Well it's pretty clear now that he won't get anywhere near fluent in 3 months.

He'd be lucky to break out of A2.

I don't see any racism here, that's a strange thing to say.

Criticising an accent has absolutely nothing to do with racism. Just because someone wouldn't like to hear it doesn't make it any less true, but that's still not a race related thing its down to the individual. I knew plenty of people that have the most terrible Japanese accents ever, but race had pretty much nothing to do with that.

It's a strange post and sounds like it comes from someone who doesn't actually know what racism is. Hint: Its not merely criticising someone for something who is foreign.

Besides Benny is probably not even of a difference race to us ffs, hes an irish white guy.

Anyway based on his current progress I dont think he will get the level in his Japanese to what he achieved in Mandarin, and I'm better at judging his Mandarin (as I'm closer t the beginner stage in that) and thought he achieved exactly what you would expect from anyone who studied intensively for 3 months.

But that's not a bad thing, he speaks a lot of languages to a high level and some he learned very quickly, that is something to take inspiration from given he has proven he is not superhuman and his method isn't going to give extraordinary results. Same as anyone else could achieve with the same amount of effort.

must be getting trendy to call people racist or something. I read recently how the vietnam war was a "genocide", using political affiliation as the determining criteria for genocide. Several people here have already mentioned how using these words in inappropriate times cheapens the word when it's actually needed, so I won't mention it again.

moreover I myself already explained the difference between someone who doesn't like a group using a slur towards them, and someone who is A MEMBER OF THAT GROUP taking issue with the cartoonish mannerisms of a group member. is this a TL;DR problem?

just spell my name right ok?

Seems offensive that people seem hell bent on relating to and defining themselves by arbitrary groups. In the case of genetics, "race" isn't a scientific concept; in respect to cultural groups; people seem to forgot that being born into a certain generation doesn't make you any more attached to people born in a similar cultural context a few hundred, thousand, or whatever pittance of years, evolutionarily speaking, ago, than anyone else living on the planet today.

As though cultures are static monoliths which define people, as opposed to the reality that they are merely the aftermath of people since passed by. If anything, it is a pastiche of humans as a species, valued by people who value ideals more than people.

Less a problem and more like missing the point of what it is like to be alive in the present instead of defined by the past.

NightSky Wrote:Besides Benny is probably not even of a difference race to us ffs, hes an irish white guy.

No idea why you assume people are white. You're right in that criticizing his accent definitely isn't racism though.

[Zgarbas]

Am I a racist if I automatically judge any locals who claim native-like fluency in English but have a strong Eastern-European accent?

Zgarbas Wrote:Am I a racist if I automatically judge any locals who claim native-like fluency in English but have a strong Eastern-European accent?

Do you tell them their accent sounds like farting because they're from <country>?

in fairness it was more of a fart-flavor that was being referred to... as opposed to a sound.

his accent being a kind of a potpourri of various flavors, the last one being fart.

[RawToast]

This is going way off topic, but I feel like I must defend myself here. I won't be carrying on with this, because this is not the topic at hand.

Quote:You are from the UK, and yet you think it would be quite acceptable to say to any Irish person to their face that their accent sounded the way DTCamero has just described Benny's.

No, tell me where I said that. I said it was strongly put, but valid. If instead of stating someone was "bad at their job" an employee told me the person in question was "shit at their job" I would say the same. It is strongly, perhaps crudely, put -- but the point is still valid.

woofle Wrote:You are from the UK, and yet you think it would be quite acceptable to say to any Irish person to their face that their accent sounded the way DTCamero has just described Benny's.

I am of Irish decent and I see no attack on the Irish there. On the other hand I can read, I understand what a metaphor is, and because of that I know that the statement isn't calling the Irish accent a fart. It is merely another unwanted element to Benny's Japanese accent, just like my own accent is.

Quote:If I said to my Irish friends what you have just quoted they would disown me and as an afterthought, beat the crap out of me.

Well if they can understand the metaphor then they wouldn't. Do they speak 10+ languages and when learning another the accent at an early point is a mixture spawned from their exposure to those languages, but with an Irish twang on top?

To me, it seems you either are very easily offended or simply create it ex nihilo.

uisukii Wrote:Seems offensive that people seem hell bent on relating to and defining themselves by arbitrary groups. In the case of genetics, "race" isn't a scientific concept; in respect to cultural groups; people seem to forgot that being born into a certain generation doesn't make you any more attached to people born in a similar cultural context a few hundred, thousand, or whatever pittance of years, evolutionarily speaking, ago, than anyone else living on the planet today.

As though cultures are static monoliths which define people, as opposed to the reality that they are merely the aftermath of people since passed by. If anything, it is a pastiche of humans as a species, valued by people who value ideals more than people.

Less a problem and more like missing the point of what it is like to be alive in the present instead of defined by the past.

You know, I find the way you write and your English very strange. Has anyone said that to you before?

Maybe its just me.

ryuudou Wrote:

NightSky Wrote:Besides Benny is probably not even of a difference race to us ffs, hes an irish white guy.

No idea why you assume people are white. You're right in that criticizing his accent definitely isn't racism though.

Fair enough, it would probably be more accurate to say not different race to most of us.

Ah, the school children have come out to gang up on a stranger who said something they object to.

I've come across plenty of playground bullies and frankly, this behaviour is fairly nauseous but seems to be pretty much standard fare when group think takes over. In this case it has lead to racism being defended. Either you have cloth ears, which is sad or you all fully realise what you are doing but feel it is acceptable.

I'll take this one by one.

NightSky

"I don't see any racism here, that's a strange thing to say."

"Criticising an accent has absolutely nothing to do with racism. "

My original comment has nothing to do with "criticising an accent." Go ahead and criticise!

DTCamero's insult was specifically about the brogue and insulting it in about as denigatory a fashion as possible. I am not interested in Benny - I am interested in DTCameros' belief he can make an insult on the grounds of someone's race - and let's face it, it is an insult - and get away with it without being called out on it.

I thought the rest of my post to Raw Toast was self-explanatory.

But try reading it again. As an experiment, you meet a few Irish lads in a bar, and as some friendly banter, you say their brogues are like etc etc.

Do you think they would view you as a racist?

Do you think the lads in the pub are wrong or might they have some grounds for feeling they have been abused?

Remember there is a very long, unpleasant tradition of Irish racism down the years and this thread seems to bare out that for some people, it's alive and kicking today - and they don't have a problem with it.

"Just because someone wouldn't like to hear it doesn't make it any less true, but that's still not a race related thing its down to the individual."

No idea what you mean by this.

"I knew plenty of people that have the most terrible Japanese accents ever, but race had pretty much nothing to do with that."

Please try to make sense - I have no idea whatsoever what it is you are trying to say here. Do you?

dtcamero:

"must be getting trendy to call people racist or something. I read recently how the vietnam war was a "genocide", using political affiliation as the determining criteria for genocide. Several people here have already mentioned how using these words in inappropriate times cheapens the word when it's actually needed, so I won't mention it again."

I think it is you who has cheapened the thread.

But please don't mention it again as it is utterly irrelevant to the matter at hand which is about the gross insult you handed out to somebody else based on the fact they have an Irish accent.

"moreover I myself already explained the difference between someone who doesn't like a group using a slur towards them, and someone who is A MEMBER OF THAT GROUP taking issue with the cartoonish mannerisms of a group member. is this a TL;DR problem?"

As with Nightsky I have no idea what it is you are trying to say here. It seems to make no sense at all to this reader but maybe there's an idea in there that's struggling to get out but I can't figure it out. Helps if you try to write in plain English.

uisukii

I don't quite know where to begin as again you miss the point on an epic scale. Again, it is very difficult to understand you.

"If anything, it is a pastiche of humans as a species, valued by people who value ideals more than people."

You are saying it is wrong to have ideals!? OK, let's go along with that for the moment.

"Less a problem and more like missing the point of what it is like to be alive in the present instead of defined by the past. "

You think it is acceptable to insult - not to criticise but to insult - someone based on their accent? Can you answer this question specifically? Would you say that to a group of Irish guys in a bar? If you did, how do you think they would react? If they were offended, would they be justified in that?

Zgarbas:
"Am I a racist if I automatically judge any locals who claim native-like fluency in English but have a strong Eastern-European accent?"

Again, you shy away from what DTCamero said. You don't deal with the specifics, you try and generalise and abstract away the problem. DTCamero didn't judge, as you put it. He insulted. Do you see the difference?

If you went into a bar and said to an Irish person, your brogue is xxx, that is an insult, no? What exactly have I missed here?

dtcamero

"his accent being a kind of a potpourri of various flavors, the last one being fart."

My friends have said what I did was OK. I'm a tough kid, so I'll just come out and make the same statement again, to show I don't back down even when I have made a revolting and frankly racist comment. I'm pretty brave really, and this comment proves it.

Would you say the same comment to a bunch of Irish guys you hadn't met before? Yes or no?

If no, is it because they might feel offended?

Answer that question specifically.

"just spell my name right ok?"

When you show you can respect other people and apologise for what you said I'll respect how to spell your name. For now, I'm not that fussed.

RawToast
10:42 am

"I am of Irish decent."

Fantastic. Amazing you still can't answer the question. Would you go into a bar and say to some random Irish guys what dtcamero said of Benny's accent? Yes or no?



edited, for clarity, quote marks.

[RawToast]

Painting the forum with a group think mentality shows you have no experience of this forum. Looking at the names that have responded to you shows a list of members whom have debated against each other even in this very thread and on countless occasions elsewhere.

At the moment it looks like you have come to this forum simply to create trouble.

Quote:Fantastic. Amazing you still can't answer the question. Would you go into a bar and say to some random Irish guys what dtcamero said of Benny's accent? Yes or no?

Random Irish guys in a bar are unlikely to speak Japanese and I doubt they'll be up for metaphorical talk on a random polygot they have most likely never heard of after a few drinks.

If your purpose here is simply to attack the community, then you have no purpose here.

Off to do some overtime

Can we please, please save "racism" for actual racism?! Like, as in, discriminating against someone based on the colour of their skin?! It's demeaning to sufferers of actual racism to use the term when someone has insulted someone's accent. Accents are not markers of race.

RawToast Wrote:Painting the forum with a group think mentality shows you have no experience of this forum.

I do have experience of this forum - I have read numerous other threads and found them helpful, interesting or entertaining. I have not participated before because I did not feel the need. In other words, please don't make up stuff when it suits you.

Quote:Looking at the names that have responded to you shows a list of members whom have debated against each other even in this very thread and on countless occasions elsewhere.

At the moment it looks like you have come to this forum simply to create trouble.

You are happy to defend racism? But no, I haven't come to create trouble. But if you view this as trouble, then you are clear on where you stand. You are happy to endorse racism.

Quote:Fantastic. Amazing you still can't answer the question. Would you go into a bar and say to some random Irish guys what dtcamero said of Benny's accent? Yes or no?

Quote:Random Irish guys in a bar are unlikely to speak Japanese and I doubt they'll be up for metaphorical talk on a random polygot they have most likely never heard of after a few drinks. If your purpose here is simply to attack the community, then you have no purpose here.

My purpose was to call out a cheap, unpleasant and racist comment for what it is. Interesting however, that in this debate, you feel the ultimate sanction is not to debate, but to simply endorse dtcamero and to throw out someone because they "attacked the community". I have not attacked the community as you put it, I have attacked one individual specifically for racist remarks. Only your conscience can tell you if you and your ancestors are happy defending those remarks.

ktcgx Wrote:Can we please, please save "racism" for actual racism?! Like, as in, discriminating against someone based on the colour of their skin?! It's demeaning to sufferers of actual racism to use the term when someone has insulted someone's accent. Accents are not markers of race.

I bet you do not even belong in the group you're speaking for.

Thats because no sufferer of actual racism would be so thin-skinned as to be demeaned by this kind of thing.

[RawToast]

It's quite clear from my posts that I am not defending racism, because I feel there is no racism to defend.

Quote:Ah, the school children have come out to gang up on a stranger who said something they object to.

I've come across plenty of playground bullies and frankly, this behaviour is fairly nauseous but seems to be pretty much standard fare when group think takes over. In this case it has lead to racism being defended. Either you have cloth ears, which is sad or you all fully realise what you are doing but feel it is acceptable.

This is an attack on the community, but if liking a group to a bunch of playground of bullies is not an attack in your mind then so be it.

Liking the forum to a set of playground bullies; belittling the members as schoolchildren; placing yourself on a higher moral plane; putting words of racism and defending racism in others mouths -- this animosity is not tolerated here. Frankly I have had enough of your little tirade.

This website is a labour of love, animosity or competition will not be tolerated.

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=180

Feel free to only half read what I post and the original metaphor and create your own conclusions on the intentions of others elsewhere this month.

Now I dislike being called a racist as much as the next guy, but frankly am too lazy to defend myself by writing out all the same stuff I wrote about 4 pages ago.

edit:eh? it's gone... that was actually relevant. so I'll write this out for this poor bloke who's probably not reading any longer...

1. My mother is Irish born in Dublin.
2. My father is English, so I am fully aware of the idea of Irish racism.
3. It's a carnard, like many other racisms that don't actually pertain to a race... a way for people to use political identity for personal benefit. People just hated the irish and wanted to kill them. but they are not a race.
4. The issue of accents at hand here is not people's accents, in their native language, sounding bad. Critiquing someone's accent in a second language is an entirely different thing and that is the essential point being missed here.
5. In a second language, bringing in a bunch of other languages is in fact a flaw/mistake.
6. **When speaking JAPANESE** Benny's irish accent does in fact smell like fart. (sounding like a fart is a little weird but maybe I could follow that reasoning if there were a runny poo coming out alongside that fart...?)
7. When speaking English his accent is perfectly fine.

In all seriousness we've gone pretty far off track with huge long posts, and we've already fought this whole fight, beginning to end, once before in this thread... even if you can't read it any longer.
I realize that I was that beginning of both incidents, for which I do feel a little responsible for causing a ruckus, even though I believe I was justified in defending my position (i.e. the not racism position). So, like a guy at a club who steps on an big dude's white puma and causes a rediculous kerfuffle, twice, I'm sorry to the forum members for distracting you from benny. he's enough for 3 threads but we only have one.
I do think tho that there is a certain intellectual level to the debate on this forum and this thread by continuation, which is rare on the internet and ought not be dumbed down in order to avoid causing incidents like this. my two yen.

Yeah I think he got banned, but from what I saw his main issue was:
Irish accent = fart.

But he can't defend himself anymore so I don't want to put words in his mouth.

Actual serious question:
If there were a Japanese polyglot similar to Benny and was speaking French with hints of Italian, Spanish, American (English), Greek, and other accents being the conflicting smells, then would the Japanese be the fart in this case?

NightSky Wrote:You know, I find the way you write and your English very strange. Has anyone said that to you before?

Maybe its just me.

You've stated similar before. You've also stated how "boring" it is. Why you keep doing this is beyond me. That is, I see no reason to stop people and tell them that I find their style of expression to be uninspired, vapid, pedestrian, etc. any other polarizing facet. It seems a little pointless and, if anything, obnoxious.

It's not just you, though, if that makes you feel any more confident in your assessment. Others have remarked that how I manipulate language to be interesting, sometimes intelligent; otherwise memorable. At the end of the day, however, it's still a remark upon style and not really engaging in dialogue. May as well remark upon whether or whether not the weather is well remarked upon enough and leave it at that.


The point, which I cannot assume any comprehension or lack of on your behalf, as the actual content was not addressed any manner, is that "racism" is in itself rather meaningless. For those both the afflicter and afflicted. Violence and bullying exist on a physical level, but for the many, "racism" is a filter they choose to wear and choose to find offense thusly. Cultural baggage no one is forcing people to carry entirely over the crook of their spines, downwards.

For example, in the same way, in this instance, dtcamero is choosing to be offended by Benny Lewis' display of culture, I could choose to be offended, as an Australian, by many of the arguably caricature displays of Australiana, or whatever people call it. Having Irish ancestry, I could also choose to be offended by Benny Lewis. But that's it, isn't it? A choice. People act like these representations and presentations of a culture one decides to define a part of their existence as being, as though a personal offense. As though there is a "correct" way to go about expressing it and an "incorrect, personally offensive" way to go about grandstanding it.

That is to say, people offended by people 'distorting', or what ever No True Scotsman has to say about it, are using it as an excuse to be offended. This is what people do who are not having to live in an environment where majority in-groups forcibly destroy the well-being of minority out-groups. They are so wrapped up in their obsession with identifying with whatever they can self-validate, that use it as an antenna for picking up on all things to be offended by. It's no different as with religious groups. Those who try to argue genetic links are forgetting that phenotypes are not a geneotypical expression, and that "races" are a cultural, not scientific, construct. It boils down to an argument of "birthright".

Or, generally speaking: a cop-out.

Actually I'm kind of asking from curiosity. This thread has gone off topic so many times I'm essentially considering it a free for all at this point.

Do you speak the same way you write? When speaking to foreigners who don't have English as a first language, do you speak/write the same way? Or are you able to tone down the "interesting, intelligent, memorable" way of which you speak?

Before I said you were boring, which was mostly related to the content you were writing. Here my question is really more about style.

I'm genuinely curious about the effect it has when talking to foreigners in English. I have a lot of foreign friends who speak good English, but I'm quite sure many of them wouldn't be able to understand anything you write. Even I find it quite hard work honestly. I'm genuinely curious about the impact of having such a speaking/writing style.

Frankly I don't think I have the vocabulary or command of the English language to write the way you do, so its interesting to me.

NightSky Wrote:You know, I find the way you write and your English very strange. Has anyone said that to you before?
Maybe its just me.

Yes it is just you. You have a low tolerance level for complex morpho-syntax and/or ideas.

The word "racism" has obviously shifted a bit in its meaning as the word "race" doesn't refer to ethnic groups per se any more. But it once did so it is not totally crazy to use it in that sense.

I think, though, it is more accurate to describe dtcamero as simply rude, ignorant, and immature, with a slightly inflated sense of his own wit.
But he has kindly provided us with his own biography which gives us a Freudian insight into his recurring subconscious ruptures of hibernophobia.

Outside of the fantastic horror movie Leprechaun, I don't think anyone has ever actually had a case of Hibernophobia.
maybe that was actually the meaning behind the work, now that I think about it...

[s0apgun]

Closed until Benny releases his next video.

Reason: yall need jesus

[s0apgun]

Benny's latest video... http://youtu.be/nvASinmyZpQ