RTK2 either)

2) I don't have any opinion on Remembering the Kana. To suggest its "RTK" lite is crazy though, one book can be completed in a day, the other more like 6 months reasonably. My issue with the RTK1 method in short is "The return on investment is not good enough for X months work". Kana takes a day or two with any method, so I just don't care. Go nuts.

3) How far with RTK1 actually are you? You should know better than to even be comparing it with Remembering the Kana if you have finished it already

4) How far with RTK2 actually are you? That book is mostly shunned even on this forum and people almost always recommend learning vocabulary with the words in them to learn the readings. Learning onyomi separately is such a stupid idea that I don't even know where to begin (but I'm happy to discuss that with you if you want). I haven't been talking about RTK2 at all, but if you have finished it I'd be delighted to hear your opinion on it.

5) Rote Memorization - I guess this depends on definition, and in fairness you sort of "got me" there. When people "study Kanji by rote" that usually implies writing them out lots of times until they remember them. I don't encourage that kind of rote memorization. My method for studying Kanji individually is "don't".

Anyway I'm hesitant to go into different methods because there are probably better ones out there for what I did, but I guess its only fair I offer up some sort of alternative even if only for the sake of discussion. My method for learning Kanji individually is "don't":

1) Learn words, all my new vocabulary goes into my Anki deck ideally along with one or two example sentences. All in Kanji of course, reading on the back.
2) Do reviews normally
3) Read as much as possible and keep adding as much new material as possible. Your vocab will be re-reviewed in the real world lots too.
4) IF somehow you keep getting confused between two words or characters, type them out both next to each other and compare. The difference tends to be very obvious very fast and easy to remember.

That's about it. I think if you somehow start to feel overwhelmed at some point and it gets too difficult then its a good idea to do a bit of writing to firm that up. But you really don't have to do much or spend much time doing this and don't need flashcards that will take up time later - the best way I found was to get a Japanese DS game like Kakitori-kun and go through that, learning the vocabulary along the way too. Learning new vocabulary at every opportunity is very helpful in your long term Japanese study too since its by far and away the most difficult part.

Oh, and there was a time when I wanted to learn a few characters individually actually when I was finishing up for the JLPT 2 exam -- I just added 3 sentences or vocabulary words into my Anki deck that had the character I wanted. That was it.

Basically what I'm advising is just don't study Kanji. Learn as much Japanese as possible and through natural exposure and flashcards Kanji will come easily, and after a while you will like Kanji because it makes new words far easier to remember.

Of course via this method ones writing ability will be terrible. If writing is important to you I'd still not bother learning to write until you have to, which will more than likely be far later in your studies and potentially years down the line. Besides there is far more to writing than RTK, the hard part is remembering which characters go where, more so than the strokes for any individual Kanji. So writing is something you would have to be learning again anyway, RTK1 won't do it for you.

NightSky Wrote:4) How far with RTK2 actually are you? That book is mostly shunned even on this forum and people almost always recommend learning vocabulary with the words in them to learn the readings. Learning onyomi separately is such a stupid idea that I don't even know where to begin (but I'm happy to discuss that with you if you want). I haven't been talking about RTK2 at all, but if you have finished it I'd be delighted to hear your opinion on it.

I'm sorry, but I have to jump in here... This is a mistake you've made before, on my thread in RTK 2&3, actually.

RTK2 the book does teach you readings through vocabulary. They're all reasonably common words. You study the readings through the compound words you're given. What it also does though, is introduce the readings in an order based around those kanji which have elements in them which give away their sound. The kunyomis are provided too. They are, however, separated from the onyomis, and are at the back of the book.

quark Wrote:

Vempele Wrote:

NightSky Wrote:Do I? What methods? I'm only really discussing Heisig, I don't think I've gone into much detail at all, if any, into other methods.

Maybe you should. In a universe with nothing but Heisig and pure rote memorization, Heisig doesn't suck. Some of the people you're arguing with seem to be living in that universe. You'd be doing them a huge favor.

Kanji Odyssey 2001 is a great method. You get the kanji, readings, meanings, stroke order, example vocabulary words, example sentences and workbooks all in one go. The vocabulary words get repeated over and over in the example sentences, so it's kind of like Anki in that you're getting constant exposure. There's absolutely no need to write the kanji out over and over again, although if a person wanted, writing out the example sentences could be very useful.
Another good method, and I think this is what Nightsky has been advocating - read, read, READ. Seeing the kanji being used in a real world application helps a LOT.
The most helpful thing in Heisig for me is that it demonstrated that the kanji are just made up of different parts. A person could very easily just learn the different radicals and move on from there.
Tofugu has a really good article asking about different kanji learning methods. http://www.tofugu.com/2010/03/26/questio...arn-kanji/
There's no need to live in a universe where the only options are Heisig or writing until your hand falls off.

Man I missed this post somehow, I think this is excellent. I didn't do Kanji Odyssey myself only because I didn't know it existed, and by the time I discovered it I was beyond it anyway. But from everything I've heard about it, it does sound really excellent.

Your post is better than the one I just wrote for sure!

Oh and I did mention it but probably didn't emphasise enough - read, Read, READ.

ktcgx Wrote:

NightSky Wrote:4) How far with RTK2 actually are you? That book is mostly shunned even on this forum and people almost always recommend learning vocabulary with the words in them to learn the readings. Learning onyomi separately is such a stupid idea that I don't even know where to begin (but I'm happy to discuss that with you if you want). I haven't been talking about RTK2 at all, but if you have finished it I'd be delighted to hear your opinion on it.

I'm sorry, but I have to jump in here... This is a mistake you've made before, on my thread in RTK 2&3, actually.

RTK2 the book does teach you readings through vocabulary. They're all reasonably common words. You study the readings through the compound words you're given. What it also does though, is introduce the readings in an order based around those kanji which have elements in them which give away their sound. The kunyomis are provided too. They are, however, separated from the onyomis, and are at the back of the book.

I absolutely believe Kanji readings should be learned through vocabulary. If that is the way RTK 2 book works then all the better. Though I think its makes more sense to be learning Kanji for the vocabulary you are learning rather than the other way around (trying to find vocabulary words to 'fit' the Kanji you want to study). Though either way has merit I suppose.

I don't know much about RTK2 (clearly!) so I'm not going to try and offer lots of opinions on it. My opinions in this thread are pretty much only aimed at RTK 1 (and 3?) =)

I'm one of those people that think that you should just dive in and start reading real/native material as soon as possible, and getting exposure to the language in real-world situations. Some people enjoy doing RTK and swear by it, and that's fine, but I think you have to consider the opportunity cost -- the months or even years it takes to finish RTK, versus using that time and energy to just gaining more exposure to the language.

I think my history with RTK is a bit interesting, as I'm Chinese-Australian, but my level in Chinese was (and still is) only intermediate at best. I remember around the beginning of 2008 getting really into RTK after reading AJATT, thinking it was absolutely the best thing since sliced bread, and that I would effectively "know" almost all the characters used in print (e.g. newspapers, magazines, websites etc) by the time I was done. I think this kind of excitement and fervour isn't uncommon for newcomers to RTK. I even remember raving to a friend about how this was the one true method of learning the Japanese language, of how much more superior it was compared to rote memorisation.

I breezed through the early portions of RTK thanks to the carry-over knowledge from Chinese. However, I think I ended up getting about two-thirds of the way through RTK1 before stopping, with the nagging realisation that I just wasn't finding a lot of this kanji knowledge all that useful. After all, I already knew how to write many Chinese characters, and I already knew how the writing system worked ... in the end it just didn't seem to be worth the time and effort to learn all these characters (sometimes again) in isolation, divorced from any meaningful context.

Looking back, I was incredibly naive in viewing RTK as some kind of magic bullet on the path to Japanese fluency. It's understandable, considering that as a beginner, you don't necessarily have a good reference point to judge how useful something like RTK will be in the long run. I absolutely believe that learners should study the writing system, and that they should understand that characters are composed of radicals and other sub-units with specific stroke order -- but on the other hand, I believe that familiarising oneself with the characters in isolation without any context or other information than a keyword might not be that helpful in the real world, even if it's just to familiarise themselves with what random characters look like. I feel that it's a kind of theoretical book knowledge, that just isn't as useful as getting actual exposure to the language and learning words and phrases. I feel the considerable time spent on RTK could be better directed towards learning to read the more common characters out there.

Also, I think knowing how to write characters by hand is heavily overrated (as a skill), considering how useful it is in the real world versus how much time it takes to learn. This is Japanese after all, you can use hiragana/katakana when you don't remember a kanji (unlike Chinese where you have to resort to an easier substitute character, or worse, pinyin).

As an aside, someone earlier in the thread mentioned how Chinese learners don't seem to bother with RTK (or similar methods). It's interesting how there seems to be an "island-ification" in terms of Japanese vs. Chinese learning when it comes to kanji/hanzi. You would think that good methods would become commonplace and widely shared, but that doesn't seem to be the case with RTK (yes, I'm aware of RTH). Most Chinese learners just learn characters the "old-fashioned" way, i.e. with no specific method that focuses on individual characters without context.

Anyway, I prefer the approach of just learning words and phrases as you encounter them, and learning unfamiliar kanji as you go. I really don't feel there is a need to learn kanji in isolation, nor do I really see a point in knowing all the possible information about a kanji either. If I can't write it, that's fine. So long as I can recognise it within a word or phrase in context, and know how to read it and what it means, then that's all that matters.

Again, I'm not saying that you shouldn't do RTK. If you use it or found it useful, that's fine. I just don't think it should be touted as a necessary step towards understanding Japanese, when you could be doing things which I believe are more useful, like learning vocabulary in context.

Of course, RTK isn't the be all and end all of Kanji learning, some people will find it incredibly useful, others, not so much.

Anyway, Nightsky, I've looked up a link for you where you can have a squizz through the RTK2 book. I think it might help you have a better idea of it. You should skip ahead to page 20, that's the start of the pure groups section.

http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kanji-...he+kanji+2

NightSky Wrote:I don't know much about RTK2 (clearly!) so I'm not going to try and offer lots of opinions on it. My opinions in this thread are pretty much only aimed at RTK 1 (and 3?) =)

For someone who has read about RTK for seven years (sorry, this might be misquoting), it seems strange that you don't know much about RTK2. Would it be unfair to assume that RTK is something you've read a lot about but maybe have less actual comprehension of?

Only putting it this way as there are things I've read about for years, but have very little practical understand of. It's easy to read the opinions of people for a long time and judge something without ever really looking into ti. People do it all the time. Very few people are honest about it, though.

Not trying to be rude. It's just that after you insinuated that ktcgx's experience with kanji being borderline comparable to retardation, I'd kind of assume by your own standards that after reading about RTK for years, and knowing exactly what it is (isn't this what you said?), that you would in fact know what it is.

It would be like someone saying they know everything about the first Star Wars trilogy but only really knowing much about the first and third movie...

Guoguodi Wrote:I'm one of those people that think that you should just dive in and start reading real/native material as soon as possible, and getting exposure to the language in real-world situations. Some people enjoy doing RTK and swear by it, and that's fine, but I think you have to consider the opportunity cost -- the months or even years it takes to finish RTK, versus using that time and energy to just gaining more exposure to the language.

I did the first volume of RTK in 14 days. The author of the book created the thing from scratch, without an electronic SRS, in something like a month.

If people are taking months and months and months to go through the initial exposure and process, and are not taking in any other Japanese, this is not a criticism of the book/method.

This is a huge misunderstanding of RTK, and a lot probably due to popular blogger like All Japanese All the Time, etc. Heisig himself was in Japan at the time of creating RTK. He didn't shut off all other Japanese exposure to the language to create his program. In fact he created it and got the most out of it in a much shorter time frame than most people who spend a year and more on it, and went on to learn as much Japanese as he could from Japanese children.

It would be nice is those people criticising RTK actually criticised RTK instead of basing the entire process on people who take a very long time to get through it all the while not exposing themselves to any other Japanese study (which seems like a strawman argument to me, but meh).

If you're limiting your Japanese study to only RTK volume one, for more than six months, without ANY other Japanese study, then it's your own fault. No where in RTK does it say to not study any other Japanese, nor does it tell you to take so god damn long.

There are valid criticisms of RTK. I just wish people would use them instead of judging the process on how other people use it. If I go to a certain university and screw around the entire time, is this is a valid criticism against the value of the university?