I know. It's still his site. Right after his failed Japanese project. I dunno, I laughed out loud when I saw it.

Yeah, it was written by someone else. Actually, it seems like half of the articles on the blog are written by someone other than Benny. And to make it worse, at the end of every article, it says "This article was written by Benny Lewis", which is not true for articles not written by Benny.

Anyway, the article: "Why Japanese is Easier than You Think" and "a few of the many ways Japanese is comparatively easy":

Quote:You can leave out subjects & objects if they are clear from the context.

Isn't than an argument AGAINST Japanese being easy? English-language speakers (and maybe Western languages in general) tend to use the words "I" and "you" a lot so from their point of view, the fact that Japanese discards those words is a challenge, not a "hack".

Quote:Kanji can be learned extremely quickly if you use an adult-friendly method.

I feel the article just glosses over the challenge of Kanji and overestimates the usefulness of Kanji. Kanji is the biggest hurdle for any non-Chinese Japanese language student. Period. Sure, a few prodigies will "master the meaning and writing of all standard use Kanji in a matter of months" but for the majority, it will be a hard and long slog. RTK is simply the very first step. A very useful and immense first step, but the first step nevertheless.

If you want to be hit with the hammer of realism, just ask members of the RTK forums:

"I finished RTK! Books are still unreadable!".
"I finished Core 6000! I can only understand 50% of any given sentence!".

Quote:Japanese is as Logical as Any Human Language

That's not entirely accurate. I would prefer to phrase it as Japanese is as illogical as Any Human Language (the myriad readings for any given Kanji comes to mind).

I guess I'm just nitpicking. This is a "life motivation" sort of blog after all.

Bokusenou Wrote:Well at least he admitted it. It would have been worse if he made some excuse and brushed it off.

But he did use excuses didn't he? He didn't say "Japanese was more difficult than I thought so I failed." It's more like "I could've become fluent in Japanese in 3 months, if it weren't for my getting sick and focusing on my new book" Whether his reasons are justified or not is debatable.

Maybe he could've become fluent in 3 months in Japanese.
Or maybe he tried his best and if he had the whole 3 months, he would've failed anyway, so he might as well disguise his progress with his sickness/working on his book.

Like the quote goes, "better to keep your mouth shut and make people think you're an idiot than to open your mouth and make people KNOW you're an idiot"

I'm not saying he's an idiot, I'm just saying that the situation (the 3 months was never reached so one cannot confirm for sure whether he could have become fluent or not) is convenient. Better the unknown than the known is what I'm trying to say.

^agree with all of that

Also I agree that leaving out subjects and objects makes the language harder, not easier. That just goes to show you how little penetration Benny made into normal conversational skills (the only important ones according to him). If you're not careful, your partner is going to have to stop you after every sentence to figure out who/what you are referring to in your ommisions.

It's harder because you have to be more careful in creating context for the ommision's meaning to be communicated correctly, vs just saying it as we do in English.

Aren't there studies showing it's easier to omit things? I think I can omit objects/subjects in Japanese more easily than how my Chinese students struggled to put a subject in their every French sentence.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:

Bokusenou Wrote:Well at least he admitted it. It would have been worse if he made some excuse and brushed it off.

But he did use excuses didn't he? He didn't say "Japanese was more difficult than I thought so I failed." It's more like "I could've become fluent in Japanese in 3 months, if it weren't for my getting sick and focusing on my new book" Whether his reasons are justified or not is debatable.

Maybe he could've become fluent in 3 months in Japanese.
Or maybe he tried his best and if he had the whole 3 months, he would've failed anyway, so he might as well disguise his progress with his sickness/working on his book.

Like the quote goes, "better to keep your mouth shut and make people think you're an idiot than to open your mouth and make people KNOW you're an idiot"

I'm not saying he's an idiot, I'm just saying that the situation (the 3 months was never reached so one cannot confirm for sure whether he could have become fluent or not) is convenient. Better the unknown than the known is what I'm trying to say.

Well he's coming out with a book in a few weeks. It wouldn't look good to out right fail right before the book is published so he had to come up with excuses. He was only 2 more weeks away from 3 months. Even if he had those 2 weeks, I doubt it would have made a lot of difference.

But it's not just about leaving out the subjects and objects like you can just drop them willy nilly. Whether or not they're there can make an important difference in the meaning of a sentence.

We had a discussion here a while back about an article with an example of this, something like the best translation for "Your shoes look nice" being 「靴かわいいですね」, because

「あなたの靴はかわいいです」 says that this person's shoes in particular are nice as a contrast to others' -- implying other people in the room don't really have nice shoes.

「あなたの靴がかわいいです」 says that the person's shoes are nice as a contrast to the rest of his clothing.

The way to avoid this was to exclude not just the particle but the subject as well, meaning the subject isn't just there to make the sentence longer.

Every time Benny starts a language, the learning community is up in arms. And the usual suspects over there at HTLAL, eager to quote skeptical stuff from whatever community forum, jump at every opportunity to say "see, told ya so!!!111".
Seriously, this is getting old. (and man, Wulfgar, I sure expected more from you than this low thread, you seemed to be a decent guy).

Benny seems to mean a different thing by "fluent", and what he does achieve is better than what others get done in 3 months, so what's the damn problem?

It doesn't matter whether he fails or succeeds anyways. Learning a language is not a race. If he actually succeeded, what would that mean for us here? Obviously nothing, because what we aim for is "a different kind of fluency" anyways, right?

This guy has been supporting "the language learning mission", and the statement "but he makes money with his book" is a dead horse already. So what? How many kittens get hurt in the process?

He tried Japanese, he didn't make it, end of story. But at least he tried. I know enough people who "think they will start at some point" and never make it. Better to fail than never having tried is what I'd say.

andikaze Wrote:Every time Benny starts a language, the learning community is up in arms...

He just comes off as a bit smarmy and a tiny bit dishonest--though not really to the point where you could call it a major thing. Above someone mentioned that he's always making excuses, and I think that's a big part of it.

I generally like bloggers and the like to bend over backwards to be as honest and frank as possible. He's doesn't, and it annoys me. I try to be as honest as possible, and if people want my respect they should do the same.

(http://neurotheory.columbia.edu/~ken/cargo_cult.html)

andikaze Wrote:Benny seems to mean a different thing by "fluent", and what he does achieve is better than what others get done in 3 months, so what's the damn problem?

No, Benny doesn't have a different definition of "fluent". He says in this very thread that his 3-month target for languages is CEFR B2 level. That's a pretty decent level and within most reasonable people's definition of fluency.

The problem with Benny is his outrageous claim that he could get to that level in 3 months...which is why everyone who has ever seriously studied Japanese (or any language) basically said.."told you so"...

Benny is doing this thing for years now, and not once did he reach a B2 in any language where he started from zero. So why point it out every single time?

Also it doesn't matter what he thinks his definition is, but what it really is. What he can do would be roughly JLPT N5/4, if I was to talk in terms we're being used to here.
For someone getting that far, 3 months really ain't a big deal.

His pronunciation sucks in every language because he's not the type to get into the phonetics of the languages and he doesn't seem to care. This, too, is a dead horse already, yet every time he starts something new, people point it out again.

The main reason I'm annoyed is, it's always the same old stuff being critisized, and there are people so full of themselves who literally wait for "the next Benny thing", just to repeat themselves ad nauseam. When we bring up the same stuff here, what we actually do is feed those trolls.

The guy spent 3 months, had a good time in Japan, actually DID study and was courageous enough to speak despite his abysmal level.
That's more than at least 90% of the people who indeed learn a language can say about their learning experience.

The fact he never reaches anything even resembling B1 is really not newsworthy anymore. If he motivates a bunch of people to get started, then it's worth it with all the exaggerations. In the end it doesn't matter anymore anyways.

People get back to their language learning (or to their reading on the internet ABOUT language learning and talking about it like pros), Benny moves on to the next thing, the trolls do their trolling and whoever got their feet wet motivated by him has a good chance to be interested enough in the learning experience to carry on.

People can accept Heisig's keywords as placeholders, but Benny as a placeholder for the literal kick in the ass to get started is ダメ？ Oh my.. people have too much free time these days ^^

andikaze Wrote:People get back to their language learning (or to their reading on the internet ABOUT language learning and talking about it like pros), Benny moves on to the next thing, the trolls do their trolling and whoever got their feet wet motivated by him has a good chance to be interested enough in the learning experience to carry on.

Why does it matter if this is getting old? People criticizing Benny and defending him are equally old hat, and you're part of the trolling cycle by writing this post. I, for one, had never heard of Benny before, and I'll never pay attention to him again after this Japanese experiment dies down.

I'm not allowed to talk about my newly formed opinion of Benny because you've been following him for years? News flash: Your experiences are not mine.

I've not been following him for years. When I started to learn Japanese, I also attempted to learn about language learning, because I had no clue where to start, how to proceed and how this mystical "learning a language" was supposed to go. And when you do something like that, you automatically stumble over Benny, because his anti-fan-crowd is following like flies. Well yeah, it stinks, so it's natural, but come on.

By the way, interesting link. Not really connected to the topic, but a nice read

[Zgarbas]

Man, there's something about Benny that just gets people riled up.

I think that, in itself, is a pretty damn impressive achievement.

No one ever gets that riled up when I go somewhere and start speaking caveman language =(

"but ... but you don't make tons and tons of money by deceiving people to use your e-books!"

andikaze Wrote:By the way, interesting link. Not really connected to the topic, but a nice read

Haha, yeah, I know it's only vaguely related, but the type of scientific integrity he talks about is the kind of honesty I like to see. Anyway, thanks for reading! He's got a bunch of good books too, if you're ever interested.

He seems to be a cool guy. I like his humor Gonna look him up and see what I can find, thanks!

[Zgarbas]

andikaze Wrote:"but ... but you don't make tons and tons of money by deceiving people to use your e-books!"

it always seemed to me like language learning amateurs want to have their money wasted on useless or inefficient resources. Like, seriously. It seems like people have an aversion to efficiency in favor of bold lettered books&resources which will bring them nowhere, so that they can say that they've tried and failed/suck.

People are lazy. It's nothing bad or to be ashamed of, it's just human nature I guess. That's why people fall for everything "learn X in (incredibly short time)". There's a crazy amount of hits on the "learn anything in 20 days" video on TED, for example. And Benny's book named "language hacks" makes it sound as if he found a secret shortcut. Well, serious learners with the goal to become as good at the language as possible seem to feel betrayed by that. They themselves spent countless hours, worked their ass off, felt horrible frustration because they just forgot that damn word for the 100th time, and then some guy comes along, promises a shortcut you KNOW doesn't exist, and you are tempted to argue, just for the sake of your own sanity. I know, I know.

Like I said, I can totally see where all this is coming from, but what I have a problem with are the totally professional uberprofessionals at HTLAL's den with their forum motto "if you can't spell it, don't post it", who sometimes get bored by their circle jerking and need to vent some, and Benny always delivers

These forums here are a great place, and seeing them coming over here to scavenge "fresh rotten meat" is just disgusting.

Everybody here knows it's impossible to become anything remotely fluent in 3 months. After 3 months, I struggled to say 失礼しなければならないんです without swallowing my tongue - and I refuse to believe I'm inferior to Benny Or anybody else, for that matter. But if I was, what would I gain by coming to that conclusion? I'll continue anyways, and I'll get there eventually. I already came all the way to where I am now (and every one on this planet can)!

Stephen King said it best when he wrote "Talent goes begging". Not only talent does. Only staying power doesn't IMHO, and that means keeping at it for 3 months *X.

andikaze Wrote:learn anything in 20 days" video on TED

Did you mean learn anything in 20 hours? I just watched that video and thought it was quite good. It sound's very gimmicky and is unlikely to contain anything an autodidact wouldn't already know, but I still quite liked it.

I know you weren't criticising it. I just felt like saying it was better than it sounds.

Yea that's it

I found it interesting, too. His "10.000 hours" thing reminded me of AJATT ^^ And I totally agree with what he tried to say: You can get to a level that might satisfy you within 20 hours.

People on this forum are obviously not satisfied with the level one can achieve in that time, so it doesn't concern us much - and the same applies to Benny. I'd shoot myself in the knee rather than speak and publish videos of me speaking with that level. So yea, if he does, he'll sound great to anyone not speaking Japanese, and I don't see why it's my mission to "tell the truth about Benny to the unknowing masses" on a forum where dedicated learners and those on their way are gathering.

We're the wrong target group for Benny, and we're the wrong target group for "the truth" about him.

It's partly his own fault for coming here to probably get some good replies. He should know better by now, because the same thing happened every time. But maybe.. there's no such thing as bad PR in his book. ^^

andikaze Wrote:Every time Benny starts a language, the learning community is up in arms. And the usual suspects over there at HTLAL, eager to quote skeptical stuff from whatever community forum, jump at every opportunity to say "see, told ya so!!!111".
Seriously, this is getting old. (and man, Wulfgar, I sure expected more from you than this low thread, you seemed to be a decent guy).

What's HTLAL?

andikaze Wrote:Seriously, this is getting old.

The gay rights, abortions etc debates are getting old. But it doesn't mean people should stop debating it.

andikaze Wrote:Benny seems to mean a different thing by "fluent"

Yeah, he means "not fluent". Just because I define canines as cats doesn't make it so.

andikaze Wrote:It doesn't matter whether he fails or succeeds anyways. Learning a language is not a race.

Benny Lewis would disagree with you. It's right there on his website: Fluent (a very tough goal using the reasonable definition of the word fluent) in 3 months (a very short time). That's his entire marketing schtick. I doubt he would sell as many books if his website was called Fluent (using the "indistinguishable from a native" definition) in at least 2 years (a more reasonable timeframe but even then that's pushing it).

In my opinion, it's no different to the "take this pill and lose 50 pounds!" products. Being fit while coming from an obese starting point requires lots of consistent effort and time. Learning a language is not much different. Unless of course you redefine the word "fit" to mean "can walk 50 meters without sweating" the same way Benny redefines "fluency."

andikaze Wrote:If he actually succeeded, what would that mean for us here? Obviously nothing, because what we aim for is "a different kind of fluency" anyways, right?

Yes, we aim for fluency using the proper/reasonable definition of the word. If Benny succeeds in his goals, then good on him and we will never speak ill of him again. Provied he doesn't call himself fluent. Fair compromise?

andikaze Wrote:This guy has been supporting "the language learning mission", and the statement "but he makes money with his book" is a dead horse already. So what? How many kittens get hurt in the process?

When money is involved, then so does increased scrutiny enter the equation. When financial "experts" promise seminar-attendees great wealth "just buy my book for trade secrets to make you free", skeptics scrutinize him in case he promises false hope and unrealistic expectations. Benny the language expert promises "buy my book and you can become fluent in a language in 3 months!". Skeptics will continue do their job, as they should.

andikaze Wrote:He tried Japanese, he didn't make it, end of story. But at least he tried. I know enough people who "think they will start at some point" and never make it. Better to fail than never having tried is what I'd say.

Nobody begrudges him that. Or they wouldn't if he wouldn't continually to liberally redefine the word fluent.

andikaze Wrote:Benny is doing this thing for years now, and not once did he reach a B2 in any language where he started from zero. So why point it out every single time?

Well perhaps he should really consider swapping the word "fluent" with something else. If he has failed to become fluent in any of the 50 languages he knows within the 3 month limit then maybe a more realistic goal would be "reasonably competent casual/everyday conversational ability in 3 months".

Then again, "Fluent in 3 Months" is a lot more succinct, flows off the tongue easier, and most important of all, more marketable.

andikaze Wrote:Also it doesn't matter what he thinks his definition is, but what it really is. What he can do would be roughly JLPT N5/4, if I was to talk in terms we're being used to here.
For someone getting that far, 3 months really ain't a big deal.

I disagree. His definition of fluency is very important because the type of people he is selling his books to operate under the standard definition of fluency and they're also the type who wouldn't have the foresight to double-check on whether the standard definition of fluency and Benny's definition of fluency coincides.

andikaze Wrote:The fact he never reaches anything even resembling B1 is really not newsworthy anymore. If he motivates a bunch of people to get started, then it's worth it with all the exaggerations. In the end it doesn't matter anymore anyways.

Those who appreciate honesty might have a problem with the exaggerations. In that case, he's less a language expert (being not fluent at most of them) and more a AJATT-style life coach. That's fine.

andikaze Wrote:People get back to their language learning (or to their reading on the internet ABOUT language learning and talking about it like pros), Benny moves on to the next thing, the trolls do their trolling and whoever got their feet wet motivated by him has a good chance to be interested enough in the learning experience to carry on.

Maybe you're the troll?

Zgarbas Wrote:Man, there's something about Benny that just gets people riled up.

I think that, in itself, is a pretty damn impressive achievement.

No one ever gets that riled up when I go somewhere and start speaking caveman language =(

andikaze Wrote:"but ... but you don't make tons and tons of money by deceiving people to use your e-books!"

The troll makes a good point.

andikaze Wrote:People are lazy. It's nothing bad or to be ashamed of, it's just human nature I guess. That's why people fall for everything "learn X in (incredibly short time)". There's a crazy amount of hits on the "learn anything in 20 days" video on TED, for example. And Benny's book named "language hacks" makes it sound as if he found a secret shortcut.

The troll makes yet another good point. Indeed, there is nothing necessarily wrong or shameful about being lazy (or any other vice).

But one could argue that it might be at best unethical/immoral to financially take advantage of people's laziness/ignorance/etc by promising unrealistic goals (EG. fluency in 3 months). See also: senior citizens and predatory financial firms/advisors.

andikaze Wrote:Everybody here knows it's impossible to become anything remotely fluent in 3 months.

Does Benny Lewis know that? Someone should ask him the next time he inevitably does a Reddit IAMA to promote his new book: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/y7...al_person/

andikaze Wrote:We're the wrong target group for Benny, and we're the wrong target group for "the truth" about him.

The more you talk, the more we (and you) should realize that even though you're a Benny Lewis defender, our opinions aren't really that different. We're the wrong target group for Benny because we're too skeptical, and we are not as naive and ignorant as his intended target group. Otherwise, we'd treat his words as gospel.

andikaze Wrote:It's partly his own fault for coming here to probably get some good replies. He should know better by now, because the same thing happened every time. But maybe.. there's no such thing as bad PR in his book. ^^

In this case, bad PR is definitely better than no PR.

Since his Japanese language goals are basically dead and so is the thread (as far as the topic is concerned), I'll keep it alive by going through his IAMA later and post any interesting Q and As (unless someone does it before me).

qwertyytrewq Wrote:

andikaze Wrote:Every time Benny starts a language, the learning community is up in arms. And the usual suspects over there at HTLAL, eager to quote skeptical stuff from whatever community forum, jump at every opportunity to say "see, told ya so!!!111".
Seriously, this is getting old. (and man, Wulfgar, I sure expected more from you than this low thread, you seemed to be a decent guy).

What's HTLAL?

http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/

There was once a Benny guy, but his surname was Hill not Lewis.

Isn't there a rule against mentioning Benny at HTLAL? Or am I wrong?