TheViking Wrote:To the guy arguing that spanish and japanese are equally hard. Quantum mechanics is just as easy as simple algebra, it just takes way longer to learn, right? I mean just because it takes 1000xtimes longer to learn doesnt make it harder. \sarcasm

Funny you should mention quantum mechanics. There's a lot of negativity on the Internet when it comes to the difficulty of QM and I believe that this perception is undeserved, unwarranted and exaggerated. I've been so inspired by Benny Lewis that I am planning on showing that is it possible to learn quantum mechanics in as little as 3 months. I'll be making a blog to show my progress so check this space!

I don't really understand the logic that just because you have to spend more time on something that it's harder. Japanese is not hard, you just need to spend the time to learn the kanji, same way you had to spent god knows how many years learning the latin script.

I'm fluent in Slovenian, German and sort of in English (+I can get by in ex-Yugo languages) and I fail to see why the Japanese language as a whole would be harder. Writing? Maybe. Grammar? Really simple.

Helltrixz Wrote:I don't really understand the logic that just because you have to spend more time on something that it's harder. Japanese is not hard, you just need to spend the time to learn the kanji, same way you had to spent god knows how many years learning the latin script.

This argument can apply to everything... But the fact is time consuming is a synonym for hard and that's why Japanese is hard. The act of internalizing the concepts is not hard but being dedicated enough for a long time is the hard part.

You're essentially on the verge of arguing semantics and I personally don't see much point.

Anyway roman languages are easier than german languages if you ask me. German & Swedish are full of vocab that makes little sense from an English perspective, it's hard to find many similarities. Which one of these sounds most like "experience" to you: A) Erlebnis B) Upplevelse C) Esperienza? You can just romance up an English word and you get close enough. But try that in Swedish or German and you'll be disappointed...

It took me a month of studying italian to get to the level of japanese ive been studying for cumulatively at least a year now. Let's not act like one is not easier than the other.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:This argument can apply to everything... But the fact is time consuming is a synonym for hard and that's why Japanese is hard. The act of internalizing the concepts is not hard but being dedicated enough for a long time is the hard part.

You're essentially on the verge of arguing semantics and I personally don't see much point.

Anyway roman languages are easier than german languages if you ask me. German & Swedish are full of vocab that makes little sense from an English perspective, it's hard to find many similarities. Which one of these sounds most like "experience" to you: A) Erlebnis B) Upplevelse C) Esperienza? You can just romance up an English word and you get close enough. But try that in Swedish or German and you'll be disappointed...

It took me a month of studying italian to get to the level of japanese ive been studying for cumulatively at least a year now. Let's not act like one is not easier than the other.

No it's not a synonym. It's also not a fact, it's your opinion. Something can be brutally hard to learn, but hardly time consuming and vice versa. For example in drumming, learning the left foot clave years ago was one of the most difficult mental acrobatics I ever did but it didn't take all that much time to learn, however, a decade later I'm still stuck practicing something as simple as a double stroke variations.

Anyway that "experience" example may not be good to use on me. It's Erlebnis, obviously. Upplevelse makes no sense to me and I don't know if I'd understand Esperienza if you hadn't told me. I spent very little time learning Italian, French and Spanish and it's for the most part gibberish to me.

Helltrixz Wrote:No it's not a synonym. It's also not a fact, it's your opinion. Something can be brutally hard to learn, but hardly time consuming and vice versa. For example in drumming, learning the left foot clave years ago was one of the most difficult mental acrobatics I ever did but it didn't take all that much time to learn, however, a decade later I'm still stuck practicing something as simple as a double stroke variations.

Anyway that "experience" example may not be good to use on me. It's Erlebnis, obviously. Upplevelse makes no sense to me and I don't know if I'd understand Esperienza if you hadn't told me. I spent very little time learning Italian, French and Spanish and it's for the most part gibberish to me.

My bad for being vague. Time consuming is used as a synonym for hard and that was my point. Anyway do you not agree that being dedicated is not a hard task for many individuals to accomplish?

I wasn't using the example on you heh. If you didn't know any of these languages it's clear which option would be the easiest to guess. The irony is that this language (italian) is supposed to belong to a completely different language family yet it is much easier to pick up.

Benny really seems to bring something out in people. I think it's the discussion of things being 'easy' that people have worked hard at, and might still be struggling with... makes people upset.

and then we also have the occasional Adam Lanza like the guy above, who will probably walk into their workplace with a shotgun one day.

sholum Wrote:*snip*

Don't read or respond to them. I believe a few members here practice that when something is becoming exasperating.

Helltrixz Wrote:*snip*

Have you mastered both left foot clave and double stroke variations to the same degree?

No insinuations, just an honest question.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:My bad for being vague. Time consuming is used as a synonym for hard and that was my point. Anyway do you not agree that being dedicated is not a hard task for many individuals to accomplish?

I wasn't using the example on you heh. If you didn't know any of these languages it's clear which option would be the easiest to guess. The irony is that this language (italian) is supposed to belong to a completely different language family yet it is much easier to pick up.

Well, you can blame the person for not being dedicated or blame the language for needing the dedicated time.

Cognates sure make you progress faster early on. But they don't help much later on when you start mixing them up when you push for the native level because they're all so similar, yet different. So of course, as a European you'll be better in a roman language than in Japanese after a year, but I'm really not aiming at such a low level...

Edit: Actually, for me time consuming isn't a synonym for hard, but more of an antonym. For example when you say "It's not hard, it's just time consuming". Maybe it's a cultural difference.

blackbrich Wrote:

Helltrixz Wrote:*snip*

Have you mastered both left foot clave and double stroke variations to the same degree?

I didn't really know how to answer this and had to think for a while, they're different beasts. I don't practise the clave anymore because I rarely ever had a use for it, but back then... I guess I had them on the same level.

It's weird. Even though one was hard and the other easy, they needed the same time commitment, but not the same effort to be on the same level.

crazy thread

why so much hate?

Hirakana Wrote:

sholum Wrote:*snip*

I hate people like you. You asked for someone to prove you were wrong, and now you're off crying about how we're bullies for doing WHAT YOU ASKED. Shut the f*ck up. No-one cares. If you can't handle dissenting opinions, get off the internet. No need to say you would torture and murder us.

has anyone told you that two wrongs do not make one right?

littlecrow Wrote:crazy thread

why so much hate?

Hirakana Wrote:

sholum Wrote:*snip*

I hate people like you. You asked for someone to prove you were wrong, and now you're off crying about how we're bullies for doing WHAT YOU ASKED. Shut the f*ck up. No-one cares. If you can't handle dissenting opinions, get off the internet. No need to say you would torture and murder us.

has anyone told you that two wrongs do not make one right?

Telling someone they're wrong is not a "wrong".

Helltrixz Wrote:

Betelgeuzah Wrote:My bad for being vague. Time consuming is used as a synonym for hard and that was my point. Anyway do you not agree that being dedicated is not a hard task for many individuals to accomplish?

I wasn't using the example on you heh. If you didn't know any of these languages it's clear which option would be the easiest to guess. The irony is that this language (italian) is supposed to belong to a completely different language family yet it is much easier to pick up.

Well, you can blame the person for not being dedicated or blame the language for needing the dedicated time.

Cognates sure make you progress faster early on. But they don't help much later on when you start mixing them up when you push for the native level because they're all so similar, yet different. So of course, as a European you'll be better in a roman language than in Japanese after a year, but I'm really not aiming at such a low level...

Edit: Actually, for me time consuming isn't a synonym for hard, but more of an antonym. For example when you say "It's not hard, it's just time consuming". Maybe it's a cultural difference.

Well there is a sharp difference between time consuming and what it takes to learn a language. It's the difference between requiring effort on one's part and not requiring any. One could say that the further away you move from your own language the more effort it takes to internalize the concepts.

That phrase is a bit insulting in a way too because it devalues the need of dedication in achieving something. It requires effort and takes time = it requires dedication. So you could change it to "It's not hard, you just need dedication." As if it is a completely trivial characteristic that everyone has plenty of.

Now, watching paint dry, or marathoning all of the terminator movies - that's just time consuming.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:Well there is a sharp difference between time consuming and what it takes to learn a language. It's the difference between requiring effort on one's part and not requiring any. One could say that the further away you move from your own language the more effort it takes to internalize the concepts.

That phrase is a bit insulting in a way too because it devalues the need of dedication in achieving something. It requires effort and takes time = it requires dedication. So you could change it to "It's not hard, you just need dedication." As if it is a completely trivial characteristic that everyone has plenty of.

Now, watching paint dry, or marathoning all of the terminator movies - that's just time consuming.

Everyone has learned a language, therefore I think everyone has enough dedication to learn another language. That's how I see it.

When I started learning English I didn't understand a single word, hell, I was 10 years old and didn't even know that it exists. But nowadays when I can speak and write three differently structured languages like Slovene, German and English I really don't see that much of a difference in Japanese apart from the script, which you can learn as you did with Latin. The concept of the Japanese language isn't much different otherwise. SOV? It's like that in German, it can be like that in Slovene if you want it to. Honorifics? Got those in Slovene and German, albeit simplified. Declension, conjugation? German or, if you want to have a hard time, Slovene. Pitch accent? Slovene, don't know about others. Word omission when the meaning is obvious? Slovene. Writing? I better get back to RTK.

My point being, if you actually take a look at the language at its core, you can easily find equally difficult counterparts in European languages. Once you learn a few languages you realise that Japanese isn't THAT different. I notice that I often think "oh wow, this in Japanese is so similar to how I'd say it in German" or "alright so Japanese has pitch accent like we do, I only wish they'd also write it in dictionary entries".

Quick question: Is Benny using Kana or Romaji in his studies?

(I'm sure it's been answered, but I'm lazy, sorry - and it's just a quick yes or no answer, so please don't hold this against me too much)

[RawToast]

This thread will reopen when Benny posts a new video.

Stansfield: I am not sure. He does know the Hanzi from his mandarin studies.

[RawToast]

qwertyytrewq Wrote:But really, I'd like to see Benny attempt RTK in 3 months (or less) and post his Anki results. At least then, we'd have a basis for comparison (among us lesser mortals)..

As far as I am aware he has already done it.

See this post:
http://www.fluentin3months.com/mandarin-mission/

Check out the Heisig book in his resources.

Benny Lewis Wrote:And yes, I will be incorporating reading abilities into this mission, as I’d otherwise be illiterate, and not able to function socially. My priority will be to be able to read menus and signs, but soon after, I do want to be able to get the gist of almost anything I see, with an effortless ability to recognise the most common 1,500 symbols (about half of what most people would consider the number needed to be proficient, so I won’t call my reading abilities fluent). For this mission I won’t go as far as to try to be able to read the likes of full newspaper articles beyond headlines, as that will take too much focus away from my main spoken objective.

I only assume he didn't bother with RTK/reading in his Japanese 'mission' as it wouldn't reflect the experience of a new learner.

I don't think he was ever tested on that and as far as I know he abandoned RTH. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:But really, I'd like to see Benny attempt RTK in 3 months (or less) and post his Anki results. At least then, we'd have a basis for comparison (among us lesser mortals).

Why? What has RTK got to do with anything? Absolutely nothing.

Hes trying to learn to speak Japanese in a short time. RTK is entirely irrelevant.

NightSky Wrote:

qwertyytrewq Wrote:But really, I'd like to see Benny attempt RTK in 3 months (or less) and post his Anki results. At least then, we'd have a basis for comparison (among us lesser mortals).

Why? What has RTK got to do with anything? Absolutely nothing.

Hes trying to learn to speak Japanese in a short time. RTK is entirely irrelevant.

Read this thread again and Benny's past posts in the other thread. Benny himself said he was going to do RTK "properly" after he "did" the 3 months of Japanese speaking.

An update in case anyone cares.

His blog says that he is in Japan right now and that he would rather continue enjoying his trip with his current "advanced beginner" (about 2.5 months study) Japanese than to complete the remaining 2 weeks of study to fulfil his goal of "fluency in 3 months".

I have two issues though. The first is how can you become fluent going from advanced beginner to fluent in 2 weeks unless your definition of fluency is so loose you make a mockery of the dictionary the word came from. I know he doesn't care about JLPT but N1 and N2 are pretty much worlds apart. And N2 and N3 for that matter.

Second, this quote: "I want to use all my time in
Japan to appreciate the country, rather than studying the
language."

Being in Japan is the epitome of "immersion", _1 (one)_ _METHOD_ of studying Japanese. Just ask khatzumoto, the guy who made that website, forgot the name. Walking around Japan and studying are pretty much mutually exclusive.

It reminds me of people on this forum who say they studied Japanese and passed JLPT N1 in 1 year. Oh yeah I forgot to mention that I lived in Japan for 2 years several years ago but that doesn't count because [insert rationalization here]

Yeah, I really don't like the way he phrased it:

"As such, I’ll have to travel Japan (starting a national week-long train ride from next weekend, absolutely needing to work for the next week now that I have a computer again, so that I can focus on enjoying the country fully in a week) with advanced beginner Japanese rather than having had the full three months to push myself on to fluency. I’m really sorry to everyone who was waiting for my level to go up, but for now it’s going to remain at about the level you saw me converse in over Skype in this video(Link)."

Yeah, those two weeks really woulda done the trick, buddy.

I've largely reserved judgement on Benny until now... but this just seems dishonest. If Japanese kicked your ass, just say it did. 3 months is supposed to be a goal, not a promise, so why avoid saying you failed?

Tzadeck Wrote:I've largely reserved judgement on Benny until now... but this just seems dishonest. If Japanese kicked your ass, just say it did. 3 months is supposed to be a goal, not a promise, so why avoid saying you failed?

Especially since he's never shied away from saying it before (though it's usually shrouded in something like 'I accomplished this, but not this', which is perfectly acceptable) and he's always been big about saying that three months isn't a promise.

I guess the reaction of various parties and the fact that his Japanese posts have had the least activity I've ever seen on that site that he's not going to bother with finishing (really? It's only two weeks). Of course, that's just my guess.

If two weeks were all it took to go from "advanced beginner" to "fluent", I'd be reading 正法眼蔵 by now.

gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:If two weeks were all it took to go from "advanced beginner" to "fluent", I'd be reading 正法眼蔵 by now.

And I could sound pretentious in two languages. Heck, I could probably go for five more, considering the time I've put in.
I just find it strange that he won't try to defend his 'credibility' by completing the three months of study.

Tzadeck Wrote:Yeah, I really don't like the way he phrased it:

"As such, I’ll have to travel Japan (starting a national week-long train ride from next weekend, absolutely needing to work for the next week now that I have a computer again, so that I can focus on enjoying the country fully in a week) with advanced beginner Japanese rather than having had the full three months to push myself on to fluency. I’m really sorry to everyone who was waiting for my level to go up, but for now it’s going to remain at about the level you saw me converse in over Skype in this video(Link)."

Yeah, those two weeks really woulda done the trick, buddy.

I've largely reserved judgement on Benny until now... but this just seems dishonest. If Japanese kicked your ass, just say it did. 3 months is supposed to be a goal, not a promise, so why avoid saying you failed?

I think I'm with you on this.

I'd like to see a bit more honesty, but I think the problem is his results actually go against so much of what he has preached before its not easy for him. Every language is supposed to be easy and you can get conversational (or "fluent", whatever) in 3 months for any of them. His Chinese one was bad, but at least he could get away with appearing to converse for those who didn't understand. But it seems his Japanese never even got that far.

Seems to me the honest thing to do would be to say "Japanese is the hardest challenge I've chosen yet, and its taken me longer than I thought it would". There is no shame in that.

Last I saw from his videos he was still nowhere, the idea of being anywhere close to JLPT 2 (for listening) obviously didn't happen. I doubt he'd pass 3 or 4 either for that matter.