may as well my opinion into the ring
take it as a grain of salt
fluency in a language is a functioning state at which an individual is able to commumicate in the language, both in comprehending all primary aspects of the language (aural, written, etc.) and being able to be comprehended by others with the same modes of expression. using the language being communicated in and with as the primary language for processing and developing community cation.

which falls back the indivdual in being honest with themselves about it. when understanding and interacting with the english language world, i would not call myself being of a fluent state of mind if i had to subvert my comprehension by means of a different language to bridge any lack of understanding.

though this differs greatly from a more objective standpoint, and probably lacks the utility which would derive some relevancy.

i don't think that fluency is a static thing you reach, but more of a state of mind to perpetuate from. essentially the only people in the position to judge your ability to communicate in a given language are those already communicating primarily in it. which by then is a strange non-question to ask, as really it becomes a part of you which either shows weakness through usage or doesn't present itself as impedance.

all i can do is throw some dumb faith in popular government language assessments and assume that the passing grades are of a lowest common denominator and that if you are unable to pass them then perhaps that is a sign of areas in the given language which you are unable to communicate in.

should that impact on your judgement of your ability to communicate in the language? i don't know, but lying to yourself about it won't make you magically be able to engage with the language where you were unable to before.


grain of salt

drdunlap Wrote:

dizmox Wrote:

NightSky Wrote:For the most part I'm still way more impressed by a single person who can speak 3 or 4 languages to an extremely high level than a little bit of 20 different ones, particularly if including asian languages and not all European.

I'd be impressed to meet just one westerner who speaks near native level Japanese... I'm still waiting..

I don't know about Japanese but through an unplanned, intense training period my Osaka-ben is バッチリ so 大阪でお待ちしております♪　

Also the actress playing Quiet in the upcoming new installment of Metal Gear Solid sounds great. You can hear her in the HideRadio Podcast #314. (She comes in around the 30 minute mark).

A rare breed.. maybe even moreso than a Japanese person speaking near-native English!?


Either way this country desperately needs to change a bit in the language learning department. Speaking Japanese is all good and fun but I crave bilingual interaction. |:

That foreign actress is kind of inspiring! My mom keeps telling me to go be an actress in Japan haha. I don't know much about it over there, but from what I've seen on variety shows and whatnot (and what little I know) there aren't many famous foreign actors who can speak decent Japanese - or am I wrong?

As far as Benny's claim goes, Steve K chimed in on it yesterday

I looked at the post on Benny's website and it seems he's lowered the bar to simply B2 this time around. I wonder if this means he's learning from past experiences...

Benny has probably already studied Japanese before. Or not. Mmm. :O

AkiKazachan Wrote:That foreign actress is kind of inspiring! My mom keeps telling me to go be an actress in Japan haha. I don't know much about it over there, but from what I've seen on variety shows and whatnot (and what little I know) there aren't many famous foreign actors who can speak decent Japanese - or am I wrong?

As far as Benny's claim goes, Steve K chimed in on it yesterday

I looked at the post on Benny's website and it seems he's lowered the bar to simply B2 this time around. I wonder if this means he's learning from past experiences...

I think they can probably speak very good Japanese. But the Japanese trope requires that they demonstrate visible foreignness... There is a famous black actor who appears on tv panels and stuff all the time, whose Japanese is actually near flawless, but Japanese audiences don't want to be confronted by the fact that foreigners can actually be fluent at Japanese, and that their language isn't so exceptional after all, so he has to act like and idiot whose accent is terrible and can't understand much Japanese.

I made the argument yesterday that fluency is hard to define and where you draw the line in the sand between fluent and non-fluent is subjective.

So each individual can have a (1) restrictive view or (2) wide view of fluency.

I want to go to the next step and argue that where people draw that line is reflective of belief systems and/or personality types.

Restrictive views of fluency arise from cultural and national essentialist ideologies. I.e. unless Benny can talk about the phenomenology of intergenerational visuality in Genji monogatari with the average Tokyo salary man he ain’t fluent. (It’s like the “unless taxi drivers can chat about baseball in a flawless NY accent they should get out of our country” type of thing). Fluency is restrictive, the bar raised very high for entry to the language community.

Wide views of fluency are espoused perhaps by people who are more comfortable with vague boundaries (can I use the word “liminality” here? Please?)…OK, espoused by people who are more comfortable with liminality.

So that is why I think people draw that line in the sand where they do.

The problem I have with limited views of fluency is that one doesn't know the direction a conversation will turn, so even if one has a high degree of proficiency in discussing basic topics, it doesn't mean what starts out as a basic conversation will be necessarily limited those topics.

For example, I was once having a discussion with a coworker who was talking about a trip to Alaska. Fairly basic subject. Then she mentioned that she heard somewhere that Alaska is exposed to higher amounts of UV radiation. If I hadn't known the word 紫外線 (しがいせん) from somewhere, the conversation would have gotten stuck. I also remember a question about America's health care system and how health and car insurance differ between Japan and America that required a fairly large amount of circumlocution on my part to get my point across. Assessing myself, I wouldn't consider that to be "fluent", and I don't think excuses of "well, I don't really have interest in that subject, so I wouldn't want to talk about it anyway" or "it's not the most common subject" cut it, as topics like that can come up even in what starts as a "basic" conversation.

raharney Wrote:(can I use the word “liminality” here? Please?)

You can use it if you want, it depends how much respect you have for your audience and how much you care if they can understand you.

I personally have never seen that word before in my life and have no idea what it means. I'm also not going to look it up just to keep you happy.

The ironic thing is you may think you are an excellent communicator by having such command of the more rare vocabulary (even if it is more "precise" vocabulary), but if your target audience doesn't understand you then its wasted effort and demonstrating terrible communication and writing skills. It doesn't make you look smart, as much as you might want it to.

NightSky Wrote:

raharney Wrote:(can I use the word “liminality” here? Please?)

You can use it if you want, it depends how much respect you have for your audience and how much you care if they can understand you.

I personally have never seen that word before in my life and have no idea what it means. I'm also not going to look it up just to keep you happy.

The ironic thing is you may think you are an excellent communicator by having such command of the more rare vocabulary (even if it is more "precise" vocabulary), but if your target audience doesn't understand you then its wasted effort and demonstrating terrible communication and writing skills. It doesn't make you look smart, as much as you might want it to.

Why the vitriol?
If the word is new for you then enjoy it. Don't be so rigid with your horizons.
The word is not an insult. (I leave you to do the insulting.)

@NightSky I mostly agree with you, but that you have never heard that word before doesn't mean @raharney is not getting his message across, lol.

I think of fluency as seeming more native as opposed to communicating effectively, or somewhere in the middle. Just look around and you can probably find someone that is a native speaker of X language that every now and then communicates poorly or fails to communicate effectively at a given time in a given topic, but no one would say "he/she is not very fluent".

Also, I think a lot of people are threw off a bit when someone, albeit very fluent in X language communicates in a way that doesn't seem native (to their own native subjective standards) in terms of gestures, expressions, accent, and other traits usually regarded as non-intellectual (at least when compared to vocabulary, grammar correctness, in-depth knowledge of a particular topic, etc.)

NightSky Wrote:

raharney Wrote:(can I use the word “liminality” here? Please?)

You can use it if you want, it depends how much respect you have for your audience and how much you care if they can understand you.

I personally have never seen that word before in my life and have no idea what it means. I'm also not going to look it up just to keep you happy.

The ironic thing is you may think you are an excellent communicator by having such command of the more rare vocabulary (even if it is more "precise" vocabulary), but if your target audience doesn't understand you then its wasted effort and demonstrating terrible communication and writing skills. It doesn't make you look smart, as much as you might want it to.

I don't really see the irony here. I'm not a particularly well read or educated individual, however the post by raharney, which you are responding to seems perfectly apt, and nicely precise. While I may or may not agree with the sentiments involved, it seems more like you are projecting here.

It would be a shame if precision and accuracy of terminology were to be deemed "terrible" due to the general ignorance of the listener. In fact, it is a kind ironic in itself. It screams of, in my opinion, anti-intellectualism. This is not everyday discussion about the weather with strangers at a bus stop. We are discussing particular technical aspects of language, and so whether or not people find such "precise" vocabulary to their taste is irrelevant.

There is very little utility in using vague and imprecise language on a technical discussion instead of more accurate and contextually relevant diction.

It leaves a bad taste in your mouth: to see someone accused with form of arrogance when in reality they aren't the ones telling other people how they ought conduct their arguments. The statement: "It doesn't make you look smart, as much as you might want it to." is not only a pointless personal attack, but it smacks of the appeals to emotion used when reasonable forms of discussion have been exhausted. Which, based on your input into this discussion, is doing yourself a disservice.


Not agreeing or disagreeing with either party. Merely pointing out rhetoric that really doesn't have a place and often closes the flow of dialogue. Without dialogue it's merely a form of literary exhibitionism. Of which there is already the "Off Topic" board to facilitate such pleasures.

[Zgarbas]

I think it was already established that raharney considers simple language to be underneath him a few pages back. If someone doesn't want to be understood, then just ignore what they say. It's certainly better than starting a discussion based on an individual user's writing style, which not only does not help or interest anyone but can make the cricised user feel insulted (since, frankly, there are few people who can do constructive criticism without getting in the personal attack territory...as seen by Night Sky's third paragraph).

By the by, I hope you wouldn't mind if I asked you guys to take the debate on fluency to the debate thread and let this thread be filled with commentaries about benny's progress .

Edited: Thanks for noticing ^^

Zgarbas Wrote:By the by, I hope you wouldn't mind if I asked you guys to take the debate on fluency to the [url=http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=10819]debate thread[/i] and let this thread be filled with commentaries about benny's progress .

I sense that you are not fluent in BBCode. Try closing your [url] tag with [/url] next time.

uisukii Wrote:I don't really see the irony here. I'm not a particularly well read or educated individual, however the post by raharney, which you are responding to seems perfectly apt, and nicely precise. While I may or may not agree with the sentiments involved, it seems more like you are projecting here.

Had his reply been the only one he has made on this thread then it would have been perfectly apt and my criticism would have been totally unreasonable.

I gave that reply since already during this thread itself there have been comments about the posts he has made since frankly nobody could understand what he was talking about.

Given that pre-existing background is why he felt it even necessary to make the point himself:

raharney Wrote:(can I use the word “liminality” here? Please?)

ie, he *already* knew he had caused some trouble by posting in a ridiculous fashion, and raising it again in this way (as if to demonstrate we mere mortals are merely holding him back) I thought was frankly quite rude and somewhat insulting.

I guess all I'm saying is I don't want to be having to read posts where I'm being indirectly insulted, because I'm uninterested in reading rubbish like:

raharney Wrote:What Benny is aiming for, perhaps, is a pre-nationalist Romanticist situation where being able to speak a few languages and dialect, with no worries about professional accreditation or the condescension of the bourgeois intelligentsia caste, was simply the norm. Or perhaps he is aiming for a postmodern condition where language acquisition is wrenched out of the claws of the singularity and finitude obsessed crypto-apartheidist gatekeepers of linguistic nationalist discourses and returned to the people: i.e. us peasant, workers, and peregrinating flâneurs.

Anyway, I'm happy to leave it there and don't have much interest in continuing this side debate ..

Cheers

~

"Neverending stoooorryyyyyy!"

[RawToast]

raharney Wrote:I.e. unless Benny can talk about the phenomenology of intergenerational visuality in Genji monogatari with the average Tokyo salary man he ain’t fluent.

With that viewpoint I don't think there would be many fluent speakers of any language. Hardly anyone reads the likes Hegel and Foucault outside of university these days.

Let's put a stop to the talk about raharney's language here. If you wish to continue please do so in the debates thread:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=10819

Before we all head to the other forum can I just have one last chance to defend myself.

@uisukii
Thank you for your very fair-minded defence of my right to express myself. I know you are not endorsing my views, just simply upholding my right to state them. Very noble of you. Thanks.

@nightsky
You've been indirectly insulted by my posts???? FFS!
Having said that, I am flattered that you went to the trouble of finding, copying, and pasting one of my earlier posts. Even I wouldn't have bothered doing that.

@Zgarbas
You state "I think it was already established that raharney considers simple language to be underneath". That is not completely fair. I meant simply that I am unable to avoid idiolectic idiosyncrasies. It was a plea for tolerance. Not a statement of superiority.
But anyway, I promised you I would be nice. So here's a smiley

@RawToast
Glad you spotted the intended humor.

@tous les monde
A la prochaine.

raharney Wrote:Restrictive views of fluency arise from cultural and national essentialist ideologies. I.e. unless Benny can talk about the phenomenology of intergenerational visuality in Genji monogatari with the average Tokyo salary man he ain’t fluent.

Benny tends to use this tactic to dismiss his critics. But I'm simply talking about the ability to handle most normal language situations without having to rely on sympathetic speakers, rehearsal, dictionaries, gestures and drawings etc. Speaking speed should be fast enough that it's not tedious to listen to. Accent should be understandable. If someone starts describing the plot of a movie they saw last night or references some current affair (say an election or natural disaster) or something can you follow what they're talking about? You don't need to know every word, and replies need not be eloquent, but neither party should come away feeling that the conversation was difficult or that they "successfully communicated." That should go without saying among parties that claim to be fluent in the language.

AkiKazachan Wrote:That foreign actress is kind of inspiring! My mom keeps telling me to go be an actress in Japan haha. I don't know much about it over there, but from what I've seen on variety shows and whatnot (and what little I know) there aren't many famous foreign actors who can speak decent Japanese - or am I wrong?

There's a decent number of us out there.. we're just not the norm.
If you can get everything to a no-違和感 level (arbitrary, I know) then you will be readily accepted by just about everyone.. and, I imagine, be able to find your way into the acting/voice acting world if you're decent at the acting thing.

Unfortunately, Japan sets the no-違和感 bar very, very high. Probably due to freakishly abnormal levels of homogeneity?? I don't know. But having even the slightest accent has an effect on how Japanese people view you. (Having a non-Japanese appearance, also. Now considering wearing a mask 24/7... Although, my favorite language-proficiency comment has to be "This voice coming from this face just blew my mind.")


As for the rest of the world's view of "fluency" (or, whatever, ability to communicate)- I think Benny will do decently with his language-learning background. But Japan itself will be a tall hurdle. It's a motivation thing, anyway. 3 months is long enough to get decent. More decent than many language learners will become in their lives. Which is depressing.

@drdunlap Wow, you must have trained in the 精神と時の部屋 and improved amazingly since that last time I watched that video you posted on these forums a while back, you were pretty good, granted, but you wouldn't call that fluent would you?

[s0apgun]

I shared one of his beer review videos with a native and they said his Japanese sounds fluent.

What beer reviews? 観たいーね

I read the post for his Japanese Mission and it sounds a lot more realistic than what I've heard from his previous ones. Although he did make the mistake of equating B2+ with N2+, he said he wanted to at least reach lower intermediate, which still might be a struggle but shouldn't be too hard.

Something that irked me for a sec was how he said he could learn the language "almost entirely" without learning kanji/reading, but went on to admit that this was only up to a point, and that to maintain his languages he's had to make some adjustments and add in reading/grammar study later on.

I actually don't think this might go as badly as his Chinese mission did. He's seemed to have learned some lessons, and I'm interested to see how he'll progress (I did not imagine myself saying this two days ago haha).

In reading his blog though I really feel like he's trying to emphasize speaking from day one, not necessarily getting fluent in three months... I know he's been adamant about not changing the title of his blog (for some reason? I haven't read that post yet) but personally I would be much more interested in a method called Speak From Day 1 rather than Fluent in 3 Months (though that's cuz I know better... and the latter is arguably better for sales, isn't it? but I still prefer the former but as I said that's just me XP)

youasuki Wrote:@drdunlap Wow, you must have trained in the 精神と時の部屋 and improved amazingly since that last time I watched that video you posted on these forums a while back, you were pretty good, granted, but you wouldn't call that fluent would you?

Talking to a computer screen has the awkward ability to send me into 噛み祭りモード and I have yet to figure out why. Something about nervousness. Although I can't see what's wrong with it other than a little cheesy awkwardness. I'd call that video 違和感殆どなし.. ..! The beer reviews are a little more relaxed. Either way- yes, I would call someone who speaks like I do in that video fluent ..? Do you mean "native"?

I need to make some new videos sometime. And maybe invite someone over to talk to so that I'm not talking at a camera. :|

But yes, I did take a trip to the 精神と時の部屋- also known as the last 10 months. (I'm always surprised when I look back several months in time. I'll count that a good thing.) The biggest change being that I've mostly made the transition to Osaka-ben so I'm not awkwardly flipping back and forth anymore. Still want to improve, though! It was maybe two months after those videos that I finally broke into a circle of friends in Osaka. Friends are good.

**Edit (+further derail. sorry (T_T)):
Beer Reviews!↓ (9 months ago)
Suntory Premium Malts Black

Yoho Brewing - 好みなんて聞いてないぜSORRY

.