dtcamero Wrote:wow this forum is full of khatzumotos who self-studied to N1 in a year and change... amazing!

i didn't say I did it in a year, nor did I say I am currently N1 level. With exception for 1 month when I travelled to Japan (language schools suck, the homestay on the other hand was amazing for progress), yes I self-studied.

I didn't do AJATT really, though I tried to do stuff from JALUP & AJATT in bits and pieces. For example not listening to english music/watching english TV and unsubscribing from english youtube channels.

Tzadeck Wrote:I've never met any native English speaker in real life who passed N1 in less than two years. Or even close. So, 19 months is incredibly fast to be at that level. Then again, you say you're not bothering with the test, so who knows if you would pass it in December.

I do know plenty of Chinese or Taiwanese people who passed it around that time frame.

I am a half-Japanese person who was raised mono-lingually in English. The difference that made for my learning was 2 things.

1. Learning Japanese was about identity more than anything else. Thus why I could do it every day for so long even when it got tough on some days.

2. Once I got to a certain level, I became able/confident enough to speak to my mother in Japanese only (even if I had to explain some ideas when I didn't know the word). I didn't speak to her in Japanese before I was ready, and I didn't receive any teaching from her in Japanese.

So conversationally being half-Japanese accelerated a fair bit. However still 95% is still all the things you do with media/books/anki/language partners etc. But thinking about it I'd argue it as far as JLPT test goes it wouldn't have made much difference except arguably a minor improvement in listening ability (most of my listening learning is podcasts/drama/anime/music/soccer/youtube) cause there's no oral exam and most household conversation/day-day conversation isn't that difficult anyway.

Though like I said, I wouldn't be ready for N1 yet. I'm aiming to reach an equivalent level by the end of the year. Though cause I don't have a crystal ball I can't tell if I'll get there or not.

uisukii Wrote:abbreviated stuff

Well, he does have a point. The information coming from moleman is wildly conflicting. :|

It is also completely fair to state "I have never met anyone who has done it in under 2 years. Or even 3."
Neither have I.
But I want to spread the news that it is possible. And I want to meet the other people doing it. As I've said somewhere else on this forum- I'm addicted to bilingualism and I need to find more. :[

uisukii Wrote:...

Look, I get what you're saying. I was a philosophy major who specialized in epistemology. I think arguing this would be time consuming in addition to just plain boring. My position isn't really what you think it is, and I'm not interested in clarifying. You also seem to think I'm more naive than I actually am about assessing the limitations of my own claims and positions, and that's condescending. It doesn't particularly make me want to talk to you about it.

Tzadeck Wrote:

uisukii Wrote:...

Look, I get what you're saying. I was a philosophy major who specialized in epistemology.

lol that reminds me of a short-lived member of this forum some time ago who goes on long-winded esoteric diatribes when debating and was a likely source of IceCream's "mental breakdown" and following self-ban.

This is a relatively small forum with a relativey large concentration of amusing figures.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:lol that reminds me of a short-lived member of this forum some time ago who goes on long-winded esoteric diatribes when debating and was a likely source of IceCream's "mental breakdown" and following self-ban.

This is a relatively small forum with a relativey large concentration of amusing figures.

Hahaha, oh man was that guy annoying. I'm lucky in that I was always better than IceCream at knowing when to stop arguing. And as I get older I avoid more and more discussions that I don't want to have. I may be a bit crotchety about it, as perhaps you can see here, but it's definitely the way to go on a purely selfish level.

Sad IceCream's gone though; I think she was probably the member of this forum I related to the most. I almost met her once when she was in Japan, but that was when I lived in the countryside and there was a landslide that week, so to get into town I would have had to take a super-long route and I canceled.

@uisukii
You've harshly criticized Tzadeck, and others, for being too quick to make assumptions and failing to charitably interpret others' posts. However, many of your retorts leave the impression that you're doing the very things you criticize.

In reply to Tzadeck, you say:

uisukii Wrote:Whether or not you think that drdunlap comes off as more reasonable as mr_hans_moleman is entirely irrelevant.

If Tzadeck made the exact same claim, I'm sure you would have have critiqued it for failing to give a reason for why the reasonableness of drdunlap or mr_hans_moleman is irrelevant. However, you bluntly claim that it is irrelevant without offering any evidence whatsoever. Isn't a claim without evidence the very definition of an assumption? To be fair, I admit that there are warranted and unwarranted assumptions, and I address this issue below.

Before pointing out any assumptions, however, couldn't we at least try to develop a convincing account for Tzadeck's claim that reasonableness is relevant? With minimal effort, I can readily think of an example in which reasonableness is relevant: the boy who cried wolf, who unreasonably shouts "wolf" to warn his village when, in fact, there is no wolf. It's unreasonable because the purpose of shouting "wolf" is to warn the village of a wolf. But if someone yells "wolf" when there is no wolf, then it becomes useless as a warning. Perhaps this example is not similar enough to the case of drdunlap and mr_hans_moleman to be analogous, but for the sake of brevity, I'll leave it to you to fill in the gaps. Although, I should add, that depends on the charity of your interpretation.

Not to be gratuitous, but let me point to another example. You say:

uisukii Wrote:The point is that they both put in the hard work and achieved something which many take years longer to do.

Aren't you assuming that they actually achieved the things they claimed to have done? What supports this assumption? Sure, you can say that Tzadeck is being uncharitable by dismissing their claims, but that seems to once more be another uncharitable assumption of what Tzadeck is trying to do. Isn't it possible that Tzadeck, in fact, wants to believe their claims, but is examining them so we may see if the claims withstand critique?

Finally, when Tzadeck gives up trying to respond to your uncharitable replies, you make the following snipe:

uisukii Wrote:Avoiding something doesn't invalidate it.

You suggest that Tzadeck is avoiding the debate. I think Tzadeck is avoiding you.

To be sure, your criticisms of Tzadeck in the post I'm replying to are correct, but only if you view them in a narrow context. If you look to the wider background, namely, the kind of evidence needed to support extraordinary claims, then Tzadeck's skepticism seems wholly justified. Yes, Tzadeck fails to articulate what the evidential standards are and why they justify skepticism, but do you honestly expect that degree of thoroughness from anyone, even yourself? It's quite reasonable to leave that extra work to the charitable reader, otherwise making any substantial claim will require an accompanying treatise on the epistemic justifications for the claim.

The conclusion to draw here is that not all assumptions need to be pointed out when no support for them is offered. There is a difference between warranted and unwarranted assumptions. Of course, there is the issue of how to determine which assumptions are warranted or unwarranted (which I obviously cannot address in a forum post), and I realize there may be situations where the evidential standards, assumed or otherwise, are unclear or problematic. However, instead of openly mocking a poster for making an assumption without offering any support, I suggest asking some pointed questions aimed at drawing out helpful details from the poster.

Now, I hope you don't reply to my post with clever criticisms about the errors in my reasoning because then my purpose in writing this will be lost. Rather, I hope you reply, not directly to my post, but with a new approach in your future posts. Instead of continuing to pedantically and uncharitably criticize others' posts, I hope you try to interpret them in a way that is helpful to the discussion. In this case, what is helpful to the discussion are posts that show how it is possible to pass the N1 exam in two years and that focus on verifying and elaborating on exactly how it is possible to manage such a feat. What is not helpful are posts only bickering about how another poster makes unwarranted assumptions. If you show how certain unwarranted assumptions lead to problems or inaccurate claims, then that would be an excellent contribution. Unfortunately, I see nothing of the sort. All I see is "Tzadeck's argument has gaps and unwarranted assumptions! Your move, Tzadeck." What I'd like to see is "The gaps and unwarranted assumptions in Tzadeck's argument are problematic because, if assumed, we overlook good evidence for believing that, in fact, we have good reason to believe mr_hans_moleman's claims." Now that would be a great post.

Edit: I considered sending this as a PM, but then realized it'd be better to post here since it could inspire others to contribute more constructively to discussions.

^harshly criticizing an argument is not the same as harshly criticizing a person. It's not about "charity", it's simply about simply not propagating an environment wherein someone is labeled a liar, repeatedly, as though it were perfectly acceptable.

The questions have been repeatedly asked, and due to the nature of forums, will remain.

Quote:If you show how certain unwarranted assumptions lead to problems or inaccurate claims, then that would be an excellent contribution.

This is exactly what happened. Initially it was a blunt labeling of a user as lying, then it was "oh, I misread the post", then after the person expanded upon their progress and details involved, it was still "well you're still a liar", more or less.

The whole point is that it was overly personalized to begin with. How this isn't plain as day is beyond me. I've yet to mock anyone, whereas someone has been repeatedly called a liar and such forth. There is a difference between criticism someone's attitude and argument, and criticizing them personally.



You can see a simple game of "ah, your move", in the same way I see this as painstakingly missing the point and focusing on a personal argument which has no place- something I've tried to expand upon however the response as been repeatedly that Tzadeck, in this instance has no interest in such discussion.

Quote:My position isn't really what you think it is, and I'm not interested in clarifying.

While expecting mr_hans_moleman do present anything further (what do you want by this point? A certificate of the N1 grade photographed and posted online?) is perfectly valid, apparently, while throwing around terms like "liar" and "obvious lie".

It's hard to inspire others to contribute when we have a collective culture of dismissing and labeling as the default. But if that is the way then so be it. I'll just stick to creating spreadsheets and anki decks of popular user resources for people to use in their studies, lol.

post-script: I apologize if any of that came across as bitter or personally offensive. Sometimes people are unable to distinguish between criticizing what someone has said and criticizing them personally, something I'm not all that great at empathizing with.

uisukii May I just remind you of how this all started?

Tzadeck Wrote:

mr_hans_moleman Wrote:I studied Japanese intensively for about a year and "something" months, took the N1 test in Japan and finished the test in half the time without ever having to study previous JLPT tests/grammar books etc. I remember sleeping most of the time during the test.

Obvious lie is obvious.

The initial claim sounded like something I'd hear from the 12 year olds on the mmo's I used to play making shit up to try to look cool. It triggered tzardeck's skepticism, and I'd say rightfully so. It triggered mine too.


Then you jump in with a signature novella-length post because a crime of logic has occured, and the perpetrators must be stopped at all costs.

You get all indignant because tzardeck doesn't want to make this into a huge debacle, but it's already pretty much an insult to everyone's intelligence to point out how tzadeck's skepticism is an assumption. It's obvious that the statement is a guess, based on what he's seen in the past, and how people tend to act.

Then what happens later? It turns out moleman stretched the truth a little. He admits his time is closer to 2+ years. It basically WAS a lie by omission. Tzadeck comments how moleman played it down too much, and then goes on to say how hes never seen an english speaker get N1 in less than 2 years. This statement holds true. He is not denying the accomplishments of moleman one bit. Yet you go on with the martyr act, pretending like some great crime has been committed, and how everyone is just turning a blind eye to it. Can't you see how petty all of this is?

You're not getting any closer to being 'the saviour of the forums' or whatever you think by trying to drag people into these long-winded debates with you. All it is is incredibly ingratiating to you, and wasteful to everyone else's time. I guess I can appreciate the sentiment of trying to stimulate discussion, but right now you're more like a child with way too much energy and not enough constructive ways to expend it.

dtcamero Wrote:

zgarbas Wrote:Also, most people don't have anything interesting to say; most conversations are small talk and are ultimately meaningless, if not boring. more often than not you're likely to talk to someone infuriating than fascinating. There's a reason why the word "average" exists.

I like this answer... that these people would probably have been boring anyway, even without ignoring everything to study.

And as for you, you just remind me of those kids at my high school who would wear the 'you laugh because I'm different, I laugh because you're all the same' t-shirts....

Tzadeck Wrote:

ktcgx Wrote:There is a difference between studying hard, and studying smart though...

Well, he had most of the tools that people here talk about a lot, and he's also good at forcing himself to use Japanese both for consuming media and when socializing.

Yes, you may have all the books and tools in the world, and still not be studying smart. I realise I'm not very good at explaining what I mean by this concept. Perhaps I would say it's similar to what that guy said on the polyglots and polynots video. How you can drill 12k words on anki, and that won't make you fluent. People who become fluent have good short term memories, and are constantly analysing the language they hear for the meaning of new words etc.
I dunno, I feel like that falls short too, but hopefully you know what I'm getting at.

Whew. Lot of arguing about fluffy stuff going on here. Seriously, whew.

But can I ask a question? Because all I really want to know--and I think a lot of other people do too--is how did you get good so fast?

Mr. Dr. Dunlap, I'm mostly talking to you.

Because a lot of us have studied Japanese hard, hours a day, for years, without the same results. So you did something differently that we did (or I did, at least), and I'd love to know what that is. Then we can all do it too and make the secret sauce.

You seem like a nice, honest guy, Mr. Dr. Dunlap, and I've heard your recording. You sound quite good, and I believe your level. But I think it's also important to verify basic facts, particularly in relation to time spent. There's too much of this, "I took two years of Japanese at university, but it doesn't count," or "p.s. I'm Chinese, but that doesn't matter." (Khatz plays that game.) So I'm not trying to be a dick about this, but I'd really like people to include all the pertinent facts. That would help to determine if success was due to background, time spent, or methods.

I'll tell you that I started from absolute Zero in 2003, the first time I came to Japan. Sure, I knew words like "sushi" and "samurai," but aside from terms that regularly occur in English, I had no knowledge of Japanese. None. Zip. Nada. I couldn't count to 1, and it would be months before I discovered that there was this thing called "hiragana." It didn't even occur to me to study kanji for about a year and a half. Who needs all those crazy symbols? So I could revise the timeline and say that when I "started" was when I began studying kanji, but that wouldn't be true. So when I started was when I started.

I think there is some real wisdom to be gained here, and if we could cut through the noise, we could all benefit. So how'd you do it? Just the facts, please.

Haych Wrote:Then you jump in with a signature novella-length post because a crime of logic has occurred...

this was quite funny.

Haych Wrote:And as for you, you just remind me of those kids at my high school who would wear the 'you laugh because I'm different, I laugh because you're all the same' t-shirts....

omg I so want that shirt..

Haych Wrote:Then you jump in with a signature novella-length post because a crime of logic has occured, and the perpetrators must be stopped at all costs.

Yes, and the worst part is its so boring. So boring...

Getting back to Japanese a bit (which even then is still O/T really), and as Benny is demonstrating quite well - it really comes down to study hours and not not number of months / years. If you study more you progress faster, as obvious as it sounds.

I believe the people who said they passed so quickly, though some of them then mention other factors they don't themselves think were important:

1) AKITOD passed quickly, didn't think it mattered much that he is actually half Japanese and was later able to always speak to his mother in Japanese.
2) Hans Moleman mentioned he actually started in 2006, but "didn't really start" until much later when he then passed so quickly.

Both have the same thing in common that they actually both started much earlier, and will have both been getting more exposure for longer making it much easier later. I'm sure AKITOD will have been exposed to at least some Japanese perhaps over his entire life - meeting grandparents etc.

DrDunlap did AJATT which basically means giving your life to Japanese and doing nothing else (from the sound of it) - I've no doubt at all you can pass N1 in 2 years if you put in that kind of work. Most people however simply cannot, or choose not to.

I started studying Japanese some 6-7 years ago now, and am around N1, but should probably be better than I am. But even now if I'm studying what I consider really hard, I probably only do 2-3 hours a day at the most. I'm always busy with a lot of things, and don't really have the inclination to switch the rest of my environment into Japanese, so of course I'm going to be slower to improve - and I'm okay with that.

When I started studying Chinese I did 3 hours of classes every day and then my own study afterwards, and I quickly found a girlfriend who doesn't speak any English (not because I planned it that way, just how it worked out).

In that environment I've no doubt at all I could reach a very high level in 1-2 years. Instead its been a year and I'm "only" very conversational, because the last 6 months or so I was doing other things and relaxed my Chinese study. I've just restarted studying semi intensively recently and seeing improvements really fast again.

So if you spend 6 hours a day studying, you can probably pass N1 in 2 years. 3 hours a day studying will probably get you there in 4. The average learner (of which I'm one) probably studied 1-2 hours a day on average, and *tada* will probably take that common 7-8 years to get good and pass N1.

I think thats pretty simple and accurate for Japanese, and even our polygot friend Benny won'y be able to move any faster.

NightSky Wrote:1) AKITOD passed quickly, didn't think it mattered much that he is actually half Japanese and was later able to always speak to his mother in Japanese.

Both have the same thing in common that they actually both started much earlier, and will have both been getting more exposure for longer making it much easier later. I'm sure AKITOD will have been exposed to at least some Japanese perhaps over his entire life - meeting grandparents etc.

Being half-japanese in itself genetically doesn't change my likelihood to pick up a language i'm pretty sure.

I wasn't exposed to any japanese teaching. They didn't teach me japanese. The only japanese I knew for a long time was 'happy birthday' when we made the once in a year phone call to my grandmother who lived in Japan (I'm in Australia).

Though I will say it's likely there may have been some influence somewhere, but keep in mind we lived in an English-speaking household.

I didn't meet my grandparents except for one week when I was 8.......believe me I couldn't understand/say shit to them. Didn't even try.

It helps that I was able to talk to mum in Japanese after about a year, for conversational reasons (eg endurance, switching language etc). But not in matters assessable by JLPT.

I probably average 2 hours study/day anki, plus another 3-4 hours study a day passively (whether it's podcasts or TV/books etc).

It seems like I've stumbled upon a way to outsource my arguing. Muahaha, success!

[s0apgun]

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:So how'd you do it? Just the facts, please.

Fact: He learned Japanese by enjoying it.

SCIENTISTS HATE HIM. CLICK HERE TO LEARN HIS SECRETS.

[Zgarbas]

So, since this thread basically has been one crazy, crazy place since day 1 I might as well derail it to myself (I love doing that).

Speaking of moleman lying by omission. Lately, what with the new town and everything people keep asking me how long it took me to get to my level. This is actually semi-relevant as I think people judge you differently. And by "people" I mean "people who can recommend me for employment", the kind I want to impress

Frankly, I keep being tempted to say 2 years, as really, before September 2011 my Japanese studying was a joke. My "3 years prior" was made of "learn some hiragana, abandon Japanese for 1 year, learn kana again since you didn't do it right the first time, drop after reaching a not-even-N5 level, study for a month to get to N5, drop for a year). Of course, my 3-year major in Japanese begs to differ on that, but still Seems like some people get pretty angry when you don't give out enough intricate detail about your learning journey to prove that you're no genius or anything, but frankly I worked hard and want to brag about it . Should I just go with 3?

In hindsight, the things that I have said may have sounded boastful.

All I really wanted to say is that I am just your average Joe. Somebody with better concentration and a game plan can pass N1 in less than 2 years. I said that I slept through most of the test. I was trying to imply that through nothing but immersion, an 平凡人 like myself can pass with ease a test that seems to instill so much fear in people. There are much more bigger challenges ahead. For example, learning to not only speak the language but also learning to communicate effectively. I'm sure that if people were blessed with a lot of free time like I was then we would be seeing more people passing the test.

My job has me regularly interacting with Japanese people. I get people complaining to me in Japanese and the JLPT test won't prepare you for those things. Pass it and get over it.

I passed it 3 years ago and it's not only until recently that I could tell myself that I am fluent in Japanese.

s0apgun Wrote:

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:So how'd you do it? Just the facts, please.

Fact: He learned Japanese by enjoying it.

SCIENTISTS HATE HIM. CLICK HERE TO LEARN HIS SECRETS.

Well, you say "enjoy," but it doesn't sound like eating ice cream. In the thread, he says "According to my Anki, I have ~12,000 words in all of my decks combined." Now maybe that's fun too, but it also sounds like a heck of a lot of hard work.

There seems to be 4 conclusions:

1) He is at worst, lying about the time and effort he put in to pass N1 (and him sleeping through most of it) or at best lying by omission or downplaying his time and effort.

2) There was no intention to lie/white lies, but he is far too humble/modest for his own good. EG.

"I'm just an average guy" debatable

"through nothing but immersion, an 平凡人 like myself can pass with ease a test that seems to instill so much fear in people." according to my thread: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=11232

100% immersion is an extremely unwise idea.

" I'm sure that if people were blessed with a lot of free time like I was then we would be seeing more people passing the test." this contradicts the first statement. The average person does not have the free time necessary to pass N1 in one year. he had lots of free time ergo, he is not average.

I'm sure I can find more questionable statements in other threads but I don't care enough to.

3) He is lying about passing N1 period. It never happened. He's taking all of you on a ride and laughing all the way.

4) He is telling the truth, he passed N1 in one year and slept through most of it.

Which is it?

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:

s0apgun Wrote:

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:So how'd you do it? Just the facts, please.

Fact: He learned Japanese by enjoying it.

SCIENTISTS HATE HIM. CLICK HERE TO LEARN HIS SECRETS.

Well, you say "enjoy," but it doesn't sound like eating ice cream. In the thread, he says "According to my Anki, I have ~12,000 words in all of my decks combined." Now maybe that's fun too, but it also sounds like a heck of a lot of hard work.

I'm currently on a train and I hate typing on my phone but I will reply decently when I get time tonight or tomorrow.
Check my wording. I didn't exactly do AJATT. I'll explain more later.
For now! Mastering another language in ANY period of time requires a lot of hard work. I did enjoy it, though. Still do.

More to come.. sometime soonish. For now it's gallivant in Osaka and pick up a stronger accent time!

qwertyytrewq Wrote:3) He is lying about passing N1 period. It never happened. He's taking all of you on a ride and laughing all the way.

Which is it?

An upload of the test result card with the scores (name blacked out) would go a long way toward putting this to rest. A really long way.

Well, I'm off to eat fifty eggs now. Talk to you later.

If you guys got as worked up about Japanese daily as you are about this topic then you'd probably pass the JLPT1 in a week.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:"through nothing but immersion, an 平凡人 like myself can pass with ease a test that seems to instill so much fear in people." according to my thread: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=11232

100% immersion is an extremely unwise idea.

A bit irrelevant, but are you going to be using this thread as if it was a larger scale scientific poll as disproof from now on? The thread got aligned opinions from about 5-6 people, I wouldn't use that as a basis to prove a method to be extremely unwise.

dizmox Wrote:If you guys got as worked up about Japanese daily as you are about this topic then you'd probably pass the JLPT1 in a week.

+1

Sorry if the novellas offended anyone. I guess all that time reading is boring. Hopefully the people who are using any of the DoJG work that I've typed up/still working on and allowing people to use it as they will, isn't also mind numbingly boring, considering the hundreds of hours involved.

Not really sure why anyone is worked up over drdunlap's success. Out of all of the people here, he is one of the few who has at least gone out of his way to explain his study methods and what worked personally, and is contributing to the current audio thread- and has uploaded youtube clips of himself so people can judge his Japanese.

But hey, it's easy to judge and dismiss others from the armchair. Why aren't the already fluent and/or members who have been using Japanese already for years spending time posting in and propagating "日本語 only" threads? Why aren't they starting and continuing audio discussing with other members? Call it harsh but couldn't someone else suggest that while these apparent liars and lying by omission posters are actually willing to show a bit of output to back up their claims, whereas those who are already competent in the language have nothing to show for it?

You'd think we would have a thriving "Japanese only" sub-section somewhere for well and truly seasoned Japanese learners could output and where others could test the waters with their guidance. Something like Lang8 but less scrupulous.

Then again, it's hard to output and share Japanese when most of the time is spent being critical of others and arguing about how to learn the language, as opposed to using it.

Do people write novellas under their own name or is my username fine enough? lol.