qwertyytrewq Wrote:"through nothing but immersion, an 平凡人 like myself can pass with ease a test that seems to instill so much fear in people." according to my thread: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=11232

100% immersion is an extremely unwise idea.

According to, mostly, people who either haven't tried it or tried it and failed miserably. Plus, your description forbids using any grammar resources.

>90% immersion has worked great for me. Native materials from day 15 or so. Several hours a day, yes, but it's been fun all the way.

(side note: 100% of my immersion is of the visual novel kind. I'm not currently interested in speaking or writing Japanese. Maybe once I'm fluent.)

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Which is it?

Seems kinda awkward to continue the discussion about his post. Might be best to let the dog fall asleep, and then let it lie.

uisukii Wrote:Sorry if the novellas offended anyone. I guess all that time reading is boring. Hopefully the people who are using any of the DoJG work that I've typed up/still working on and allowing people to use it as they will, isn't also mind numbingly boring, considering the hundreds of hours involved.

Nobody was questioning your value as a forum member. There were just a couple of people who said that you might be being unreasonable in this case. (I'm not saying they're right or anything--I'm obviously biased being the other party and all)

Not to interrupt, but Benny does have another post up about why one shouldn't bother with 丁寧語 (polite language) at the beginning of studying.

Not sure about this. Of course, when I studied, it was with a textbook that started out with です/ます. In reality, you're just learning at the beginning a couple extra auxiliary verbs that you do pretty much need to know. I don't see the problem, really, as long as you quickly follow it with learning how to form plain language, too.

^ Yeah it's much of a muchness I think. There are arguments for starting with either one, but basically you NEED to be able to use both anyway so who cares?

That said... As someone who started all desu/masu with univeresity classes, it's still easier for me to converse in that way even after living in Japan for the last year...

*gotta keep chatting with those elementary kids!

Long time lurker. This is a great website but often seems to descend into nastiness, like most forums. Was worse before. Things are said that would not be said face to face. Frankly, where I am from if you called someone you Liar the best outcome would be a right-hander thrown or worst, a stabbing. It just would not be tolerated. The same at work. Anywhere. Oh, but that would be very naughty wouldn't it? Teacher would be very cross. To me, they are the same attitude. Nasty and aggressive, nevermind insensitive.

Mr Moleman was perhaps a bit casual in the way he presented his initial claim and corrected it later. But I understand where he is coming from. He was trying to summarize the actual time. Do you really count learning Hiragana on a wet Sunday afternoon years ago as I did? I think not. Do you really count long break?. Not really. Sure the stuff in not quite new, but mostly forgotten. What about ineffective study methods, would that not have a deleterious effect on study time? I think he was being honest - how do you really sum up false starts. He also honest about N1. It is a great achievement but does not equal fluency or mastery. Get it, if you must. Then move on to fluency - whatever that is.

The only accurate way is to log all study/exposure hours. Most of us are not going to do that.

Actually I have met someone who did the old JLPT1 in under two years and maybe could have sooner if the test dates had worked in her favour. I could not do it as I don't have 8 hours a day to study and I am not nearly as bright. Again, it comes down to hours worked.

The foreign office used to train to complete fluency in 2 years - way beyond N1. Again, almost a full-time occupation with bright motivated people. Note French was 6 months +.

Also, regarding AKITOD. Some of the comments he/she has received are also unacceptable. Again, I know two mixed marriage families where Japanese is not spoken at all, (one of them did start and gave up, which is a shame). They are in the same position are us. They may have an advantage if they decided to learn in that they won't have to waste time on Skype looking for a suitable conversation partner! Even then, you have to be a certain level to benefit. Don't knock his achievements just because you cannot relate to it! Or worse are just cynical.........so and sos. Blimey mate, there are millions of mixed marriage couples with children that cannot speak one of the parents so called non native languages! On that basis I should speak fluent Irish but gor, blimey guv, I aint got a monkey's. Stroll on! Somefink must be bleedin' wrong wiv me! Gotta get outa London.

Fair play to the person who takes 8 years to get to N1 but can only study one hour a day and fair play to those who can and are able to study full time and get N1 in under two years. Neither is easy. N1 is not fluency. According to my Japanese friends it is about high school level. Shag me sideways on a Sunday afternoon !! if I get to that standard I will be well happy.

Do you realize how negative and demotivating some of you sound?

I reckon you are all Nestor is disguise. No I don't have empirical evidence for this. And I cannot quote my sources or research! Just a feeling. Just a feeling.

Anyway, you give me any grief over this post, I am sending the boys around!

Sorted!

No wonder Fabrice did a runner.

" Things are said that
would not be said face to face.
Frankly, where I am from if you called
someone you Liar the best outcome
would be a right-hander thrown or
worst, a stabbing. It just would not
be tolerated."

To be fair, if moleman was talking face to face, he would be less likely to make the claims he has made in this thread (EG. his judgment on his own abilities would be more truthful and less embellished EG. (sleep through half of N1)). Hence, there would also be less likely for accusations of lying/lying by omission.

I don't know where you come from but violence is unacceptable against mere words and in that situation that says more about the person committing the physical violence and less about the person making verbal claims.

"Do you realize how negative and demotivating some of you sound?"

Maybe our opinions here can be considered negative and demotivating.

But on the flipside, do you realize that claims of "N1 is so easy I can study Japanese for 1 year and sleep through half the test and pass" and "Fluent (definition of fluent aside) in 3 months!" can be considered unrealistic, overly positive, and in the short term motivating, but nevertheless in the medium/long term demotivating?

"I reckon you are all Nestor is disguise."

I reckon you are HonyakuJoshua in disguise My source is your indirect threats of violence and particularly the reference to stabbing and the fact that you live in the same country.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:do you realize that claims of "N1 is so easy I can study Japanese for 1 year and sleep through half the test and pass"

No one has or is making such a claim.

uisukii Wrote:

qwertyytrewq Wrote:do you realize that claims of "N1 is so easy I can study Japanese for 1 year and sleep through half the test and pass"

No one has or is making such a claim.

How about "I can study Japanese for one year and sleep through half the test and pass" then.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:How about "I can study Japanese for one year and sleep through half the test and pass" then.

One year and some months (which later turned out to be over 12 months...)

qwertyytrewq Wrote:

uisukii Wrote:

qwertyytrewq Wrote:do you realize that claims of "N1 is so easy I can study Japanese for 1 year and sleep through half the test and pass"

No one has or is making such a claim.

How about "I can study Japanese for one year and sleep through half the test and pass" then.

Page 15:

mr_hans_moleman Wrote:I took the test on July 4, 2010 at Saitama University.

Yes, I studied a lot. Like I said before, I did not have to study the previous JLPT tests. I tried doing one of the sample tests and found it quite easy, so I dropped my pencil halfway through it and decided that I was very much ready for the N1 test.

1 year and something months = 1 year and "16" months = 2 years and 4 months.

I passed the test after studying for 2 years and 4 months. It doesn't necessarily mean that I needed to study for 2 years and 4 months to pass the test. I could have taken the test at my 1 year and 6 month mark and still have passed it. But, who can really know those things?

"my question to these people that have sacrificed everything to speak japanese so quickly is...: do you have anything interesting to say?"

After you get to a certain level, you can learn things using Japanese as the medium. I learned how to play the piano by searching for tutorials in Japanese. I would look up recipes in Japanese.

I think we all have something interesting to say. We just have to talk about our life experiences, our happy moments and those moments that make us cringe. I'm not good at telling jokes but I can spin on my head

I have never taken a single class in Japanese. I learned it all by myself. I could have expedited the process if I had some guidance.Yes, I had to sacrifice a lot of time to learn Japanese but a whole new world opened up to me as result.

When was my last date?
That's all I did when I was in Japan.
If you are a single lady, pretty and looking, then let's have a SKYPE date. lol
Just don't tell my girlfriend.

Devoting yourself to your studies doesn't mean that you'll be a hermit. When I lived in Tokyo, I was talking to everybody(well, just the pretty girls).

If you want to talk more, let's talk in Japanese. I need the practice!

Perhaps it would be more productive is the claims been criticized were actually read.

it seems that if you put in the effort moleman he claims he did, then you can certainly get great results in any language. That's thousand's of sentences and patterns that you're being exposed to for weeks on end... almost constantly.

Also, like others have said, at what point can you say you started studying? I took Spanish class last year (awful), if I later decided to try and pursue Fluency in Spanish, would I have to say I started studying in September 2012? I learned nothing from that course.

I don't know why some people seem so offended by others successes. I'd prefer to look at what they did and see if I could mimic it somehow.

I don't think "I didn't do it, and I don't know anyone else who did it, therefore you didn't do it" is a valid argument.

[RawToast]

This thread just keeps on descending; so let's stop here with the bickering.

If it continues I will lock this thread until Benny posts another video/article.

uisukii Wrote:Why aren't the already fluent and/or members who have been using Japanese already for years spending time posting in and propagating "日本語 only" threads? Why aren't they starting and continuing audio discussing with other members?

Actually uisukii has a point here - where are these threads in which Tzadeck and JapaneseRuleOf7 (to call out the names) would use Japanese only? Many people here would benefit from that, I'm sure.

*Hopefully RawToast will not consider this post a descending one.

Inny Jan Wrote:

uisukii Wrote:Why aren't the already fluent and/or members who have been using Japanese already for years spending time posting in and propagating "日本語 only" threads? Why aren't they starting and continuing audio discussing with other members?

Actually uisukii has a point here - where are these threads in which Tzadeck and JapaneseRuleOf7 (to call out the names) would use Japanese only? Many people here would benefit from that, I'm sure.

*Hopefully RawToast will not consider this post a descending one.

O.o

You'll find them both stickied to the top of the "general discussion" forum....

The Japanese only one has been around for a loooooooong time... The videos one is recent...

Well, last time I checked, there were merely two threads that were "Japanese only" - that’s quite pathetic for a forum that is about language learning, TBH.

Secondly, those people who are so vocal in this thread and also claim they reached reasonable level in Japanese (again, Tzadek and JapaneseRuleOf7) are not posters in those threads. Interestingly enough, the guy who they are picking up on, mr_hans_moleman, did post there.

This forum needs more Japanese only threads, especially from advanced learners.

He's going to put a new video out on Friday:
https://mobile.twitter.com/irishpolyglot...2021495808

I imagine I'd probably be classed as an advanced learner (though then again this is a small pond), but I'm not sure it'd be of anyone's benefit for me to post in Japanese as my output probably still has unnatural points here and there, which I don't want to pass on.

Having one or two threads to "talk about anything in Japanese" feels somewhat contrived when you're using the language every day in your life anyway... plus they'd always be full of the same few people, especially since most people who reached fluency would probably drift away from a forum focused on the learning process.

Inny Jan Wrote:. . .those people who are so vocal in this thread and also claim they reached reasonable level in Japanese (again, Tzadek and JapaneseRuleOf7) are not posters in those threads. Interestingly enough, the guy who they are picking up on, mr_hans_moleman, did post there.

This forum needs more Japanese only threads . . .

You sure about that?

Jeez, people give me a hard time for my use of ungrammatical English. Now you want a dose of my Japanese?

Like I said in the voice recordings post- using Japanese here isn't really going to get anyone anywhere. And it's kind of awkward if many people can't understand..

The voice recordings are good for motivation for those listening, I suppose. And it's kind of entertaining to do so why not! The Japanese Only text thread, on the other hand, is kind of a difficult beast to deal with.

Most people advanced enough to just exist in Japanese either aren't still lurking on learning forums or are busy using their Japanese in other places. (I'm on FC2 quite a bit).

Vempele Wrote:

qwertyytrewq Wrote:How about "I can study Japanese for one year and sleep through half the test and pass" then.

One year and some months (which later turned out to be over 12 months...)

I think this is the root of evil of this thread, and it's quite weird if you ask me, lol.

Since this is my first post in this thread, I welcome Benny to our forums and wish him the best of luck. On a YouTube video I asked him several questions in several comments and he replied to all of them! That's what I call cool! Thanks Benny!

EDIT: These two videos of his are my favorite:
Top 10 lessons learned in travelling the world 10 years
TEDxSanAntonio - Benny Lewis - Fluent in Three Months - Rapid Language Hacking

[RawToast]

Inny Jan Wrote:Actually uisukii has a point here - where are these threads in which Tzadeck and JapaneseRuleOf7 (to call out the names) would use Japanese only? Many people here would benefit from that, I'm sure.

I like the idea of having another thread for those with weaker abilities; although, that would be precisely what Lang8 is for. Just opening the current reading thread and looking at the first post is enough to deter beginners. Of course, those with stronger writing ability would be free to post there -- just keeping the vocab/grammar/length to a lower level.

Another interesting idea would be to limit oneself to vocab from Core and grammar from a popular resource (DoBJ, TK, or JtMW) -- of course that would be difficult to do!

Quote:He's going to put a new video out on Friday:
https://mobile.twitter.com/irishpolyglo … 2021495808

That's going to be interesting. His room video was a bit like a LONG and slow N5 level listening piece, it'll be interesting to see just how much his speed and vocabulary has improved.

Inny Jan Wrote:This forum needs more Japanese only threads, especially from advanced learners.

I'm not sure, since I don't really see the point of those threads. Not only can you practice writing in Japanese on Lang-8, but you can also interact with real Japanese people beyond just mutual corrections. I guess the one advantage to practice writing Japanese here would be a sense of camaraderie among members, which might be motivating to some. But I just can't see it being beneficial at a level that would outweigh the benefits of posting on places like Lang-8.

Personally, I treated those Japanese only threads the same way I treat all threads--at first skim them, then if it seems interesting read them, and finally if something strikes me post. But it didn't happen. I think the real problem with those threads is they didn't really have topics, so the conversation is really boring. Also, I've seen even on other forums that in those types of threads people often act like 5 year-olds on the school bus--they talk at each other, not with each other. It's like a series of monologues.

(Edit: I guess there is one advantage I can think of--more Japanese threads would allow this forum to get more members that can't speak English.)

I never heard of this guy before but I didn't really like how he came to this forum and bashed the JLPT and some of our learning methods. I stopped reading after the first few pages.

If you study hard enough it won't take long to be conversationally fluent in Japanese. That's where I am right now. But not being able to share my heart with Japanese people to the extent that I want to really hurts me. So that's why I study and work harder so I won't just be conversationally fluent but I'll be at the place where I feel like I can actually connect with people.

A fun exercise would be to take this thread and translate it to japanese.

I usually don't have much to say or write about so I take interesting english content from other folks and translate it and get it corrected. Best thing I've done to get past the intermediate plateau.

This thread is a goldmine of things to translate. Thx!

Tzadeck Wrote:

Inny Jan Wrote:This forum needs more Japanese only threads, especially from advanced learners.

I'm not sure, since I don't really see the point of those threads. Not only can you practice writing in Japanese on Lang-8, but you can also interact with real Japanese people beyond just mutual corrections. I guess the one advantage to practice writing Japanese here would be a sense of camaraderie among members, which might be motivating to some. But I just can't see it being beneficial at a level that would outweigh the benefits of posting on places like Lang-8.

Personally, I treated those Japanese only threads the same way I treat all threads--at first skim them, then if it seems interesting read them, and finally if something strikes me post. But it didn't happen. I think the real problem with those threads is they didn't really have topics, so the conversation is really boring. Also, I've seen even on other forums that in those types of threads people often act like 5 year-olds on the school bus--they talk at each other, not with each other. It's like a series of monologues.

(Edit: I guess there is one advantage I can think of--more Japanese threads would allow this forum to get more members that can't speak English.)

Benny Lewis the language Leprechaun Wrote:“[L]earning the polite form before the dictionary form makes no sense.” – Kim Tae

The above quote comes from Kim Tae’s Complete Guide Japanese Grammar

sigh.

(http://www.fluentin3months.com/formal-japanese/)