JunePin Wrote:I think a better test would be to have a Japanese person (not one of his choosing) interview him then assess his level, a two-way conversation.

Ugh, a thousand times no.

I used to interview Japanese speakers for an English language school, and my conclusion is that doing level assessment is maddeningly complex.

There are so many variables. Person A says "I gone to Barcelona once before." Small grammar mistake. Person B says "I went shopping yesterday." The grammar's fine, but ショッピング is also a Japanese word, so who's higher? What about accent, volume, intonation, eye contact? Good intonation but bad grammar? Good grammar, wide vocabulary, but terrible accent? This isn't easy stuff.

If you do this with a standardized script, you can eventually say with some confidence, Okay, Person A is higher than than these few hundred people, but lower than these other hundred. But it's still subjective and error prone, even for experienced interviewers.

And Steve Kaufmann? That's just a cross-promotional event with two YouTube "language gurus." Good PR stunt, I guess.

So no. We don't need to home-brew up our own private, special, just-for-you-Benny exam and then sit around for the next six months having Good-Accent-versus-Good-Grammar arguments. There's already a test, and everybody in the world takes it. Take the test.

[RawToast]

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:And Steve Kaufmann? That's just a cross-promotional event with two YouTube "language gurus." Good PR stunt, I guess.

There's already a test, and everybody in the world takes it. Take the test.

I hope he does, or at least some of it. I guess he could sign up for July JLPT, but that's not "in 3 months". A 'live exam video' of the online test would also be a good PR stunt too

Oh, and you pressed the wrong button earlier

RawToast Wrote:Oh, and you pressed the wrong button earlier

Ah, I know. Darn fingers.

I think he already said no to the JLPT (in this very thread) when he found it's got no speaking portion and is multiple choice. Not to mention he's not studying reading which would make choosing the correct choice a tad difficult.

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:There's already a test, and everybody in the world takes it. Take the test.

You must have misunderstood the problem then because there is not a test. None of the Japanese proficiency tests having speaking components. Even if Benny wanted to just take the JLPT listening section someone would still have to read the questions and answers to him.

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:I used to interview Japanese speakers for an English language school, and my conclusion is that doing level assessment is maddeningly complex.

So your solution is to take the JLPT? I don't follow your logic.

On this thread in general: Why do so many learners of Japanese get so bitter and spiteful about other people learning Japanese?

Taurus Wrote:

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:I used to interview Japanese speakers for an English language school, and my conclusion is that doing level assessment is maddeningly complex.

So your solution is to take the JLPT? I don't follow your logic.

Here's my logic: speaking is one component of fluency. But listening (and responding appropriately) is the other. Speaking is comparatively easy, since you're in control.

I didn't suggest he take the JLPT. I suggested he take the listening portion of the JLPT (practice tests). That puts some actual metrics around what he's doing, as in what range of things can he understand, and to what depth.

Edit: I've also alternatively suggested he listen to NHK News Easy and simply say (in English, fine) what they're talking about. If you can't do that, I can't see how you can say you're "fluent."

Without measurements, saying "fluent" is meaningless. Like "thin" and "rich," it's good to have some numbers.

Edit 2: I'll also add that I'm happy that Benny is learning Japanese. I think that's great. But if you're going to say that you've found some way to "hack languages," well fine, just provide some measure of how well your method works.

Taurus Wrote:Why do so many learners of Japanese get so bitter and spiteful about other people learning Japanese?

We could go way off topic discussing this, but I only ever see that from people for whom "speaking Japanese" is their only identity. It's rare to see this in people who have other things going on in their lives.

I find the whole Benny thing inspiring and it's amazing to see how fast he's able to progress. I hope he does a follow up video after his visit to Japan because he should be able to really improve his fluidity while he's here.

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:Edit 2: I'll also add that I'm happy that Benny is learning Japanese. I think that's great. But if you're going to say that you've found some way to "hack languages," well fine, just provide some measure of how well your method works.

This, is basically, exactly how I feel about Benny. I actually agree with Benny on many things, speaking first, no substitute for talking to a real person, etc. I think he throws out some good techniques by shunning reading/listening and immersion, and never trying to develop and ear for the language but... yeah.

tokyostyle Wrote:

Taurus Wrote:Why do so many learners of Japanese get so bitter and spiteful about other people learning Japanese?

We could go way off topic discussing this, but I only ever see that from people for whom "speaking Japanese" is their only identity. It's rare to see this in people who have other things going on in their lives.

I think its a really interesting subject and you got the answer well here pointing out its about identity. If someone wants their identity to be defined by their ability to speak Japanese, its uncomfortable when other people start getting better than you at it too, or otherwise espousing how easy and simple it is to get good at Japanese. If your entire identity is defined by overcoming the difficult Japanese language, it would be easy to be really offended by that.

I think I used to be somewhat like that when I first started learning Japanese (not outwardly so much, but I naturally felt competitive to improve faster than everybody else did) but that kind of disappeared over time. Especially since now I know just how unimportant that is.

Is benny fluent by the standard english speakers hold immigrants to in any of his languages? This is a serious question. I can't judge his european languages (which he speaks better). I don't recall ever seeing a video of him just having a normal conversation in any language.

Well, I only watched one of his videos where he was switching between 10 or so languages and it sounded damn impressive... until he started to speak German with a heavy foreign accent. (I've been living in Austria for 10 years).

Helltrixz Wrote:Well, I only watched one of his videos where he was switching between 10 or so languages and it sounded damn impressive... until he started to speak German with a heavy foreign accent. (I've been living in Austria for 10 years).

Its a feat that is so less impressive than it sounds. To speak in 10 or so languages you could probably spend a month or two on each and be able to sound excellent to the untrained ear, even if you don't have much more ability with them.

Sure, its still a time investment, but learning a little bit of 10 languages isn't much different to learning one language very well.

I'm kinda disappointed to hear his German accent isn't great though, I thought that was one of his best languages. At least going from 0 to C1 in 3 months (which he apparently did for German) is impressive.

NightSky Wrote:At least going from 0 to C1 in 3 months (which he apparently did for German) is impressive.

He didn't go from 0 to C1 in 3 months (actually it was the C2 exam he sat not C1). I decided to look up the post on his blog, he says he studied German for 5 years prior to the 3 month mission and it's the language he's put the most work into.

Also according to this post he failed the listening section and thus the entire exam.

Quote:There were five different aspects to the exam. Based on four of these aspects I “passed” the exam and have a C2 level in German in these parts, doing better in certain sections than I originally thought I would!

However, I did not pass one aspect: Listening comprehension. Because you must pass all of the five sections, the overall result is not a pass and I will not be awarded the C2 diploma.

(emphasis added)

The accent in German part is pretty sad. I guess I know not to expect much improvement in that department when it comes to Japanese now... I guess that's one of the drawbacks of his three month language learning plans. Speaking is emphasized, while things like accent and reading are ignored because of lack of time.

Bokusenou Wrote:The accent in German part is pretty sad. I guess I know not to expect much improvement in that department when it comes to Japanese now... I guess that's one of the drawbacks of his three month language learning plans. Speaking is emphasized, while things like accent and reading are ignored because of lack of time.

I mean I could understand him, but it shows that there's only so much you can learn in such a short period of time. There aren't any shortcuts when aiming at the level of native speakers.

Helltrixz Wrote:Well, I only watched one of his videos where he was switching between 10 or so languages and it sounded damn impressive... until he started to speak German with a heavy foreign accent. (I've been living in Austria for 10 years).

Ya this is the problem... if you don't speak a language, hearing someone else speak it does sound impressive, no matter how incomprehensible they may be, or how bad their listening ability may be in that language. When you do speak that language, you realize that Benny is a buffoon-shuckster.

Taurus Wrote:On this thread in general: Why do so many learners of Japanese get so bitter and spiteful about other people learning Japanese?

Dude no one's bitter and spiteful about you learning japanese. But then you don't have a website selling junk to people that don't know any better, claiming you're 'fluent' in x many languages when you're merely a "flaneur" as he was charitably described earlier.

This jack of all-trades, master of none then comes here and tells people who are actually serious about learning to use a language that a literacy test is bunk because he can't use it in his magic act for website $$$.

Please. Benny's credibility is receding faster than his hairline.

dtcamero Wrote:

Taurus Wrote:On this thread in general: Why do so many learners of Japanese get so bitter and spiteful about other people learning Japanese?

Dude no one's bitter and spiteful about you learning japanese. But then you don't have a website selling junk to people that don't know any better, claiming you're 'fluent' in x many languages when you're merely a "flaneur" as he was charitably described earlier.

This jack of all-trades, master of none then comes here and tells people who are actually serious about learning to use a language that a literacy test is bunk because he can't use it in his magic act for website $$$.

Please. Benny's credibility is receding faster than his hairline.

I'm going to agree with dtcamero here, and in the end I find what he does to be very pointless in general. Learn a language so little you probably can't use it ever outside of your dumb website crap and then move on to the next one. Why?

TheVinster Wrote:I'm going to agree with dtcamero here, and in the end I find what he does to be very pointless in general. Learn a language so little you probably can't use it ever outside of your dumb website crap and then move on to the next one. Why?

Pointless? I don't buy into his methods but do you think his experiences with so many cultures and places, travelling adventures, and generally doing something he enjoys while managing to sell products for it, is pointless?

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:

TheVinster Wrote:I'm going to agree with dtcamero here, and in the end I find what he does to be very pointless in general. Learn a language so little you probably can't use it ever outside of your dumb website crap and then move on to the next one. Why?

Pointless? I don't buy into his methods but do you think his experiences with so many cultures and places, travelling adventures, and generally doing something he enjoys while managing to sell products for it, is pointless?

There are lots of ways to travel around the world that don't involve lying to people.

It's great to say, "Look how far you can get in a language by studying hard for 3 months!" That's awesome.

But to say "You can become fluent in 3 months" is a lie.

Anyone would support a person doing the former. It represents dedication and provides encouragement to others wanting to do the same.

But the latter, this "fluent in 3 months" thing, just forces him to wiggle around on what "fluent" means and what he can actually do. It's amazing that he would make this statement publicly and not even take a listening test, but, well . . . excuse me while I do 100 one-arm pushups.

Whew, that was exhilarating. So anyway, plenty of people on this site have studied hard for 3 months, many for much longer, and know exactly what kind of progress to expect. There are lots of sharp people here, with a lot of inventive methods, so for Benny to say he's got this "hack" for learning languages would naturally require some proof.

I'd respect him a lot if after 3 months, he said, "You know what? I was wrong. It's actually not possible to become fluent in Japanese so quickly. Hard language. My bad."

I'll add that Japan has no shortage of people who studied for a few months and then came here to have shallow conversations in broken Japanese. So for one more person to do it, and film himself in the process is, yeah, I'd say pointless.

New video:

Hmm... his 'accent' is getting worse. I have trouble understanding him between his broken grammar and his tendency to switch vowels around arbitrarily. I've seen him logged in here even though he's not posted in awhile... for which I can hardly blame him given the length and tone of this thread ... but all the same, it's clear to me that he's not taking to heart the criticism of his pronunciation. Maybe he thinks its all sour grapes, but seriously... this is barely comprehensible.

Go Benny!
He’s doing great for 2 months of learning. He was able to say, for example, “話そうとした” and “話せるよ” (note the final particle). This is second to third year stuff for university learners. (I think ~そうとする form is covered in Genki II, not I, for example).
His accent is fine. I could understand him. His Skype interlocutor could understand him. What’s with the curmudgeonly condemnations?
Is he fluent? Depends on how you define fluency: either (a) ability to communicate with others in a language (b) ability to use a language to the extent that you sound completely native all the time.
Most language workers (linguists and teachers etc.) would define it as (a) and in that case Benny is fast getting there.
The (b) definition is what you get in Hollywood, such as in the BW movie version of Robinson Crusoe where Man Friday at the end of the movie speaks with a BBC accent. In reality, it so rarely happens for adults there is no point in talking about it. I don’t think Benny claims to reach (b) even if, with a tad of hyperbole, he claims people sometimes mistake him for a native. (Sometimes we all get mistaken for something.)

Feck the begrudgers Benny!

raharney Wrote:What’s with the curmudgeonly condemnations?

Hahaha.

For what its worth I agree with you. I think Benny is doing just fine.

Nowhere near what he originally claimed he'd be able to do but ... we all knew that already. And I think his accent probably could be improved just by putting some more effort in, and I don't think its a big time sink for him to try and do that.

When he found out those girls were Chinese I was hoping he was going to give his Mandarin a whirl, that other language he has listed as one he speaks, but sadly he didn't. Given that was quite a while back now I wouldn't be suprised if hes more or less forgotten his Chinese entirely.

Which makes me wonder what the point of the whole venture is ... =/

raharney Wrote:This is second to third year stuff for university learners.

Genki II is first year, second semester Japanese (at both my 'home' university and the equivalent at my Japanese university). Maybe it is different where you are, but I think 'third year' is another "tad of hyperbole."