I do my best to use the words, but like you said I sometimes just feel rude or awkward using them.

It has always bothered me also when I come across a verb or noun I don't know in conversation and ask for it in Japanese. Only to be given a katakana version of the same word. I usually pry deeper because usually there are older use words hiding under these borrowed words. I like to learn them, it might make me sound a little strange, but I like to at least know these items.

dtcamero Wrote:

dabrowskiowski Wrote:A really funky part of living in Japan is using the Katakana borrowed words.

Ya I used to have huge issues with loan words. as a native English speaking westerner whenever I used these words with a japanese person I felt like I was putting on a bad Japanese accent speaking English. It felt incredibly rude to be honest... Like making fun of these people for speaking engrish... Something which I am obviously loathe to do as a person speaking their language with frequent mistakes.

But after a short while in Japan it dawned on me that if you try using a proper English pronounciation of an English word Japanese people usually have no idea what you're taking about. Not a clue. That is how they understand these words.

Hence their huge problems trying to speak English... They keep trying to speak in katakana.

Anyway after enough experiences like that I just said screw it and treat them like japanese words written in hiragana... because its not anything to do with English any longer really.

That's the key -- these words are Japanese, not English. The "proper" pronunciations of the words are the Japanese pronunciations. The Japanese people are not trying to use English and failing, they are using Japanese words which were borrowed from English. People who insist on either avoiding loan words as much as possible or pronouncing them as English are making a bad decision. It makes as much sense as using Chinese pronunciations for 漢語 terms.

dizmox Wrote:I'm not sure I agree... to me the difficulty ranking (easiest first) goes writing < reading < listening = speaking, whereas I'd just consider keigo something that quickly becomes second nature if you have to use it daily.

When yudantaiteki mentions politeness being difficult, I don't think that just means keigo, but the more elusive "wording" (言葉遣い). This is definitely not as easy as keigo, and requires deep cultural knowledge that has to be accumulated over years.

Think of a phrase like「お招き頂きありがとうございます」which basically any Japanese person knows use to when invited to someone's house for the first time. Sure, you could say「誘って下さってありがとうございます」and the meaning would get across, but it definitely wouldn't be the correct polite wording to use.

Acquiring natural wording is an immensely time-consuming process since there are set phrases in Japanese for a much wider variety of situations than other languages. And even if there is no set phrase for a certain situation, careful wording that cannot be understood in a negative way (Japanese people are very sensitive to this) is critical. Of course, one could debate whether this is a language or cultural skill, but such a distinction wouldn't be helpful since it's quite difficult to separate the two, especially for a language like Japanese with rigid, culturally-determined linguistic norms.

I've seen people claim before that keigo is easy to pick up automatically or that it becomes "second nature" but I don't buy it. Anything can become second nature if you study and practice it enough, but even native speakers have to study keigo. It's an immensely complicated system with all kinds of small variations and shades of meaning, and being able to understand it and use it well in both speech and writing is one of the biggest challenges in learning the language. I personally think it's harder than the writing system, although the writing system is certainly a close second.

Part of the difficulty is that the huge amount of individual and regional variation means that you often have to scramble to conform your usage to what other people are doing. Using language that is way too polite is sometimes just as bad as using language that is too casual, because (as a foreigner) it sends the same message -- you don't know what you're doing.

[Zgarbas]

I just finished reading a keigo guide written for natives, which always starts with examples of keigo used incorrectly by the guy's business associates, if not everybody he knows . Not to mention the fact that there are so many different rules that don't really come to you naturally (like what to say when the door opens inwards vs. outwards) that it gets pretty crazy.

.

Codexus Wrote:It's difficult due to all the kanji you have to learn.
It's also easy thanks to the kanji helping with the meaning of the words.

It's both a blessing and a curse

Summarized well, but I wouldn't disregard the difficulty of initially getting used to Japanese sentence structure for an English native. Aside from that though it's all downhill because of RTK.

Arupan Wrote:

vileru Wrote:...

And I don't really think anyone would ever say something like お招き頂きありがとうございます if they get invited to someone's house. Maybe if it's an answer to a written invitation yes, but probably noone would say the same in a real situation. 誘ってくれてありがとう（ございます） would probably be the most frequent.

I admit that my experience is limited since most of the Japanese homes I've been invited to are those of my in-laws, and most of the other situations I've heard the phrase used were quite formal (graduations, receptions, formal dinners, and so on).

Nonetheless, it seems like the standard phrase for formal situations (e.g. first time visiting the house of an in-law, boss, professor, etc.). I wouldn't be surprised if it were common for elderly people and housewives to use it in less formal situations as well. (On the subject of Japanese housewives, observing a group of them is quite amusing. They speak so politely even though they're all secretly competing against each other!).

I always felt like one of the hardest parts of learning Japanese is how dissimilar the words are to English. I find that makes them hard to memorize, and even to create mnemonics for.

I studied French and Spanish in the past, and those languages were really simple to acquire vocabulary in. Kind of like English, only with slightly funky spelling and pronunciation.

Ironically, that's where kanji makes Japanese easier to learn. Because trying to equate "gymnasium" to "taiikukan" is maddeningly difficult. But once you see the kanji, it makes sense, and your brain can make the connection. For me, that's why it's so important to learn the kanji first.

There are two factors that make Japanese harder than most other languages, for westerners:
1. lack of familiarity (with the language itself, and with the Kana and Kanji).
2. the volume of characters/readings of characters used in the writing system.

There's a possible third, if you don't live in Japan: lack of an immersion environment. You're not likely to encounter any Japanese by accident, living outside of Japan.

When it comes to official studies, like the one most people cite from the US military (with the 2200+ hours), there's also a fourth factor: lack of a personal interest. So I wouldn't just take what those studies say as a general truth that applies to everyone. Just because Japanese is harder to learn than Russian or Hebrew for most of your countrymen, doesn't mean it's harder for you too. Your love or lackthereof of a culture is a very important factor.

On the other hand, the grammar and pronunciation are relatively straight forward.

When people emphasis kanji/characters making Japanese difficult I tend to feel as though that I must be studying a different Japanese. Sure, the handful of different radicals to get used to are more time consuming than a relatively simple alphabet, but the kanji being the most difficult aspect of Japanese? Please.

I find it rather odd people going on to insinuate how simple gramatical aspects of Japanese are. It sounds a little naive to me. As though an over reliance of text-books or something has rendered the entire structural aspect of the language to a selection of particals and word order. Completely avoiding the overbearing fact that grammar also covers coming across as a naive; using similar stuctures and patterns, a lot of which takes years to get used to the thousands upon thousands of words you have to internalise. The vast majority which something like kanji makes a hell of a lot easier to relate to.

Kanji are nice; countless homophones and nuanced words with a very similar meaning but used only in certain patterns and contexts, not so much. A lacking base of shared and similar cognates with the likes of English; means you can't just "wing it". That's also grammar. If you think that is simple then you're probably being decieved by a misjudged perception of your handle on the langauge.



But that's merely personal opinion, comparing a Romance langauge to Japanese. A grain of salt.

uisukii Wrote:When people emphasis kanji/characters making Japanese difficult I tend to feel as though that I must be studying a different Japanese. Sure, the handful of different radicals to get used to are more time consuming than a relatively simple alphabet, but the kanji being the most difficult aspect of Japanese? Please.

Does the fact that an awful lot of people disagree with you dissuade you at all? Plus, you phrase this as if mastering kanji is mostly about memorizing a few radicals. Do you actually know Japanese? Because that sounds like the words of someone who has just started to get used to kanji and now has the naive impression that the road ahead is easy.

But, you seem to imply that you are quite good at Japanese, so is it just childish bragging? "This thing that's difficult for most people? Hah, easy as pie."

(Edit: This post probably sounds a bit bitchy... but I really think you sound disingenuous here. The difference between the kanji and a relatively simple alphabet goes well beyond being slightly more time consuming.)

Not only that, but people in most other countries have at least agreed on the number of symbols that compose their alphabet. That japanese natives have been unable to do so should at least give you a hint about the inherent difficulty of writing/reading the language.

Although I agree with uisukii somewhat, I do believe kanji take a lot more time to become literate in. Even so, they're not as difficult as some people make them out to be. Although I am what some people would call a beginner (~N3 level) I think that with a good study plan (which I didn't have) Japanese could be really quite easy. All you need is time and motivation. The kanji aren't incredibly difficult, just time-consuming. The grammar can be difficult, but the near lack of conjugations makes it easier to anyone who's studied a romance language. Vocabulary is somewhat difficult due to homophones and nuance etc. but lack of gender and the addition of kanji to help with meaning makes it a little easier.
So although in my unprofessional opinion, Japanese isn't as difficult as its reputation, it is very, very time consuming. So keep that in mind.

Tzadeck Wrote:

uisukii Wrote:When people emphasis kanji/characters making Japanese difficult I tend to feel as though that I must be studying a different Japanese. Sure, the handful of different radicals to get used to are more time consuming than a relatively simple alphabet, but the kanji being the most difficult aspect of Japanese? Please.

Does the fact that an awful lot of people disagree with you dissuade you at all? Plus, you phrase this as if mastering kanji is mostly about memorizing a few radicals. Do you actually know Japanese? Because that sounds like the words of someone who has just started to get used to kanji and now has the naive impression that the road ahead is easy.

But, you seem to imply that you are quite good at Japanese, so is it just childish bragging? "This thing that's difficult for most people? Hah, easy as pie."

(Edit: This post probably sounds a bit bitchy... but I really think you sound disingenuous here. The difference between the kanji and a relatively simple alphabet goes well beyond being slightly more time consuming.)

listen not to be confrontational here but I agree with Uisukii... kanji are really more of a psychological barrier once people become aware of the heisig method. After the first year the difference between getting used to japanese vs. a romance language is all about japanese grammar and vocabulary...

vocab is just a learning game and time... but japanese grammar is really tough. as in there really aren't good patterns, you just have to get used to saying the correct specific thing for every situation.

Is not just a psychological barrier. There are thousands of kanji and hundreds of them share the same reading, or do most of times, as there are kanji with 3 or 4 readings. In fact, it's so confusing that japanese natives are forced to write the kanji on the palm of their hand just to get understood by other natives in usual conversation. Also, it's not unusual to forget or mix kanji, even the most basic ones.

In fact, Japan stopped making official literacy statistics after the (very) poor results they got on the single one they did just after the second world war.

And if you still don't believe how horrible the situation truly is, read this article about the kanji kentei test, which exposes some of the worst aspects of japanese's infamous writing system.

http://www.tofugu.com/2011/04/06/kanji-k...nt-page-1/

uisukii Wrote:Completely avoiding the overbearing fact that grammar also covers coming across as a naive; using similar stuctures and patterns, a lot of which takes years to get used to the thousands upon thousands of words you have to internalise.

It sounds almost like you're looking to start an argument about semantics. Sure, that's what grammar is if you define it like that. What you're talking about, I'd be more inclined to call word choice, or diction. I think in the minds of most people, grammar means tenses, conjugations, and particles. Basically, the amount of rules you need to learn before you can move on to learning other things.

DrJones Wrote:Is not just a psychological barrier. There are thousands of kanji and hundreds of them share the same reading, or do most of times, as there are kanji with 3 or 4 readings. In fact, it's so confusing that japanese natives are forced to write the kanji on the palm of their hand just to get understood by other natives in usual conversation. Also, it's not unusual to forget or mix kanji, even the most basic ones.

In fact, Japan stopped making official literacy statistics after the (very) poor results they got on the single one they did just after the second world war.

And if you still don't believe how horrible the situation truly is, read this article about the kanji kentei test, which exposes some of the worst aspects of japanese's infamous writing system.

http://www.tofugu.com/2011/04/06/kanji-k...nt-page-1/

that post wwII literacy test was administered by a puppet government with the express objective of getting japan to abandon "those awful squiggles" as kanji were referred to by one american diplomat.

instead it was unfortunately revealed that literacy rates were higher in Japan than in america at the time.

Japanese newspapers continue to enjoy higher global circulation than all english language newspapers.
-The world's two most read newspapers are the Yomiuri and Asahi shinbun.
-Of the world's five most read newspapers, 4 are japanese language.
-The most widely read english language newspaper is #6, the Sun... arguably a tabloid rag.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_new...irculation

This is despite the fact that the number of Japanese speaking people in the world is one third of those that speak english.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lan...e_speakers

also, dude you can't seriously quote tofugu as a source...

I thought it was a given that the kanji kentei is hard. It seems more like a "prove your mettle" thing than a basic functionality test. That tofugu article seems to echo that sentiment.

DrJones Wrote:Is not just a psychological barrier. There are thousands of kanji and hundreds of them share the same reading, or do most of times, as there are kanji with 3 or 4 readings. In fact, it's so confusing that japanese natives are forced to write the kanji on the palm of their hand just to get understood by other natives in usual conversation. Also, it's not unusual to forget or mix kanji, even the most basic ones.

This right here is what I have a problem with. This sounds like the kind of fear-mongering people use to dissuade others from learning kanji because its 'just too hard'. Not sure if that was the intent, but we don't need any of that. Kanji aren't that bad. You don't need to fear them, just like you don't need to fear Virginia Woolf.

I've gone about studying kanji a few different ways, most of them ineffective and terrible. When I first started, I basically just memorized the ones that appeared in the textbook we used in class, through writing them over and over. If I had to give numbers, I'd say this system was actually OK through about the first 500 or so, at which point I seemed to hit a brick wall where I'd forget about as many as I retained. After getting a better grasp on the radicals and branching out into more native materials, I'd say I made it to about 1,000. After that, I discovered anki and began using it to study vocab for the JLPT N2 and N1...I'd say this took me to maybe 1,400. Admittedly, these numbers are rough estimates (although at the beginning levels, I would go through my joyo kanji dictionary and count how many I knew every once in a while). Also, after a while I had largely given up on writing practice, which probably hurt my writing ability, so this is largely in terms of reading recognition.

After N1, I was able to pass the Kanji Kentei 4 (1,322 characters) with a little study. After that, I got more systematic and with the help of Kanji Kentei study books and anki, was able to pass Kanken 3 about 4 months later (1,607 characters), and am currently studying for Pre-2 (1,940). I'd say I'm around 1,800-1,900 or so in recognition, at least. Writing is more challenging, obviously. I'd say the Kanken method is probably the most effective method I've used, and also the most systematic, and has given me the best progress. I can't vouch for the efficacy of RTK as I've never tried it. I've been studying Japanese for a little over 7 years. I'd like to think my story is more of a cautionary tale of what happens when one does not go about kanji in any sort of systematic or organized fashion, rather than a testament to how long it really takes to master them. I'd still say the most difficult aspect of the language is amassing a large enough active vocabulary to handle a good enough amount of conversation to be considered fluent, and using that vocabulary in a precisely and accurately.

dtcamero Wrote:-The most widely read english language newspaper is #6, the Sun... arguably a tabloid rag.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_new...irculation

To be fair, you kinda skipped #3, the perfectly broadsheet Times of India.

vonPeterhof Wrote:

dtcamero Wrote:-The most widely read english language newspaper is #6, the Sun... arguably a tabloid rag.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_new...irculation

To be fair, you kinda skipped #3, the perfectly broadsheet Times of India.

Ok fair enough... even though I've never seen an american, or european of european descent, reading it.

Kanji are difficult. Anyone who claims otherwise is disconnected from reality. Saying that kanji are difficult does not mean they're impossible or that people should avoid studying Japanese, but after close to 15 years of studying Japanese I should not be running into any more difficulty from the writing system, but I do run into difficulties constantly.

Heisig doesn't solve the kanji problem -- the problem with kanji is not just telling them apart or remembering the shapes. It's learning the large numbers of readings and being able to recognize the vocabulary. Heisig may help, but it's not a complete solution.

Quote:it's so confusing that japanese natives are forced to write the kanji on the palm of their hand just to get understood by other natives in usual conversation

This is a myth.

Tzadeck Wrote:

uisukii Wrote:When people emphasis kanji/characters making Japanese difficult I tend to feel as though that I must be studying a different Japanese. Sure, the handful of different radicals to get used to are more time consuming than a relatively simple alphabet, but the kanji being the most difficult aspect of Japanese? Please.

Does the fact that an awful lot of people disagree with you dissuade you at all? Plus, you phrase this as if mastering kanji is mostly about memorizing a few radicals. Do you actually know Japanese? Because that sounds like the words of someone who has just started to get used to kanji and now has the naive impression that the road ahead is easy.

But, you seem to imply that you are quite good at Japanese, so is it just childish bragging? "This thing that's difficult for most people? Hah, easy as pie."

(Edit: This post probably sounds a bit bitchy... but I really think you sound disingenuous here. The difference between the kanji and a relatively simple alphabet goes well beyond being slightly more time consuming.)

It probably did sound like bragging, which is clearly my mistake. No, no bragging. I think that the comments may have been taken with a nuanced meaning I did not entirely intend.

In respect to having issues with reading and writing kanji, I'm going to say that it isn't the kanji themselves people mainly have trouble with, but choosing the correct one. This, I reference as a vocabulary issue, and not a with the kanji in such a sense, because it isn't as though the individual isn't able to write or read the kanji.

That is to say, "mastery" of readings and accurate nuanced usage of vocabulary encompasses the ability to read and write kanji, and the act of reading and writing actual kanji characters is a smaller part of a greater system a lot of people seem to act as though is "simple".

I'm not coming from the atitude of such like "I did RTK and now I know everything about kanji", just to clear that up. It is a great primer for getting introduced to kanji, but despite popular opinion, I really think it is one of the smaller aspects of Japanese, as opposed to the greatest.


@yudantaiteki: readings, etc. isn't something I was taking into account, purely because that aspect of the language is fundamentally a spoken event (as in, kanji themselves are given readihave ngs from the spoken language, not the other way around) and being able to write a single kanji with, say, five common readings... well, once you can write and recognise said kanji without thinking about it anymore; you're no longer having issues with the actual kanji but with the verbal aspects of the language and vocabulary. Something which relates more to grammar/patterns/nuances of usage which exposes the difference between a study of the language and how it is commonly applied.

While they are related, I am under the modus operandi that conflating the two is confusing the map for the terratory. Even writers who have been writing for decades run into issues with their language of expression. I don't think language is something that you can never simply not run into problems with, no matter how long you've used it. It is, afterall, a constantly evolving thing which has been used for generations upon generations of peoples, each with their own variations of proper usage, etc.


Well, I guess I hope that clears up the overwhelming sense of ambiguity left in my previous post. Many will still probably disagree with my standpoint, but that is fair. This is merely my own opinion. Something which can and over time, does change.

Haych Wrote:

uisukii Wrote:Completely avoiding the overbearing fact that grammar also covers coming across as a naive; using similar stuctures and patterns, a lot of which takes years to get used to the thousands upon thousands of words you have to internalise.

It sounds almost like you're looking to start an argument about semantics. Sure, that's what grammar is if you define it like that. What you're talking about, I'd be more inclined to call word choice, or diction. I think in the minds of most people, grammar means tenses, conjugations, and particles. Basically, the amount of rules you need to learn before you can move on to learning other things.

"When time are you came?"
and
"Which time did you come?"
These two sentences, most people would be able to read both and instantly see the top one as been all over the place. Tense, etc. these are word choice. The difference is that using the "wrong" tense or term is the difference between understanding the meaning and function of a word and not understanding said word.

It maybe semantics, but it often boils down to the difference between sounding like a stereotypical iliterate foreigner and a native user of the langauge. "Word choice and diction" seems an apt way to summise "grammar".