Has anyone watched his (maybe latest?) video "struggling" to read Japanese? I didn't watch the whole of it (it's like half an hour) but it just feels… phony?. Benny kind of makes language learning feel like a cheap trick. I think a lot of people dislike that.

Also, what is so remarkable about becoming "conversational" (mangler level) in Japanese in 3 months? With just a small subset of vocab and some grammar you can get your point across to native speakers, who will struggle to understand you, but eventually (more of less) get what you are going at.

youasuki Wrote:Has anyone watched his (maybe latest?) video "struggling" to read Japanese? I didn't watch the whole of it (it's like half an hour) but it just feels… phony?. Benny kind of makes language learning feel like a cheap trick. I think a lot of people dislike that.

I don't dislike it at all. I find 'Benny's Adventures' extremely instructive. Somewhat reminds me of Ziad Fazah.

Ziad Fazah - does he exist?
http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/for...=13&TPN=20
The best thread I've ever read.

Ziad Fazah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziad_Fazah

buonaparte Wrote:

youasuki Wrote:Has anyone watched his (maybe latest?) video "struggling" to read Japanese? I didn't watch the whole of it (it's like half an hour) but it just feels… phony?. Benny kind of makes language learning feel like a cheap trick. I think a lot of people dislike that.

I don't dislike it at all. I find 'Benny's Adventures' extremely instructive. Somewhat reminds me of Ziad Fazah.

Ziad Fazah - does he exist?
http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/for...=13&TPN=20
The best thread I've ever read.

Ziad Fazah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziad_Fazah

That thread was awesome, I've just spent all night reading the entire thing. Bit of a waste of time perhaps but I found it interesting.

Here is a video of him getting .... embarrassed, on a TV show where he gets quizzed on a few of his languages:

I think he did what most polyglots tend to do, learn a bit of a language (say, a few thousand words, which can be done in a couple of months), define yourself as "fluent" and then go onto the next one. So when people hear a claim of a guy being able to speak 58 languages fluently, they assume he can converse easily in all of them. For this guy he seemingly couldn't really do anything at all in many of them ...

I'm sort of disappointed that every time I hear of someone who has an amazing language ability, they tend not to really display anything I couldn't have done myself -- its just about putting in the time at the end of the day.

Although that kid who spoke 20 languages on Youtube sounded alright to my very untrained ear, which is quite impressive when still a teenager I guess.

Quote:Although that kid who spoke 20 languages on Youtube sounded alright to my very untrained ear, which is quite impressive when still a teenager I guess.

Considering his age I think he's impressive.

I can only speak for his Italian, which is decent. His accent isn't very good (oddly enough, he sounds like a Middle-Eastern) and he makes some grammatical errors.
In his defence, it probably isn't one of his strongest languages.

I'm not a native speaker but I'm fluent enough to state that his French is almost perfect.
I'm curious about his Mandarin, can someone give an informed opinion?

Yeah he learned French from being very young so that's less of a suprise.

I find his Mandarin accent really uncomfortable, his tones are pretty messed up and it does sound odd. He spoke reasonably quickly but then again didn't say anything complicated or high level.

I think the thing is anyone could very quickly memorize 20 grammatically correct sentences in 20 different languages and learn how to reproduce them all very well on Youtube, spending a month per language would get you there.

That said on his TV interview he seemed more than willing to demonstrate some speaking ability (although in the end I think he only recited some Persian) but his confidence did suprise me. He also came off as a very intelligent guy which helps.

Anyway I don't really know, I think his Mandarin is clearly not good enough to describe as "fluent", but I don't know about his other languages. I think given his age alone even being able to speak a bit of each is quite impressive.

For the most part I'm still way more impressed by a single person who can speak 3 or 4 languages to an extremely high level than a little bit of 20 different ones, particularly if including asian languages and not all European.

I think his German sounded pretty decent, but it has been a while since I've studied it...

EDIT: wow, I am really surprised at how much like German Yiddish sounds... I knew that historically it was used by European Jews, but I guess I've never really heard it spoken before...

NightSky Wrote:For the most part I'm still way more impressed by a single person who can speak 3 or 4 languages to an extremely high level than a little bit of 20 different ones, particularly if including asian languages and not all European.

I'd be impressed to meet just one westerner who speaks near native level Japanese... I'm still waiting..

dizmox Wrote:I'd be impressed to meet just one westerner who speaks near native level Japanese... I'm still waiting..

Really? I met one in a bar last night in Kyoto, haha. He's been living here for 18 years though, he said.

I have two friends, one here about 14 years and one about 10, and they both sound pretty native to me.

I know a French girl that's pretty crazy good considering she's 19 and has only lived in Japan since she started college about a year ago. There was also a 25-ish Finnish chef I met who barely lived in Japan but was crazy fluent.

I know there are a few around, but the fact that a Westerner can receive great praise, or even (Youtube) fame by rattling off (likely pre-prepared) awkward sounding Japanese at a camera is kind of funny when you consider how many foreigners there are who speak/write/read English at a native level just as a matter of course...

dizmox Wrote:

NightSky Wrote:For the most part I'm still way more impressed by a single person who can speak 3 or 4 languages to an extremely high level than a little bit of 20 different ones, particularly if including asian languages and not all European.

I'd be impressed to meet just one westerner who speaks near native level Japanese... I'm still waiting..

Yeah there aren't too many. There is one guy I knew well who had got a degree in Japanese in the UK (whilst having a Japanese girlfriend) and he speaks amazingly well. Infact in some ways I think I was unlucky to have even met him because somehow it used to really effect my own confidence, he was just *that* good.

I'm aiming for very high fluency for both Mandarin and Japanese, and I'll be done after that and don't want to learn another. I can see the attraction some people have to wanting to speak dozens of languages even if only a little, but it doesn't really work for me.

Don't forget also that there are people who still not at a very high level come off as way more fluent than high-level speakers because of their proper use of mannerisms, short expressions, good accent and self-confidence. For example, when I speak Japanese I try to some extent, to act and appear as a native speaker of that language, regardless of the fact that I am not.

Can't we all just agree to disagree on this whole thing. There are a million different methods to learn a language, people learn differently, and some methods work better for others, I just think this whole argument is counter productive. Who cares if you learn romaji, or use an SRS, or if you immerse yourself or not? Who really cares? You guys are arguing, and trolling over methods when you could be studying. So everybody let's just calm down, open up our books( or what ever you use, i'm not judging) and learn our respective languages.

I know one who's been in japan 10 plus years, and whom japanese people all say is indistinguishable from Japanese (perfect intonation etc). Every once and a while, I pass by people who sound really native (usually in tokyo). Then there's people like dave spector though he has a slight accent still. I think the common factor for near native level is 5 years or so of solid engagement with japanese society through employment/marriage after already achieving fluency. In most cases such people have probably spent a good 10 years in Japan. Maybe less if they were younger (teens or kids), had particularly total immersion (ie. probably not english teachers).

I've met quite a few who are for all intents and purposes completely fluent but would probably be given away by accent, grammar discrepancies though they could fool people on the phone. They can do pretty much everything they can their native language. In other words they actually are the level Benny claims (or aims) for. These people are on the road to becoming near native, if they maintain full-time engagement with japanese society.

^^What if people are posting during the time they would usually be wasting time online anyway? It's not like discussing, arguing, etc. things here demands you hand in your study time in order to enter.

How about not telling people what to do, while being passive aggressive about it? If you really didn't care, you wouldn't have posted. It's not hard to ignore a thread.

Who really cares? Well, enough people to make this thread stretch out onwards of 8 pages. Kind of ironic: tell people what not to do with their free time in the same breath as telling people not to argue about telling other people what not to do or to do.


EDIT: nadiatims posted a comment while I was composing the above. Hence the double
"^"

cae99v,
you’ve probably had not a very good day, so ego te absolvo. As uisukii already pointed out: ‘Practise what you preach.’ You sounded a little bit aggressive to my Internet ear, too.
In general you’re right, but if everybody took your wise piece of advice seriously, this forum would soon collapse. Anyway, I come here to practise my lousy English, among other things.

As to Benny, I wish him the best of Irish, or should I say Japanese. And as many followers as he would be able to accommodate in his Spanish (temporary???) abode.

One thing I noticed that I thought was interesting... I've been reading the Chinese threads that were linked to earlier... Benny seemed to base a lot of his notions on whether he succeeded at becoming fluent based on what native speakers tell him. He said that Thai and Chinese native speakers said they had no trouble understanding him. I'm not sure if it's the same for those languages, but I've heard Japanese people will lie to your face about how your Japanese is "very good!" Even if it is COMPLETE shit. It's a cultural thing and I don't know if he's aware of it, but I hope he's not planning on telling how good he is at Japanese based on what native Japanese tell him, because he definitely won't get an accurate assessment that way...

When I first went to japan, I went through immigration and said こんにちは. I forgot what he said, it was really fast, after he looked at my United States passport. He looked shocked, than said "aah, yoa japanese isu beri guudo"

AkiKazachan Wrote:One thing I noticed that I thought was interesting... I've been reading the Chinese threads that were linked to earlier... Benny seemed to base a lot of his notions on whether he succeeded at becoming fluent based on what native speakers tell him. He said that Thai and Chinese native speakers said they had no trouble understanding him. I'm not sure if it's the same for those languages, but I've heard Japanese people will lie to your face about how your Japanese is "very good!" Even if it is COMPLETE shit. It's a cultural thing and I don't know if he's aware of it, but I hope he's not planning on telling how good he is at Japanese based on what native Japanese tell him, because he definitely won't get an accurate assessment that way...

Yes, they do that... But I'm pretty sure he's not getting assessed by random native speakers in the street, he'll be getting assessed by language professionals...

[Zgarbas]

You'd be amazed at how ingrained it can be. Whenever I have a lesson (or have interacted with a Japanese teacher) they compliment my Japanese, even though my speaking skills are sub-par. It's pretty damn flattering.

Zgarbas Wrote:You'd be amazed at how ingrained it can be. Whenever I have a lesson (or have interacted with a Japanese teacher) they compliment my Japanese, even though my speaking skills are sub-par. It's pretty damn flattering.

I've been living here for 3 years... I'm well aware of how ingrained it is

The problem, of course, is that fluency is so hard to define.
It is obvious when someone is not fluent (makes too many incoherent phrases at too slow a pace) and it is obvious when someone is completely, near-native fluent. But in between these two poles it is really a subjective opinion where to draw the line.

Even the CEFR is riddled with these vague pseudo-scientific parameters.
For instance, B2 is “Can interact with a degree of fluency and spontaneity that makes regular interaction with native speakers quite possible without strain for either party.” while C1 is “Can use language flexibly and effectively for social, academic and professional purposes.” (Source: Wikipedia)
Who can really judge the difference between the two levels? (“What you are saying isn’t academic enough so you are B2…???) Anyone who has worked in language testing knows all too well how arbitrary it all is even with the best will in the world.

Anyway, having native-speakers praise you is a good sign things are going fine, it is take-it or leave-it evidential data as good as any.
In Japan, if they really think your level is subpar they will either not talk to you or talk to you in English (even if their English is A(minus)1 level). You will always know what they really think.

AkiKazachan Wrote:One thing I noticed that I thought was interesting... I've been reading the Chinese threads that were linked to earlier... Benny seemed to base a lot of his notions on whether he succeeded at becoming fluent based on what native speakers tell him. He said that Thai and Chinese native speakers said they had no trouble understanding him. I'm not sure if it's the same for those languages, but I've heard Japanese people will lie to your face about how your Japanese is "very good!" Even if it is COMPLETE shit. It's a cultural thing and I don't know if he's aware of it, but I hope he's not planning on telling how good he is at Japanese based on what native Japanese tell him, because he definitely won't get an accurate assessment that way...

I'm starting to think it's more of a compliment when they don't say anything, or help you fix your mistakes.
Although recently instead of getting '上手！’ I'm now hearing, when being introduced to other Japanese people, 'She speaks Japanese!' usually followed with questions about how long I've studied and how.

dizmox Wrote:

NightSky Wrote:For the most part I'm still way more impressed by a single person who can speak 3 or 4 languages to an extremely high level than a little bit of 20 different ones, particularly if including asian languages and not all European.

I'd be impressed to meet just one westerner who speaks near native level Japanese... I'm still waiting..

I don't know about Japanese but through an unplanned, intense training period my Osaka-ben is バッチリ so 大阪でお待ちしております♪　

Also the actress playing Quiet in the upcoming new installment of Metal Gear Solid sounds great. You can hear her in the HideRadio Podcast #314. (She comes in around the 30 minute mark).

A rare breed.. maybe even moreso than a Japanese person speaking near-native English!?


Either way this country desperately needs to change a bit in the language learning department. Speaking Japanese is all good and fun but I crave bilingual interaction. |:

[RawToast]

raharney Wrote:The problem, of course, is that fluency is so hard to define.
It is obvious when someone is not fluent (makes too many incoherent phrases at too slow a pace) and it is obvious when someone is completely, near-native fluent. But in between these two poles it is really a subjective opinion where to draw the line.

It definitely is the issue. I remember thinking of fluency as being able to function just as good in another language as your native language. I like about.com's definition of fluency, which is a step below native level:

Quote:A fluent speaker can participate in extended conversations, understand the language when spoken normally (on TV, radio, film, etc.), figure out meaning of words within context, debate, and use/understand complicated grammatical structures with little or no difficulty. Has good accent and understands dialects with slight-to-moderate difficulty.

I'd just add reading to that and it would be perfect (for me.)

raharney Wrote:Even the CEFR is riddled with these vague pseudo-scientific parameters.
For instance, B2 is “Can interact with a degree of fluency and spontaneity that makes regular interaction with native speakers quite possible without strain for either party.” while C1 is “Can use language flexibly and effectively for social, academic and professional purposes.” (Source: Wikipedia)
Who can really judge the difference between the two levels? (“What you are saying isn’t academic enough so you are B2…???) Anyone who has worked in language testing knows all too well how arbitrary it all is even with the best will in the world.

Agreed. This is why something like TOEIC (i think it's TOEIC) is better. It just gives you a score and employers etc can make of it what they will based on their own experience and needs.

But I think a statement like "I'm fluent in Japanese" is generally taken to mean "can speak Japanese". You really should only say it if someone would have to go out of their way to disprove it by using deliberately obscure language or topics. If the opposite is true, and you have to go out of your way to find situations that are manageable to demonstrate your fluency, then you're not fluent. If you fumble about blatantly not understanding normal conversation, replying at a snails pace, choosing odd words and are difficult to understand, then you're not fluent and claiming so will rightly illicit the response "what gives? i thought u said u speak japanese."

I believe this is the meaning of fluency as used by the general public in any situation except in language learning debates in which people are over enthusiastic about their current level, encouraging other learners or backlashing against "haters."

Fluency is a grey area, but like I said before, it should indicate an ability to handle the majority (ie. over 50%) of normal language situations without falling on your face.