Dear all,

I am proud to announce that a beta version of iiKanji is finally out!
(Spoiler: http://benkyo.co/iikanji)

For those that have or are about to finish RTK, this is something that's going to make your day, so pay close attention.

iiKanji is an optimal method to learn the readings of the kanji *after* you have learned their meaning and writing. This means that this method is suited for people that have finished RTK and for Chinese, who can recognize almost all of Japanese kanji thanks to their similarity to Chinese hanzi.

It is basically an SRS flashcard method that will teach you 1 kanji reading at a time through an example sentence containing it, but with 2 constraints:

1. Kanji readings are learned in the order that maximizes the number of Japanese words you are able to read with each new addition.
2. In each flashcard, all the kanji and readings used (example sentence, anchor word) except the one being learned with this flashcard have been previously learned. This way, you can focus on learning just that reading (divide and conquer...).

The current release is free, but may become a paid service in the future, so one more reason to try it now. I hope to have a lot of feedback from you, fellow Japanese kanji freaks, and wish from the bottom of my heart that this method will finally be able to address in a truly efficient way the last pillar of the study of kanji: their reading.

Try it here: http://benkyo.co/iikanji

It's great so far, but you should give a translation of the sentence.

Taoromera Wrote:The current release is free, but may become a paid service in the future, so one more reason to try it now.

This is your clearly your obvious intention from the start based on how the site is worded; not that this is fundamentally bad. Just don't try to play it off here. That said the project doesn't look too bad.

Cool. I'll have to check this out later. Thanks for all your work. I like the 'ii' instead of the ubiquitous 'i' in product names.
I'm not sure it'll be so great for hanzi if it's actually kanji, though.

I have a quick question, which may sound really stupid, but your site includes all the new Joyo kanji, right? (Just checking, sorry!)

EDIT: 1. Will there be an android app too?
2. I think that translations of the sentences in the study page would be helpful, especially for beginners, but also when the grammar starts getting more difficult. Actually, just for anyone really.

EDIT 2: I think an option to display furigana over the sentence would be good. I've only gone through about 30 kanji, but already I've got 方 with both the kata and hou readings. I know when to use which one, but people just starting out probably wouldn't, so for them, I think that option would be useful/ important.

It looks interesting. I've been testing it out a bit. One suggestion would be to have some way to easily indicate which Kanji you don't want to study. Clicking 'I've already mastered this' while reviewing them is fine for a handful, but fairly tedious for hundreds.

ryuudou Wrote:This is your clearly your obvious intention from the start based on how the site is worded; not that this is fundamentally bad. Just don't try to play it off here.

It is, and I'm not hiding it. We have no clear plans for iiKanji's future. We don't even know if people are going to like it and find it as efficient as we expect. But if it proved to be a good service, it will need some tweaks that will imply a lot of work. In this case, we will probably ask for a retribution.
iiKanji is still in a beta phase, so will remain free for while, though.

ryuudou Wrote:That said the project doesn't look too bad.

Thanks! We are really excited to have it tested by a core group of kanji students after all the work that has been put into it. Let me know your comments.

cae99v Wrote:It's great so far, but you should give a translation of the sentence.

Thanks for your feedback, cae99v. We actually believe it is best not to translate sentences in order to learn a language. We tried to use example sentences with a complexity adapted to the expected learner's level for each flashcard. That is, simple sentences for the first flashcards, and more and more complex sentences as you learn more flashcards.

tashippy Wrote:Cool. I'll have to check this out later. Thanks for all your work. I like the 'ii' instead of the ubiquitous 'i' in product names.
I'm not sure it'll be so great for hanzi if it's actually kanji, though.

Thanks for your kind comment, tashippy!
No, I don't think you will be able to use it to learn hanzi. I guess the concept could be adapted to learn hanzi, but I'm totally ignorant of Chinese, so someone else will have to do the job.

ktcgx Wrote:I have a quick question, which may sound really stupid, but your site includes all the new Joyo kanji, right? (Just checking, sorry!)

Yes, ktcgx, iiKanji includes all the new jouyou kanji (unless some have been added recently which I'm not aware of). Namely, 2136 kanji and their 4383 jouyou readings.

ktcgx Wrote:EDIT: 1. Will there be an android app too?

The app is a webapp, which means that you only need a web browser to use it. You can use it from your computer, iPhone, or Android smartphone.

ktcgx Wrote:2. I think that translations of the sentences in the study page would be helpful, especially for beginners, but also when the grammar starts getting more difficult. Actually, just for anyone really.

As I posted earlier, we believe that not providing the translation of the sentences is actually better to learn a language. The problem here may be that the example sentences are not simple enough for the first flashcards. I take note.

ktcgx Wrote:EDIT 2: I think an option to display furigana over the sentence would be good. I've only gone through about 30 kanji, but already I've got 方 with both the kata and hou readings. I know when to use which one, but people just starting out probably wouldn't, so for them, I think that option would be useful/ important.

You are totally right. I was actually expecting this kind of feedback
As putting furigana over the sentences implies quite a lot of work, I was waiting for someone really needing it. We'll work on it.

jasberg Wrote:It looks interesting. I've been testing it out a bit. One suggestion would be to have some way to easily indicate which Kanji you don't want to study. Clicking 'I've already mastered this' while reviewing them is fine for a handful, but fairly tedious for hundreds.

I agree, jasberg. We'll think of a simple and easily implementable way of letting the learner discard a lot of flashcards at once.
Thanks for your feedback.

I just hit "私" and, I don't want to sound rude, but are you sure that the most frequent reading is watakushi?

ktcgx Wrote:I just hit "私" and, I don't want to sound rude, but are you sure that the most frequent reading is watakushi?

ワタシ is actually not an official jouyou reading. The correct reading for 私 when used as the subject of a sentence is ワタクシ.
In spoken Japanese you hear "ワタシ" all the time, but in read Japanese "ワタシ" does not (officially) exist.

Taoromera Wrote:

ktcgx Wrote:I just hit "私" and, I don't want to sound rude, but are you sure that the most frequent reading is watakushi?

ワタシ is actually not an official jouyou reading. The correct reading for 私 when used as the subject of a sentence is ワタクシ.
In spoken Japanese you hear "ワタシ" all the time, but in read Japanese "ワタシ" does not (officially) exist.

hmmmm, according to http://www.coscom.co.jp/japanesekanji/newjoyokanji.html , it has been added as a reading.

But thanks for clearing that up about print reading vs spoken reading.

ktcgx Wrote:hmmmm, according to http://www.coscom.co.jp/japanesekanji/newjoyokanji.html , it has been added as a reading.

But thanks for clearing that up about print reading vs spoken reading.

Oh! I think the changes in the jouyou readings have not been included in iiKanji. The kanji list is correct, but the last reading modifications have not been implemented. Thanks for pointing this out.
That's why I wanted feedback from you guys

Taoromera Wrote:

ktcgx Wrote:hmmmm, according to http://www.coscom.co.jp/japanesekanji/newjoyokanji.html , it has been added as a reading.

But thanks for clearing that up about print reading vs spoken reading.

Oh! I think the changes in the jouyou readings have not been included in iiKanji. The kanji list is correct, but the last reading modifications have not been implemented. Thanks for pointing this out.
That's why I wanted feedback from you guys

Well, as long as you're happy for us to be nit-picky... the first 分かる you encounter (less than 30 kanji in) has been kanjified, but that reading hasn't been taught yet....

ktcgx Wrote:Well, as long as you're happy for us to be nit-picky... the first 分かる you encounter (less than 30 kanji in) has been kanjified, but that reading hasn't been taught yet....

Thanks! Corrected.

I haven't looked too much at frequency statistics, but 等 seemed to appear much earlier than I would have expected. In addition, I may be wrong, but in this sentence：そのホテルにはプールやテニスコート等がある。, wouldn't the reading be など？ Granted, that's a reading of 等, but kanjified and also not the target reading of とう which is displayed for the card.

There's a problem with #41, the first reading of 行 is listed as okonou, which is fine, but the sentence contains 2 行s, and the second one (ikimasu) has been incorrectly kanjified. Or at least, I think that we haven't yet been taught the iku reading, but that brings up another point: I can't see anyway to see a list of kanji and their readings that you've already been taught/ added to study/ said you already know them. I think such a page would be a useful addition.

EDIT: Also with #46, the kanji is for kuru (come) but the word given in the sentence is konai, again, with no sentence furigana, and if the user really is a beginner straight from RTK1, they wouldn't know that the negative of kuru is actually read konai...

Is that a typo or is it really listed as "okonou" instead of "okonau"? (Or are you in the Edo-period

yudantaiteki Wrote:Is that a typo or is it really listed as "okonou" instead of "okonau"? (Or are you in the Edo-period

It's probably a typo of mine... I'm very sleepy today... :p

EDIT: Definitely a typo on my part

jasberg Wrote:I haven't looked too much at frequency statistics, but 等 seemed to appear much earlier than I would have expected.

Well, that's why a detailed corpus analysis is helpful in determining the optimal reading order
I was sometimes surprised as well when I looked at the results the first time, but I double checked them, and there doesn't seem to be any errors.

jasberg Wrote:In addition, I may be wrong, but in this sentence：そのホテルにはプールやテニスコート等がある。, wouldn't the reading be など？ Granted, that's a reading of 等, but kanjified and also not the target reading of とう which is displayed for the card.

など is actually not an official jouyou reading of 等. The jouyou readings for 等 are ひと-しい and トウ.
And as is the case for 私 and its reading わたくし, you almost never hear とう for 等 in spoken Japanese. In brief, the 'correct' reading/pronounciation of 等 would be トウ, although in spoken Japanese everyone pronounces it など.

ktcgx Wrote:There's a problem with #41, the first reading of 行 is listed as okonou, which is fine, but the sentence contains 2 行s, and the second one (ikimasu) has been incorrectly kanjified. Or at least, I think that we haven't yet been taught the iku reading, but that brings up another point: I can't see anyway to see a list of kanji and their readings that you've already been taught/ added to study/ said you already know them. I think such a page would be a useful addition.

The reading いく for 行 actually appears in #14.
But yes, this definitely brings up the issue of being able to see the list of kanji readings already studied/mastered.
I take note and think about implementing this feature. Thanks.

ktcgx Wrote:EDIT: Also with #46, the kanji is for kuru (come) but the word given in the sentence is konai, again, with no sentence furigana, and if the user really is a beginner straight from RTK1, they wouldn't know that the negative of kuru is actually read konai...

I actually expect, and would put it as a condition, to have an intermediate level of spoken Japanese before going for the kanji readings. iiKanji's method works at its best if the user already knows the anchor words used to slip each kanji reading into your memory (the anchor words are the most frequent words containing the kanji reading being learned). Otherwise, you have to make the extra effort of also learning the anchor word itself, so you can not just focus on the one kanji reading being learned.

Based on my personal experience, I thought that anyone who had gone through RTK1 and was ready to start studying the kanji readings had at least a beginner-advanced or intermediate level of spoken Japanese. Otherwise, it's only my personal opinion, but I suggest spending some time studying basic grammar before. It will prove more useful than the reading of the kanji!

Taoromera Wrote:

ktcgx Wrote:EDIT: Also with #46, the kanji is for kuru (come) but the word given in the sentence is konai, again, with no sentence furigana, and if the user really is a beginner straight from RTK1, they wouldn't know that the negative of kuru is actually read konai...

I actually expect, and would put it as a condition, to have an intermediate level of spoken Japanese before going for the kanji readings. iiKanji's method works at its best if the user already knows the anchor words used to slip each kanji reading into your memory (the anchor words are the most frequent words containing the kanji reading being learned). Otherwise, you have to make the extra effort of also learning the anchor word itself, so you can not just focus on the one kanji reading being learned.

Based on my personal experience, I thought that anyone who had gone through RTK1 and was ready to start studying the kanji readings had at least a beginner-advanced or intermediate level of spoken Japanese. Otherwise, it's only my personal opinion, but I suggest spending some time studying basic grammar before. It will prove more useful than the reading of the kanji!

Hmmmm I think a lot have, but conceivably, some wouldn't have studied very much grammar/vocab by the time they have finished RTK1, so I think to maximise your site's appeal, and thereby get more customers, you may want to think about how you could also cater to beginners. Of course, that's just an idea of what you could do.

ktcgx Wrote:Hmmmm I think a lot have, but conceivably, some wouldn't have studied very much grammar/vocab by the time they have finished RTK1, so I think to maximise your site's appeal, and thereby get more customers, you may want to think about how you could also cater to beginners. Of course, that's just an idea of what you could do.

I appreciate, thank you
Let's see what other learners say. If other people come up with the same suggestion, I will take action.
iiKanji targets a very narrow niche of learners who, like me, completed RTK1 and didn't have an efficient and organized method to learn the kanji readings. I wouldn't want to sacrifice efficiency just to get more users