Benny, that was the most coherent thing I've ever read from you. Presenting your method, rather than hyperbole, really goes a long way. Keep it up.

Just remember this about Japan: Everyone has studied English. For years. They know thousands of words, and would be thrilled as punch if you'd help them use what they studied. If communication and getting inside the local culture is your goal, then helping the Japanese people you meet to utilize the thousands of English words they already know will be more effective than trying to start from zero and work your way up to their level.

What I'm really saying is, you can have a meaningful conversation in Japan right now, today. You don't need to spend 3 months. It won't even matter. I came over here speaking zero Japanese and on my first day I had dozens of meaningful conversations. I was Fluent in 1 Day. That's a copyright, by the way.

Honestly, trying to speak Japanese puts up barriers, because the society is all about barriers. Being a foreigner sidesteps that. People will invite you places, take you out, show you around. They want you to be a foreigner. Speak English and you'll get inside the culture. Speak Japanese, especially if you do it well, and they'll be forced to deal with you as a Japanese person. Don't ask me how I know.

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:Honestly, trying to speak Japanese puts up barriers, because the society is all about barriers. Being a foreigner sidesteps that. People will invite you places, take you out, show you around. They want you to be a foreigner. Speak English and you'll get inside the culture. Speak Japanese, especially if you do it well, and they'll be forced to deal with you as a Japanese person. Don't ask me how I know.

Meh.

Doesn't really fit my own experience. People see the things they want to see sometimes. So without wanting to derail the thread even further, I completely disagree.

NightSky Wrote:

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:Honestly, trying to speak Japanese puts up barriers, because the society is all about barriers. Being a foreigner sidesteps that. People will invite you places, take you out, show you around. They want you to be a foreigner. Speak English and you'll get inside the culture. Speak Japanese, especially if you do it well, and they'll be forced to deal with you as a Japanese person. Don't ask me how I know.

Meh.

Doesn't really fit my own experience. People see the things they want to see sometimes. So without wanting to derail the thread even further, I completely disagree.

Agree with you. Perhaps it's just very different when you have a Japanese girlfriend because that pretty much instantly gives you a ton of Japanese friends that can't speak much English even if they wanted to.

[RawToast]

Benny Wrote:Out of curiosity, does this forum have any moderators, or would the thread go on indefinitely with "snake oil salesman" cries?

I am going to have another read through of this thread when I get back from work.

Edit: There is some nonsense back there. As long as it doesn't continue I'll leave it be.

Whilst this community is generally friendly discussions on recognition vs production do get very heated very quickly. It's a bit like you and Steve Kaufmann used to be in that regard

I would say the majority of users on this forum do advocate reading as a major learning tool. Hence when someone states that they are not interested in reading, typically they are pushed towards reading, listening, and recognition learning in general.

Benny, would you consider doing a video with a short chat with Steve Kaufmann in Japanese? That would be a very interesting video as Steve's Japanese is one of his strongest languages and his reflections on your progress would be interesting to hear.

i don't get what's with this phenomenon at this forum where people feel the need to immediately quell any argument as if the sanctity of the place has been tarnished by a little disagreement. Disagreement in life is okay.

I think the crux of this issue is that benny is very dismissive and/or hostile to anyone who even dares to suggest he may be setting the bar just a wee bit low.

Ask yourself this, if you met an immigrant and they spoke english on par with benny's umming and ahhing 3 month mandarin video (among others) would you think to yourself omg! fluent English!1!!?
More likely, you'd think it's an admirable effort but would not naturally use the word "fluent" to describe the speaker in question. I say naturally, because if you start over thinking the word "fluent" then you may start redefining it. Think of some japanese friends you may know who also can speak a little english (and have probably studied at least 4 years in school). Would you describe that level as fluent? would anyone? Many educated japanese people would be capable of using english at a level on par with benny's chinese if they were really required to, and yet no one (least of all themselves) would consider that fluency.

The word fluency has meaning, it suggests a certain level of competency. It doesn't just point to any speaking ability above zero.

Quote:Ask yourself this, if you met an immigrant and they spoke english on par with benny's umming and ahhing 3 month mandarin video (among others) would you think to yourself omg! fluent English!1!!?

I think the same goes to some extent for the aforementioned Steve Kaufmann after looking him up on youtube.

People just like to shift the goalposts I guess.

nadiatims Wrote:I think the crux of this issue is that benny is very dismissive and/or hostile to anyone who even dares to suggest he may be setting the bar just a wee bit low.

I don't want to feel like I'm coming off as being in love with this Benny guy and don't really want to be constantly defending him (not that he needs it) -- but exactly where has been anything close to "hostile" on this forum? I think this forum has actually been suprisingly hostile towards him, I don't think he has said anything that is even slightly hostile in nature.

Maybe you can go back and quote me the part where he was really hostile towards us all?

Quote:Ask yourself this, if you met an immigrant and they spoke english on par with benny's umming and ahhing 3 month mandarin video (among others) would you think to yourself omg! fluent English!1!!?

.....

The word fluency has meaning, it suggests a certain level of competency. It doesn't just point to any speaking ability above zero.

I don't really disagree with you, I'm just suprised so many people seem to get so angered by his different definition. I'm not really sure its very important. Especially towards his Japanese which he hasn't even started yet.

I took a look at a couple of his Mandarin videos, and for sure I speak better Mandarin than he does (but I've been studying longer and have a chinese girlfriend so that's not outrageous) but I wouldn't describe myself as "fluent" to someone either, because I can't watch TV or anything in Chinese and have any idea what is going on.

That said I spoke Chinese in a restaurant when I was in Spain a month or two ago, and because I could speak without pausing and at real speed, for sure everyone within ear shot would have described my Chinese as being "fluent". Fluent by the definition of speaking smoothly without having to be talked down to much for what was a very simple conversation (where are you from? why do you speak chinese? etc).

That is pretty much the definition he goes with I guess. Its not "wrong" its different. But I don't think he has ever claimed to have any abilities he hasn't been able to actually demonstrate, its just that everyone gets very upset over one stupid word. As if its even important!

For sure after 3 months Benny is going to reach a level of Japanese where an untrained ear would call him fluent and probably noone on this forum will call him fluent. Everyone will get very upset and this thread will go to 100 pages arguing about what the English word "fluent" means.

I was gonna write a proper well thought out post about this, but I'll just write a tiny badly thought out one instead.

I think some conflict here might just be due to the fact that really was Benny is doing has very little to do with this forum. This forum almost entirely consists of people who are interested in a long term commitment to really master Japanese, and that's not what Benny's going for. Benny also doesn't know the culture of this forum or perhaps the (Western) Japanese language learning community in general so well.

The appeal of his approach varies a lot by the individual. I wouldn't enjoy what Benny does, because I hate small talk and conversations about everyday things, and being able to find the fun in those types of conversations is necessary for his approach. In other words, I need a higher level of language ability than he's shooting for to really have fun with the language.

One aspect of what he does that makes me not so happy comes from the fact that a lot of people treat foreign languages like party tricks, and I wonder if his three-month approach doesn't somehow support that way of thinking. But, it's not his fault that people look at foreign languages that way, so he's hardly the one to blame.

NightSky Wrote:but exactly where has been anything close to "hostile" on this forum? I think this forum has actually been suprisingly hostile towards him, I don't think he has said anything that is even slightly hostile in nature.

Well maybe hostile is the wrong word. I'm talking about his tendency to dismiss others as trolls or haters, suffering from crab mentality or being pompous literature loving elitists etc. Also he is well known for not publishing any critical comments on any of the channels he controls. All in all, he seems quite active in minimising the effects of any criticism which is why he invariably makes an appearance in any forum thread made about him. Much of his internet commenting stinks of trying to win allies through his nice guy persona mentioned by a previous poster.

If I read "fluent" japanese, spanish, or whatever else on a resume, I'd expect the candidate to be able to at least handle basic business tasks, speak with business partners/customers in the language (not necessarily eloquently). I'd be pretty pissed off if I later found out that the guy I hired partly or wholly based on that presumed ability to deal with said situations could only fumble through basic conversations.

I don't disagree with you as for your expectations of fluency.

That said I think so far he has been treated exceptionally harshly, for basically no reason. At least, clearly not for anything he has written on this forum - its clear some people already have a bit of an agenda against him. As you have already shown with your "he is well known for ... " etc.

I guess I'm just a bit disappointed everyone on this forum seems so determined to try and shoot him down, I think it reflects pretty badly on the userbase here to be honest. Aren't we supposed to be offering encouragement and maybe even some helpful tips from our experience?

Hes only just started ffs.

NightSky Wrote:Aren't we supposed to be offering encouragement and maybe even some helpful tips from our experience?

He doesn't need our help or encouragement. He's the language guru. In 3 months he'll be fluent!

As someone who has a similar goal to Benny, I am looking forward to seeing how he goes about things and what his results are. I would be very happy right now if I were able to stumble through a basic conversation in Japanese. If that's his goal, more power to him. If your goal is something different, more power to you too.

Agreed that Benny's definition of "Fluency" is pushing the bound of the word's normal definition. But is there another word that more accurately describes what he is trying to achieve? In any case, he clearly defines what he is aiming for in the video so I don't see much reason for arguing about weather or not it's fluency or not. Fluency means so many different things to different people, it's like arguing about what "a lot" means. It's a good way to waste time and pretend we are accomplishing things.

[Zgarbas]

Quote:But is there another word that more accurately describes what he is trying to achieve?

"Conversational"

Guys, Guys, Guys. Have you never heard of the saying "shoot for the moon because even if you miss you'll land among the stars"? For goodness sake! Benny gives himself big challenges to really push himself. Because knowing that even if he fails to attain fluency, he'll still have a much better command of the language than if he challenged himself just to be able to "have a conversation" in Japanese.

Is it really so hard to see someone throw themselves into the deep end to try and see how far they can get if they push themselves? If you think they're going to fail, that's fine, but why don't you wait 3 short months to see how it turned out before you shoot them down?

It's important to be able to discuss different learning styles and their merits, and I think that this thread could have got really interesting, but instead about half a dozen members just got really nasty, towards Benny and each other. And that was not cool.

Zgarbas: I think there's a difference between "conversational" and "conversational fluency" which is what I'd say Benny's aiming for.

ktcgx Wrote:Guys, Guys, Guys. Have you never heard of the saying "shoot for the moon because even if you miss you'll land among the stars"? For goodness sake! Benny gives himself big challenges to really push himself. Because knowing that even if he fails to attain fluency, he'll still have a much better command of the language than if he challenged himself just to be able to "have a conversation" in Japanese.

There's a post that deals with this particular point very well in the How-To-Learn-Any-Language forum thread that buonaparte linked to on the last page: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/for...PN=3&TPN=4 (message 27, third down on the linked page)

splog Wrote:People often say "You should aim for the stars, and even if you miss you'll land on the moon". I have two problems with it, though:

Firstly, there is a great difference between ambition (which is motivating) and delusion (which is no use at all). Stretching yourself to a challenging but achievable goal is ambition. Shouting out that you are going to achieve the impossible is boastful delusion.

Secondly, if you aim for the stars and miss, you actually risk flying off into space never to be seen again. Whereas if you have set your sights on the moon in the first place, you would have had a better chance of landing on it.

What actually matters, of course, is the results you actually achieve. Many people said that with hard work Benny could reach A2 or even B1 [note from Surreal: in chinese ability level], and they were proven right. Yet, at the time many others called them "haters" and said they would be made to look foolish when the C1 goal was achieved.

A mature response at the end of the three months would be: "C1 was an unrealistic goal, but with hard work A2/B1 proved to be possible. The "haters" then were "realists"".

In summary: Benny achieved A2/B1 in three months through hard work. That is admirable, but not unexpected.

(and for anyone who wants to do any ad hominem attacks aimed aimed at me, be my guest. I'm doing this to improve my own skills in reasoning and to help people from being fooled. I think anyone who can't recognize ad hominem arguments as being irrelevant will be beyond reach anyway, so...)

I'm not going to judge anyone in this thread, and I don't really care one way or the other on the debates brought up, and yeah, I read through all that mess thinking that the thread was full of info I could use at this point in my studies.

All I want to know is, if it's possible to develop a functional BASE in Japanese in 3 months, as in learning to think in it, listen and speak at a basic level......supplementing that with the vocab SRSing and reading I'm doing, I'm all ears. I've spent years on and off the language and gotten further in these 6 months than I ever have before. If he fails at his goal but still has a decent base, I think we can all learn from that. If not, then oh hell, nothing of value was lost and you can all have a laugh at his expense.

So basically Benny, don't mind if I use your efforts for my own gains.
<.<

Surreal Wrote:I'm doing this to improve my own skills in reasoning and to help people from being fooled. I think anyone who can't recognize ad hominem arguments as being irrelevant will be beyond reach anyway, so...)

Ok. Let's hear your reasoning.

Benny makes explicit a learning goal. Tells us fairly explicitly how he is going to achieve it. Let's himself be tested according to fairly objective-ish standards. And this on top of publicly releasing videos of himself talking the language for us all to make our own minds up about the whole thing.

So how are "people...being fooled"?

Dang, looks like raharney is out to double his post count in this thread alone.
Its too bad the gif thread derail didn't really take off... Everyone could have got back to actual study.

Haych Wrote:Dang, looks like raharney is out to double his post count in this thread alone.
Its too bad the gif thread derail didn't really take off... Everyone could have got back to actual study.

How come you are allowed to post things and I'm not.
Who's cool in the school playground kind of stuff.

You guys never wish your speaking ability was better? I'm at the point where i feel I wasted my time because i still stutter to speak everyday but I'm forcing myself through it now.

NoSleepTilFluent Wrote:You guys never wish your speaking ability was better? I'm at the point where i feel I wasted my time because i still stutter to speak everyday but I'm forcing myself through it now.

You're not wasting your time. Apparently language learning is "organic" not "linear" so your progress can seem to take a reversal only for you to re-emerge very suddenly better. The brain is a complex piece of machinery and everything you do is going in and strengthening those neural connections so keep at it. (And it is ok to "sleep" before "fluent" - this helps the brain quite alot they say.)

Now, I better stop before the self-appointed thought police come after me.

PkmnTrainerAbram Wrote:I'm not going to judge anyone in this thread, and I don't really care one way or the other on the debates brought up, and yeah, I read through all that mess thinking that the thread was full of info I could use at this point in my studies.

All I want to know is, if it's possible to develop a functional BASE in Japanese in 3 months, as in learning to think in it, listen and speak at a basic level......supplementing that with the vocab SRSing and reading I'm doing, I'm all ears. I've spent years on and off the language and gotten further in these 6 months than I ever have before. If he fails at his goal but still has a decent base, I think we can all learn from that. If not, then oh hell, nothing of value was lost and you can all have a laugh at his expense.

So basically Benny, don't mind if I use your efforts for my own gains.
<.<

All I can suggest is right now, from now on, forcing yourself to think in Japanese. Talk out loud to yourself. Mindless, meaningless stuff. Narrate your life to yourself. Any words you don't know, you can look up, and then use straight away.

For example: kyou ha, ne, atsui deshou... ja, hon wo koko ni oitara, ato de benkyou suru naa...
Just stuff like that. It doesn't have to be anything amazing, and yes, you'll make lots of mistakes, but as you go along in studying, slowly you'll be correcting yourself, and before you know it, your language will have improved a lot.

Surreal: Valid criticisms of that quote. But I think that Benny is not delusional. I think he has a solid idea of how to study, and what to focus on. But hey, if it turns out he is, no sweat off your back, and you get to have a bit of a laugh at his expense. Win all round, really.

PkmnTrainerAbram Wrote:All I want to know is, if it's possible to develop a functional BASE in Japanese in 3 months, as in learning to think in it, listen and speak at a basic level.....
<.<

The answer to your question depends on how we define a functional base. Personally, I would define this as B1 on the CEFR scale. If that is the case, then the answer is absolutely a "no".

If you lower your bar to A2 and follow the very strict 50+ study hour per week routine that Benny describes, I think it would be more realistic.

A1 - Easy in 3 months
A2 - Possible with intensive study
B1 - Not going to happen (maybe possible if you speak Korean as a native language and have 50+ hours a week to study)
B2 and above - I would laugh at your face if you claimed this

[Zgarbas]

Let's be honest, the topic will just keep popping back up, so we might as well have a dedicated thread for it.
And while it's certainly heated, it's not exactly a full-on flamewar (it's funny because there are so many "oh my gosh the forum has gone downhill because this thread is heated" ideas, when in fact it is still much more tame than any random thread on a normal forum). Also, adding a "talking about Benny" taboo to the Ajatt taboo would be kinda silly.

So yeah, I'm going to let everyone sort out the conflict themselves, like the adults
they are

ktcgx: Still not fluency .
Haych: Don't instigate other users.
raharney: You could be a bit nicer.

Edit: Where's jankensan's post? =/

NightSky Wrote:Seriously, this community used to be a particularly interesting one as it "invented" quite a few approaches and developed quite a few study materials (anki decks etc) always trying to be as efficient as possible. I don't know what changed but its becoming a bit of a joke now.

Comparisons to AJATT are amusing, I don't know if all the posters here even remember but this forum used to be absolutely in love with him and it was a huge circlejerk. Then at some point people started getting irritated and there were some bigger bitching threads about it, it seems now we've mostly finished the 180 and everybody hates him. It absolutely wasn't always that way though.

Nostalgia is the enemy!