I've started trying to learn with Tae Kim's Grammar Guide but even though it has a lot of good information, nothing really sticks. By the time I do the exercises I pretty much forgot everything he said and I don't really know how to review what I learned from there.

I'm not at the point where I would use what I learn from there often so do I get a flashcard pack (if there is one)?

[s0apgun]

I'll just tell you a little about my experience. I read through all of Tae Kim's guide and thought wow that's a lot of information how will I remember this stuff? So, after that I did the Tae Kim Anki deck, which helped enforce several things but still its not the greatest deck to study from.

Then I read Japanese: The Manga Way and I've been able to understand and remember things from this book better than anything I did with Tae Kim or Anki. Its really a great book and breaks things down with excellent explanations. Most of the time I had these moments when I read it where it was like hey that clicks now!

Simply, because it made sense and was easy to understand. My brain didn't have any issues with memorizing many grammar patterns after that. I still use it to refer to a certain usage if I'm having an issue because it has a great glossary.

So give that book a try, if its not your thing start flash carding your Tae Kim knowledge preferably by making your own deck so there isn't a bunch of confusing mistakes to sort through.

I've never done Tae Kim (no auidio, I don't trust amateurs), so I cann't help you there.

But here's something for beginners.

GRAMMAR
begin with:
Hugo Japanese In Three Months.doc
It's probably the best introduction to Japanese grammar that comes with audio.
The original is romaji only. This is an enhanced edition, it is more learner friendly in many ways.
It is a .doc file written in kanji-spaced hiragana-English, no romaji. The explanations are in clear, plain English.
It comes with line-by-line audio by Japanese speakers.

Another good introductory grammar with audio is 'Visualizing Japanese Grammar' - here it's packed in !GrVJGr.7z.
As to Japanese verbs - 'Essential Verbs' by coscom is ideal.


Line-by-line audio and parallel texts kanji-spaced hiragana-English
+ explanations in plain English are to be found here:

http://users.bestweb.net/%7Esiom/martian_mountain/JCP/
Mirror:
http://rawtoast.gaia.feralhosting.com/mi...untain/JCP

Files:
J 00 Hugo Japanese In Three Months.7z

!GrVJGr.7z.001
!GrVJGr.7z.002
!GrVJGr.7z.003

!EssentialJVerbs.7z.001
!EssentialJVerbs.7z.002
!EssentialJVerbs.7z.003
!EssentialJVerbs.7z.004
!EssentialJVerbs.7z.005

Texts in:
JCtexts.7z

Just take notes, do exercises and cross reference with other sources until it sticks. Look back at the explanation if you're really stuck, but basic grammar isn't really something that I would consider to be very suited to flashcards. Being able to study from texts without instantly forgetting what one's read is a vital skill and I don't think always resorting to things like Anki as a crutch is a good idea.

I had this same problem and I'm gonna second Japanese the Manga Way as a good alternative. It's still somewhat bare-bones compared to an actual textbook so you're gonna have to complement it with native material to make sure everything sticks but it's a lot easier to stomach than Tae Kim, in my opinion.

If you'd rather get a more complete approach then Genki is good but to me it's just boring and can't stand reading it for long.

This site also helped me as a quick reference guide http://amaterasu.tindabox.net/guide/ but I don't think it's thorough enough to study from.

I also recommend Japanese the Manga Way. It's a great grammar book that is interesting to read. You could use it on its own, or work through Tae Kim's guide using it as a supplement.


The only thing I don't likw about JtMW is the romaji...

I vaguely remembered stuff from his guide the. Reinforced that with japanese media is song lyrics and talk variety shows. U dont have to memorize it. Just get a general vague idea aNd then Solidify the details etc etc from exposure. it's just really common grammar especially the stuff in the beginning. i see no need to make anki cards or hand-write it etc etc. That's just a waste of time in my opinion. it's common just expose yourself.

ryanjmack Wrote:I also recommend Japanese the Manga Way. It's a great grammar book that is interesting to read. You could use it on its own, or work through Tae Kim's guide using it as a supplement.


The only thing I don't likw about JtMW is the romaji...

JtMW uses kanji and kana. Do you not like the presence of roumaji under the kanji?

I got through the entirety of Tae Kim's grammar guide by just making my own Anki deck as I went. Yeah, a lot of the time I would have some trouble remembering what I had studied the day before, but that just meant I would fail it in Anki and get some repetition for a few days to make it stick. Or a few weeks. Depending.

I've never tried JtMW so I can't vouch for how much better it is or isn't, but if you like Tae Kim like I do (plus free & online), then it's definitely possible to get everything to stick, you just need some patience in Anki for failures and repetition, and don't be afraid to take it slow, since Japanese grammar is pretty hard to digest.

It should also be noted that I used Nihonshock's cheat sheets (the sponsor way at the top by recent topics) to reinforce the basic stuff, since it's all laid out in an easy-to-reference summary. And it makes all the simple conjugations really easy to define because not only are the dictionary form [~U] and stem form [~I] given labels, but you also have the [~A], [~TE], [~TA], and [~OU] forms for all the verbs, which makes remembering Tae Kim's complicated conjugations ("take the negative form of the verb and remove ない"? No just say [~A]) a lot more simple.

I'm about half way through Tae Kim, and I have gone through Genki I~II before as well.

Doing Tae Kim alone makes it difficult to remember because there is very little reinforcement and later chapters rarely incorporate concepts from previous chapters. It's a short and sweet quick reference to general grammer, not an all inclusive course.

The shared Anki deck is....not so good. If you go down that route expect to modify it heavily or create your own. Many cards have items clozed that have nothing to do with the concept illustrated, and the production cards give you little or no context as to what is being covered. There are too many right answers, and you just end up memorizing the sentence itself, which defeats the purpose IMO.

I also have Japanese the Manga way book, and have read through a few chapters. I will probably dedicate time to finishing it after getting through 2K and my reps return to a reasonable level.

I don't think that there is one end-all-be-all resource for learning grammar and wrapping your mind around the differences with your native language. Much practice and repetition is needed, and I think multiple resources need to be looked at.

[s0apgun]

I'm gonna offer up another alternative that I read daily. User yamasv on Lang-8 makes excellent entries about Japanese grammar every day. I've saved a lot of the entries in a text document because they are very good explanations. I check Lang-8 frequently and there's always a new post by him so its a good idea to add him as a friend if you also use that website.

http://lang-8.com/605858

I'm trying out Japanese the Manga Way and it's not bad so far. Is there any way to review what you learned there? Are there any practice exercises?

[s0apgun]

There are no practice exercises. However, user uisukii on here made an Anki Deck for the book if you want to review the grammar points.

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=10234

I switched for a couple of days to JtMW after going through TK's guide basic and some essential lessons, and I couldn't bear JtMW, lol!

Being used to TK's style, I found that JtMW talks too much. I also found that what I've already learned spans a big part of the book, but with more details and additional related stuff that I wasn't really fond of knowing (maybe I'm mistaken about this).

I agree with others in that TK's leaves you desiring more examples and sometimes explanations which means learned material is hard to stick. So now I'll try to use learned grammar in Lang-8 posts and try to get into reading native materials.

EDIT: Something I felt the need to mention is that TK's guide can really be annoying and even make things a little difficult when it comes to explaining challenging grammar points. For example, I suffered while studying の and it's different usages from it.
So maybe I'm telling you to stay away, lol.

I see lang-8 brought up a lot. That's mostly production though and I don't feel like I'm at that level yet to be writing posts in Japanese besides generic simple sentences.

learningkanji Wrote:I'm trying out Japanese the Manga Way and it's not bad so far. Is there any way to review what you learned there? Are there any practice exercises?

There is: start reading some actual manga known for relatively low difficulty, e.g. Yotsubato. Or any other "easy" reading or listening material. You'll see the grammar points you've learned over and over again, guaranteed Cheat sheet highly recommended. And put up your frustration shields because obviously you'll also encounter plenty of unfamiliar grammar and vocab. Start with graded readers if you want to avoid this as much as possible in the beginning.

Maybe it works for other people but I've always found "practice exercises" to be boring and mostly pointless. Using new knowledge in a meaningful way reinforces much more strongly. Just be prepared for the friction because the practice material will never smoothly match the study material.

undead_saif Wrote:I switched for a couple of days to JtMW after going through TK's guide basic and some essential lessons, and I couldn't bear JtMW, lol!

Being used to TK's style, I found that JtMW talks too much. I also found that what I've already learned spans a big part of the book, but with more details and additional related stuff that I wasn't really fond of knowing (maybe I'm mistaken about this).

I know what you mean but I like it because sometimes all you need is one sentence to help understand a grammar point you're having trouble with. A week or two ago when I did passive forms in Tae Kim's the explanation was:
"Passive verbs are verbs that are done to the (passive) subject. Unlike English style of writing which discourages the use of the passive form, passive verbs in Japanese are often used in essays and articles."

On the other hand a quick glance at JtMW and it explained it like this:
The passive form of a verb is used to speak of the subject being on the receiving end of the action instead of doing the action.

undead_saif Wrote:For example, I suffered while studying の and it's different usages from it.
So maybe I'm telling you to stay away, lol.

'

You're not alone... It happened to me too haha

uisukii Wrote:JtMW uses kanji and kana. Do you not like the presence of roumaji under the kanji?

Sometimes I catch myself reading the roumaji subconsciously just because it's there

Savii Wrote:There is: start reading some actual manga known for relatively low difficulty, e.g. Yotsubato. Or any other "easy" reading or listening material. You'll see the grammar points you've learned over and over again, guaranteed Cheat sheet highly recommended. And put up your frustration shields because obviously you'll also encounter plenty of unfamiliar grammar and vocab.

It's funny because I bought よつばと！ the other day and I was so excited when it arrived, but when I opened it up I really didn't understand much of it -_-... But I made sure not to get discouraged because I didn't expect reading my first manga to be easy. Will that cheatsheet help you get through it? Did you ever have problems understanding some of the font they used in the book?

ryanjmack Wrote:A week or two ago when I did passive forms in Tae Kim's the explanation was:
"Passive verbs are verbs that are done to the (passive) subject. Unlike English style of writing which discourages the use of the passive form, passive verbs in Japanese are often used in essays and articles."

On the other hand a quick glance at JtMW and it explained it like this:
The passive form of a verb is used to speak of the subject being on the receiving end of the action instead of doing the action.

Nice comparison, lol. I hope Tae don't read this , or maybe he should!

ryanjmack Wrote:It's funny because I bought よつばと！ the other day and I was so excited when it arrived, but when I opened it up I really didn't understand much of it -_-...

What about opening a translated version online while reading the Japanese one?

ryanjmack Wrote:

uisukii Wrote:JtMW uses kanji and kana. Do you not like the presence of roumaji under the kanji?

Sometimes I catch myself reading the roumaji subconsciously just because it's there

I do the same with furigana often, the worst part is it is often for words I'm already aware of the readings but will find myself reading something then rereading the section, double-checking the furigana just to make sure 今日 or 公園 or 行く hasn't suddenly changed to irregular readings. Actually, the worst part is when the furigana isn't there I tend to read faster and tend not to really think about second guessing readings, lol.

uisukii Wrote:I do the same with furigana often, the worst part is it is often for words I'm already aware of the readings but will find myself reading something then rereading the section, double-checking the furigana just to make sure 今日 or 公園 or 行く hasn't suddenly changed to irregular readings.

Lol, 今日 normally uses the irregular reading, you know. Also, there was this one time when:
Original text: 行ってくる
My intuition: いってくる
Machine-generated furigana: おこなってくる
Automatic WWWJDIC lookup: 行る (a long-ass entry with 16 definitions)

Got nothing on 公園, sorry.

ryanjmack Wrote:It's funny because I bought よつばと！ the other day and I was so excited when it arrived, but when I opened it up I really didn't understand much of it -_-... But I made sure not to get discouraged because I didn't expect reading my first manga to be easy. Will that cheatsheet help you get through it? Did you ever have problems understanding some of the font they used in the book?

I get よつばと out every now and then, and each time I find that I can read and understand a little bit more of it. It's really encouraging to see all the vocab and grammer studying paying off like that.

As to the font, I'll admit that I struggle to understand some of it, particularly the "squiggly" one they often use for よつば herself.

[RawToast]

Savii Wrote:Cheat sheet highly recommended.

Little did I know there's an updated set of sheets

I completed Tae Kim Basic and Essential in recognition (read the full sentence and pass if you get the meaning), but ended up suspending a few cards. I didn't like the vocabulary used nor that certain cards hard 'sounds weird' on them! Likewise I found the guide's descriptions lacking and found Genki and the DoBJ far more useful.

After being discouraged by Tae Kim I completed the Genki I deck in recognition mode. In addition, I completed a portion of uisukii's DoBJ deck which helped with the JLPT tests grammar questions.

I found it useful to have cards from different books covering a grammar point. A different example sentence or explanation may just work better for you.

Woodgar Wrote:I get よつばと out every now and then, and each time I find that I can read and understand a little bit more of it. It's really encouraging to see all the vocab and grammer studying paying off like that.

As to the font, I'll admit that I struggle to understand some of it, particularly the "squiggly" one they often use for よつば herself.

The squiggly font is the one I'm talking about it, it's tough to understand. I guess it'll come with time. But I definitely agree with you, every once in a while I'll pick it up and see how I'm improving. Eventually I'll be able to read/understand most of it...

undead_saif Wrote:

ryanjmack Wrote:A week or two ago when I did passive forms in Tae Kim's the explanation was:
"Passive verbs are verbs that are done to the (passive) subject. Unlike English style of writing which discourages the use of the passive form, passive verbs in Japanese are often used in essays and articles."

On the other hand a quick glance at JtMW and it explained it like this:
The passive form of a verb is used to speak of the subject being on the receiving end of the action instead of doing the action.

Nice comparison, lol. I hope Tae don't read this , or maybe he should!

I mean no disrespect to Tae I really like his guide and appreciate his work put in to it; however there are some things in understanding foreign languages (and life too) that require a different view/explanation/outlook etc. That's why I like to cross reference the same grammar point across a couple of sources.

undead_saif Wrote:

ryanjmack Wrote:It's funny because I bought よつばと！ the other day and I was so excited when it arrived, but when I opened it up I really didn't understand much of it -_-...

What about opening a translated version online while reading the Japanese one?

That's a good idea, I'll definitely give it a go!