dtcamero Wrote:

Benny Lewis the language Leprechaun Wrote:“[L]earning the polite form before the dictionary form makes no sense.” – Kim Tae

The above quote comes from Kim Tae’s Complete Guide Japanese Grammar

sigh.

(http://www.fluentin3months.com/formal-japanese/)

Man, THREE lessons.

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/polite
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/honorific
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/requests

I'm pretty sure that's all that there is about politeness in Tae Kim, and that's pretty much all the essentials right there.

He could have learned those in the time it took to type that. Also what's the deal with the Kim Tae thing? Is that just the reversed order thing or a glaring error.

Haych Wrote:He could have learned those in the time it took to type that.

He only wrote the introduction. It's a guest post. The bit after the *********************** (which is where it says Benny wrote it himself) seems like something that gets automatically appended to every post.

Alternatively, since it says he'd already been studying Japanese for two months by the time he found Tae Kim's, clearly the key to being fluent in 3 months is to be bad at math - he also says he started less than a month ago.

Ya I also noticed that it's in the 'guest post' category...

But then guest posters generally make a point to introduce themselves at least once, if not several times...
There is not a mention of the mysterious guest-poster's name anywhere in the whole article.
I don't think Benny's letting that many people write guest posts that they have stopped bothering to introduce themselves.

And then at the bottom it says specifically "this article was written by Benny Lewis"...

I think he's just bad at HTML...

dtcamero Wrote:There is not a mention of the mysterious guest-poster's name anywhere in the whole article.

Are we reading the same article? It's in the very first paragraph.

ha! foot-violently-removed-from-mouth. Thank you.

Yeah. There's plenty of confusion to go around with this one. I think the italicized part in the beginning is written by Benny, then the rest is where his friend takes over. So it was his friend who discovered Tae Kim 2 months into his studies. Scanning over it again, I didn't see if he said how many months into his studies he is now.

And yeah, that 'this article was written by Benny Lewis' thing looks like its automatically appended to all his pages. I've seen that before on his site where it didn't belong. He should really fix that.

"Benny Lewis the language Leprechaun"

Yes, great to see Hibernophobia alive and well.

[s0apgun]

TIL: Hibernophobia

s0apgun Wrote:TIL: Hibernophobia

TIL: TIL

@raharney
Perhaps you should take up you concerns directly with TheIrishPolyglot. Of all the photos he must have from so many years of traveling, the one he selected for his "About" page has him in a giant leprechaun costume! And ... something even more egregious... he introduces himself as a non-religious, non-drinker!

There's more: the IrishPolyglot also refers to himself repeatedly as a "traveller". I reckon he just considers the "tourist" label beneath him. (Being such a famous international cultural ambassador and all that.) But who knows? I bet there's some kind of subversive statement on the social construction of identity lurking there for you to hone your Postmodernism101 chops on. Seize the podium!

As for decamero, your assumption that he must also be a bigot towards his Japanese neighbors seems a tad unwarranted. I wasn't aware that self-hatred necessarily translates into bigotry. [edit: I hadn't noticed that raharney had deleted this part of the post.]
Oh, btw, does "hibernophobe" include folks of Irish blood? Perhaps there's a more accurate fancy word you'd care to share?

Then again, sweet decamero might be perfectly innocent. He might have called Bennie something really offensive which Fabrice's autocorrect gizmo autocorrected. Come to think of it, leprechauns and goblins ought to take action against Fabrice.

I happen to like leprechauns. I think I even slept with a leprechaun once. I'm developing a bit of a crush on Bennie too

Thora Wrote:...There's more: the IrishPolyglot also refers to himself repeatedly as a "traveller". I reckon he just considers the "tourist" label beneath him. (Being such a famous international cultural ambassador and all that.) But who knows? I bet there's some kind of subversive statement on the social construction of identity lurking there for you to hone your Postmodernism101 chops on. Seize the podium!...

Or maybe he's just proudly displaying his Pavee heritage.

Okay, now I'm definitely over-thinking this.

Thora Wrote:@raharney
Perhaps you should take up you concerns directly with TheIrishPolyglot. Of all the photos he must have from so many years of traveling, the one he selected for his "About" page has him in a giant leprechaun costume! And ... something even more egregious... he introduces himself as a non-religious, non-drinker!

There's more: the IrishPolyglot also refers to himself repeatedly as a "traveller". I reckon he just considers the "tourist" label beneath him. (Being such a famous international cultural ambassador and all that.) But who knows? I bet there's some kind of subversive statement on the social construction of identity lurking there for you to hone your Postmodernism101 chops on. Seize the podium!

Oh, btw, does "hibernophobe" include folks of Irish blood? Perhaps there's a more accurate fancy word you'd care to share?

I happen to like leprechauns. I think I even slept with a leprechaun once. I'm developing a bit of a crush on Bennie too

In response to your first paragraph: As we try to explain to our children - there is a big difference between wearing a costume for a harmless laugh and engaging in generalizing ethnic slurs to belittle someone.

Not sure what the rest of your post is about. Sorry.

Haych Wrote:

dtcamero Wrote:

Benny Lewis the language Leprechaun Wrote:“[L]earning the polite form before the dictionary form makes no sense.” – Kim Tae

The above quote comes from Kim Tae’s Complete Guide Japanese Grammar

sigh.

(http://www.fluentin3months.com/formal-japanese/)

Man, THREE lessons.

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/polite
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/honorific
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/requests

I'm pretty sure that's all that there is about politeness in Tae Kim, and that's pretty much all the essentials right there.

He could have learned those in the time it took to type that. Also what's the deal with the Kim Tae thing? Is that just the reversed order thing or a glaring error.

This isn't really fair or accurate. Reading a few lessons of Tae Kim is hardly learning everything about Japanese politeness. And even if it was, hes talking more about constantly *using* the desu masu forms when speaking, and saying its probably best avoided for the complete beginner.

And actually I agree with him and think its a fair comment. I learned the masu form first too like everyone else, but then changed trying to focus on only the plain form and have always found that more beneficial.

Hes not saying don't read about it, hes saying you don't have to use it all your time. You are missing that point so you can sneak another criticism in.

vonPeterhof Wrote:Or maybe he's just proudly displaying his Pavee heritage.

Okay, now I'm definitely over-thinking this.

Nah, that was kinda my point - that raharney seems to me to be overthinking things. =)
(here and in an earlier thread I indirectly referred to which caused a bit of a ruckus)

[edit: replaced accidentally quoted post with this post]

Thora Wrote:

vonPeterhof Wrote:Or maybe he's just proudly displaying his Pavee heritage.

Okay, now I'm definitely over-thinking this.

Nah, that was kinda my point - that raharney seems to me to be overthinking things. =)
(here and in an earlier thread I indirectly referred to which caused a bit of a ruckus)

[edit: replaced accidentally quoted post with this post]

"overthinking"? - new newspeak for thoughtcrime.

Ok now I feel like I should clear a few things up...

For the record, my mother was born and raised in Dublin, and half my family still lives in Ireland, so I am allowed to call Benny a Leprechaun. He is an annoyingly happy-go-lucky, look on the bright side of lifer with reddish hair, short stature, a pot belly and a slow drawling brogue.

I love all Irish people that do not turn themselves into such ridiculous stereotypes of their country. I've been to Ireland over a hundred times and I don't think I've ever met someone to whom I had such an intrinsic aversion (not hatred but aversion... I want to run away whenever I see him do a head-bob as he's about to start speaking).

And we haven't even gotten to the language stuff yet. If you have a way to learn languages as different as japanese without touching text, ok fine... but then maybe you oughtn't write pages and pages of ignorance while you're in the middle of figuring things out.
Otherwise you might end up quoting from Mr. Kim Tae twice like he did in that essay. Maybe you should just go somewhere private and work out your embarrassing demons there... because it is not pretty.
To break it down to babyfood-size bites: Benny doesn't understand how name-order works with asian names, or his guest poster doesn't... either way it's on his blog so same difference. I don't want to make too big a deal about this, but it's not exactly a hard (Korean) name and it's all over the website he linked to twice...

this man is an idiot.

dtcamero Wrote:For the record, my mother was born and raised in Dublin, and half my family still lives in Ireland, so I am allowed to call Benny a Leprechaun.

My parents were born in Australia; almost all of my family lives and breeds here. I am no more "allowed" to label people as "bogans" as anyone else, from anywhere else in the world. Do you know what racism is? It's when you review the human population into "races" of "peoples" and make certain double standards in respect to judgment. Anyone can call anyone anything. A few generations is meaningless and to make the claim otherwise is not only a racist claim, but the argument is a dead-end for dialogue.

If a "black" American calls another "black" person a "dirty nigger", in a derogatory manner- regardless of the speakers skin pigmentation and minor phenotypical differences- to comment is still based on simplistic racism.

Quote:He is an annoyingly happy-go-lucky, look on the bright side of lifer

How exactly is a positive attitude a negative?

Quote:with reddish hair, short stature, a pot belly and a slow drawling brogue.

Nothing to do with language self-study, though.

Quote:I love all Irish people that do not turn themselves into such ridiculous stereotypes of their country.

You're operating under the same stereotypical attitude, though. If he wants to present himself in a certain manner, then so be it. If you haven't noticed, presenting yourself a certain way is kind of the default for Internet personalities. But what do you know about him personally?

Quote:I've been to Ireland over a hundred times and I don't think I've ever met someone to whom I had such an intrinsic aversion (not hatred but aversion... I want to run away whenever I see him do a head-bob as he's about to start speaking).

Unfortunate but there are probably going to be people like that in life. It would be nice if people didn't get to us, but sometimes they just do. This has nothing to do with his language study, though.

Quote:And we haven't even gotten to the language stuff yet.

The language stuff is the only relevant stuff here.

Quote:If you have a way to learn languages as different as japanese without touching text, ok fine... but then maybe you oughtn't write pages and pages of ignorance while you're in the middle of figuring things out.

Otherwise you might end up quoting from Mr. Kim Tae twice like he did in that essay. Maybe you should just go somewhere private and work out your embarrassing demons there... because it is not pretty.
To break it down to babyfood-size bites: Benny doesn't understand how name-order works with asian names, or his guest poster doesn't... either way it's on his blog so same difference. I don't want to make too big a deal about this, but it's not exactly a hard (Korean) name and it's all over the website he linked to twice...

It was a bit of a fumble. For his own sake, one might hope that in future his posts are little further proof-edited prior to posting. Beginners make mistakes. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, afterall. lol. Millions of people all over who think they know a lot more than they do. It might be fairer to make the same criticisms at least after 3 months of his "fluency in 3 months" campaign, if the same article were to be posted.

I wouldn't really expect someone who has studied Japanese for less than 3 months to really understand much at all, and if anything, wouldn't you sort of expect them to say things which might seem silly, in respect to the language?

Quote:this man is an idiot.

This "idiot" has managed competency in multiple languages, manages to get around the world and has a blog/internet persona with a lot of interest. Are you judging him based on the persona he has created and presents, or do you know him personally?


But for the sake of argument, I will agree that he is a complete baboon. Now, what has that got to do with his language success? Isn't it possible to discuss his approach, efforts and outcomes without using personal insults? I could say that your argument is idiotic (well, I wouldn't, because I don't think it is) but that's a lot different than calling you an idiot.

now now... let's not go using a phrase like racism when applied to a) a country rather than a race, and b) the word leprechaun which is not a slur.

he makes a foolish clown out of himself, and his countrymen by extension because he identifies himself so explicitly as Irish.

I would also take exception to the idea of his "competency in multiple languages." Dilettanting around in several languages does not a competent person make (even less so a 'fluent' one... hence the rather fervent debate in this thread).

dtcamero Wrote:Ok now I feel like I should clear a few things up...

For the record, my mother was born and raised in Dublin, and half my family still lives in Ireland, so I am allowed to call Benny a Leprechaun. He is an annoyingly happy-go-lucky, look on the bright side of lifer with reddish hair, short stature, a pot belly and a slow drawling brogue.
[...]

EDIT: 'Racism' is probably the most accurate term we can use here, unless you want to inform us of a better term.
/EDIT

First off, Benny doesn't really resemble a leprechaun when it comes to his personality; I honestly don't think a leprechaun would be able to get rid of all their stuff, nor would they be as enthusiastic about people as Benny. In that respect, I'm much more like a leprechaun than he is (I don't trust people and you definitely wouldn't see me getting rid of everything I own).

Oh, and the first sentence of the same paragraph sounds like "*insert race here* can call each other *insert correlating slur here*, but other races can't". You really can't defend yourself there, so I'd suggest conceding that point.

From what I've seen, Benny doesn't edit the guest posts very much (if at all). Unless he's a really good ghost writer, all your concerns about that post should be directed to the actual author.
As a side note, I agree that he needs to fix his template, considering how often he has guest posts during his challenges.

Personally, I think his blog posts should be read as diary entries (which they pretty much would be if it weren't a popular blog): it's how he sees the language at the time of writing. Maybe that'll change when he gets to Japan and realizes that almost everything uses the standard politeness, but either way, it's his choice on how to go about things. That's what the recap posts are for.

I don't really like his methods, but if this is what entertains and fulfills him (and his wallet), then I don't really care; it's his time to spend. If you really disagree with him that much, leave it alone. If you're going to point out flaws in his perception of politeness in Japanese, at least have the decency to politely disagree and argue your point. Petty attacks don't do you any good.

In fact, the fighting on this thread needs to end. It's almost entirely pointless. If you're going to argue, do it properly and only do it on the topic. The particular post I've quoted at least mentions Benny; most of the other fights have been completely off topic.
This thread is nearly as bad as the AJATT thread.

EDIT: grammar

NightSky Wrote:You are missing that point so you can sneak another criticism in.

*sigh*
You know what, maybe you're right. But when I first looked at that, I couldn't help that all I saw is yet another bit of intellectual discouragement. First it was "don't learn kanji" then "don't take the JLPT" then "don't learn kana - romaji aren't that bad" and now its "don't bother with politeness". It seemed like its getting to be a slippery slope at this point... But I guess I can accept that one might want to just adopt a few politeness concepts into their passive vocabulary and just move on to other things... In which case I think I can maybe accept the advice as kinda.. in a way.. in these circumstances.. a little bit... good (ugh).

I think its about time I excused myself from the thread, though. I've realized hearing about this guy's methodology and reading the discussion here just makes me more and more angry. It's about time I moved on to something new--I need to find a nice, positive place where everything is sunshine I can go on cavorting and thinking happy thoughts.. So yea, can't promise I'll read any responses from here.

sholum Wrote:

dtcamero Wrote:Ok now I feel like I should clear a few things up...

For the record, my mother was born and raised in Dublin, and half my family still lives in Ireland, so I am allowed to call Benny a Leprechaun. He is an annoyingly happy-go-lucky, look on the bright side of lifer with reddish hair, short stature, a pot belly and a slow drawling brogue.
[...]

First off, Benny doesn't really resemble a leprechaun when it comes to his personality; I honestly don't think a leprechaun would be able to get rid of all there stuff, nor would they be as enthusiastic about people as Benny. In that respect, I'm much more like a leprechaun than he is (I don't trust people and you definitely wouldn't see me getting rid of everything I own).

Oh, and the first sentence of the same paragraph sounds like "*insert race here* can call each other *insert correlating slur here*, but other races can't". You really can't defend yourself there, so I'd suggest conceding that point.

From what I've seen, Benny doesn't edit the guest posts very much (if at all). Unless he's a really good ghost writer, all your concerns about that post should be directed to the actual author.
As a side note, I agree that he needs to fix his template, considering how often he has guest posts during his challenges.

Personally, I think his blog posts should be read as diary entries (which they pretty much would be if it weren't a popular blog): it's how he sees the language at the time of writing. Maybe that'll change when he gets to Japan and realizes that almost everything uses the standard politeness, but either way, it's his choice on how to go about things. That's what the recap posts are for.

I don't really like his methods, but if this is what entertains and fulfills him (and his wallet), then I don't really care; it's his time to spend. If you really disagree with him that much, leave it alone. If you're going to point out flaws in his perception of politeness in Japanese, at least have the decency to politely disagree and argue your point. Petty attacks don't do you any good.

In fact, the fighting on this thread needs to end. It's almost entirely pointless. If you're going to argue, do it properly and only do it on the topic. The particular post I've quoted at least mentions Benny; most of the other fights have been completely off topic.
This thread is nearly as bad as the AJATT thread.

again with the race/slur misconception. I've never checked the 'Irish' box on my census application. Moreover Leprechaun is not a slur, but rather a common cultural image used in cereal packaging for example.
My point in pointing out that I am Irish was that I am not 'Hibernophobic,' but rather that I love Ireland and have issues with this guy in particular.
~way way off topic but I don't think anyone was really phobic of the Irish, they just wanted to kill/subjugate them.~

moreover, sir, this is the general discussion Index grouping and we are having a General Discussion pertaining to this silly man Benny Lewis, and his 'Fluent in Japanese in 3 months' claim.
If you would like to censor discussion there are plenty of sites in Chinese you can visit.

@dtcamero Sorry no quotes or direct replies to what you wrote, but the vibe of your posts here is hostile, which is something we aren't familiar with on these forums. You're giving yourself a bad image, at least for me.
You can criticize in a more appropriate way or ignore this thread all together, right?

undead_saif Wrote:@dtcamero ...the vibe of your posts here is hostile, which is something we aren't familiar with on these forums.

if someone called you a racist, relative to your own ancestral country moreover, wouldn't you feel the need to take issue with that?
It's a far bigger issue for me than benny is.

There is a fundamental difference between calling someone a racist- which is a characterization- and criticizing what someone has said has been a racist argument/comment. Couldn't this occurrence be the latter?

there's not actually. not for racism the arguer/argument separation doesn't exist.
moreover i'm not going to get into race/nationality again.

Uisukii your earlier argument re people using stereotypes to label people of their own group doesn't follow when the labler is objecting to the target becoming the stereotype. I would much rather if benny did not become a stereotype but he is and that is the issue. not that all irish are leprechauns.

I appreciate that my initial wording may have made it seem that way. But I already explained this above, and if you try to understand what I'm saying instead of just trying to win the argument, you will see that it is pretty obvious that my comment had nothing to do with stereotyping groups of people.