The "HITLER AND STALIN HAVE WON" people (mostly you, but there were a couple of others) had their say on several other threads, and the admins decided to implement the system anyway, so I don't think it's going to be eliminated.

Stansfield123 Wrote:In fact if this system was in place when I started studying, I would've never used your site.

+1

[ファブリス]

@Stansfield

It seems to me like you are overracting due to a very strong attachment to how the content should be administered, and in particular (judging from your earlier posts in other related topic), you really don't like the idea of "content policing".

Quote:You are allowing 90% of users to be at the mercy of an "offended" 10%. Why would you hide stories that have more fans than haters?

The stories are actually *collapsed* and can be viewed with a simple click.

No one is making a statement about what exactly should be considered offensive, or what content should be moderated in the shared stories. It's obviously not possible to satisfy everyone. Therefore the hiding of stories is based on simple community votes.

The reports are obviously from a community that spans many cultures, nations and beliefs and priorities in life. It's not my job to chose what should or should not be considered acceptable. Because EITHER WAY I WILL BE SEEN AS MAKING A STATEMENT (ie. "policing"). EITHER BY LETTING OFFENSIVE STORIES, OR HIDING THEM. That's not me yelling, that's emphasis by the way.

There really is not reason for this to make you feel so uncomfortable. It is your choice to see this as some kind of policing. People have the right to like or dislike a story. It's not feasible for me to create a rating system that can accurately separate offensive stories from badly written one (non effective mnemonics and so on).

The examples you gave are quite obviously downvoted (which is likely what most users use the report button for) because they involve religion and politics, which are well known to cause debate. And even if people can handle debate, they may simply not want to have all these associations in their mind, when they recall characters. In my opinion, it is actually fair that the stories you listed are voted down. I hardly downvote /report any stories but it is fair for users to decide they don't like religious or politically stories.

Stansfield Wrote:This is the top story under this Kanji, with 260 likes. It's hidden because of 115 dislikes:

Mr. T gave a girl some change to lean over and give him head. !!!

Forgive my non-native english, it appears to me to be a crude story about prostitution (giving a blowjob in exchange for money)? I have no idea what you mean with the oscar winning screenplay. So I can see why other users would have reported it. It simply is a crude story that would never be published in Heisig's book.

Furthermore these 115 reports didn't come out of nowhere. If nearly one in two people don't like this crude story, then the auto-hide feature is doing its job.

TLDR

From the examples you gave I don't really see a problem. I think the problem here, is that you are really averse to the idea of other people "controlling" the content (I still don't know what a "pc police" is to be honest).

1. Stories are not truly hidden, they are *collapsed* and can be seen with a single click.

2. If the auto-collapsing of reported stories did hide many actually good mnemonics written with a bit of taste as Heisig did in his book, then we would have a real problem to solve, and the algorithm needs improvement.

I will not continue to argue with you because I think we are going to be beating a dead horse.

I'm sorry you are so unhappy about such a simple change. I think you are reading far too much into it.

Now if I get a lot more feedback along the same lines from various people, I will definitely give it serious consideration.

Stansfield123 you sure are one angry dude; why not chill and study Japanese instead of writing angry posts over inconsequential things. *shrug* Don't hurt me please.

awaken Wrote:

Stansfield123 Wrote:In fact if this system was in place when I started studying, I would've never used your site.

+1

-10

ファブリス Wrote:@Stansfield
Now if I get a lot more feedback along the same lines from various people, I will definitely give it serious consideration.

You won't. Frankly it's a pretty good and long overdue change. There's no reason to have a report button if it doesn't work.

ryuudou Wrote:There's no reason to have a report button if it doesn't work.

Would be about the same as any other rating button; it's just a counter, what happens based on its value is entirely up to the way it's interpreted.

To be clear, I don't mind them being 'hidden' (frankly, I don't even use the SRS here), if there's an easy way to see them (which there is).

People feel strongly about this feature on both sides so how about let people disable it.

In general I think my country (America) would be a better place if people were more thick-skinned when it came to offensive content and ideas. I don't really mind here so much though since it's just a site for learning kanji and it has an international audience. I always enjoy a good ridiculous Standsfield rant though.

sholum Wrote:To be clear, I don't mind them being 'hidden' (frankly, I don't even use the SRS here), if there's an easy way to see them (which there is).

That there is. I doubt any functional and mature adult would mind or even complain about having to click "show story" for the highly reported ones.

Tzadeck Wrote:In general I think my country (America) would be a better place if people were more thick-skinned when it came to offensive content and ideas.

As someone who was called a nigger at both of the high schools I went to (and I was born in the 90s) I'm inclined to disagree. I mean in my country (America) you're allowed to be a piece of shit as you please, but don't expect others to not show you the door.

ryuudou Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:In general I think my country (America) would be a better place if people were more thick-skinned when it came to offensive content and ideas.

As someone who was called a nigger at both of the high schools I went to (and I was born in the 90s) I'm inclined to disagree. I mean in my country (America) you're allowed to be a piece of shit as you please, but don't expect others to not show you the door.

That's not at all what I'm talking about.

[RawToast]

hojuren Wrote:People feel strongly about this feature on both sides so how about let people disable it.

This could be easy to implement; depending on how the data is saved. If 'like' and 'dislike' are stored in separate fields, then it should be possible to sort only by 'likes'.

From some of Stansfield's examples it seems like certain people are down-voting not because they are offended, but because they disagree with the story politically.

I wonder how easy it would be to implement a swear filter for the stories? Hide all stories with that contain any of a certain list of words (perhaps user configurable). Then people can hide all stories with Obama, *****, or whatever content they object to.

> Furthermore these 115 reports didn't come out of nowhere. If nearly one in two people don't like this crude story, then the auto-hide feature is doing its job.

With 260 likes that's one in 3.26 people, so the feature is supporting minority rule.

[ファブリス]

A swear filter is not a bad idea. The study pages need a way to encourage the sharing or better quality stories, and a simple error when submitting can act as a reminder to share something a little more mindful. What are other's thoughts on that ?

Frankly, a lot of the stories being hidden right now are from immature people. I've been 15-25 something so I am not blaming, but a little self moderation would help with the quality of the available stories.

So the fact that we are discussing so much about immature story really is disappointing. The timing with Charlie Hebdo probably doesn't help. People link this to freedom of expression, or censoring, or "policing" of offending material.

Can we be a little honest here? Mr T getting a blowjob isn't offending, it's immature.

So is this what it comes down to? We're all getting up in arms for the freedom to post immature and low brow content?

And no, user-configurable hide story threshold or user-configurable swear words is bad design. It's putting the burden on the user who really shouldn't need to bother with these options.

I am really disappointed with the reception of this update. I am trying to improve the site and all I get is complaints, and I hear zero support from those who wanted this in the first place.

Tell you what, I have a brilliant idea: MODERATION. Is this what you want? Not only can I keep the hiding of immature and imbecile stories, but I can also add an admin, and I can chose people I trust here who have shown restraint and mature thinking, to flag all low quality stories to oblivion. This is what you want? MORE moderation of the stories?

ファブリス Wrote:So is this what it comes down to? We're all getting up in arms for the freedom to post immature and low brow content?

Well, to be fair, a really large proportion of people who want to learn Japanese are in the 15-25 range, simply because of the number of learners who became interested through pop-culture. So immature stories might be helpful to those people.

I appreciate your efforts to make the site better by the way. Even if I'm not 100% behind every change I also realize that I could easily be wrong. Especially since you've designed at least one great website that I know of (this one), and I've designed precisely zero.

[ファブリス]

Tzadeck Wrote:Well, to be fair, a really large proportion of people who want to learn Japanese are in the 15-25 range, simply because of the number of learners who became interested through pop-culture. So immature stories might be helpful to those people.

That is a fair argument I suppose. But then in this line of thinking, the community-driven moderation is exactly what they want. The 15-25 something are free to upvote the stories they want to use. Meanwhile the more mature users are also free to report/downvote them.

So the only issue here is to finetune the auto-collapsing of stories. You wouldn't want me to sort the stories also on the votes/report ratio because that will move these +200/-100 stories further down the list. At this time, the "top voted" stories keep their spot at the top of the list, and all the user need to do is click "unhide".

ファブリス Wrote:@Stansfield

It seems to me like you are overracting due to a very strong attachment to how the content should be administered, and in particular (judging from your earlier posts in other related topic), you really don't like the idea of "content policing".

I posted my honest opinion of the changes you made. I don't like it, it makes no sense to me. Calling my opinion an over-reaction is not a logical retort, it's a logical fallacy.

ファブリス Wrote:I have no idea what you mean with the oscar winning screenplay.

You've never seen Pulp Fiction? You should.

ファブリス Wrote:No one is making a statement about what exactly should be considered offensive, or what content should be moderated in the shared stories. It's obviously not possible to satisfy everyone. Therefore the hiding of stories is based on simple community votes.

I don't understand the purpose of that "therefor". It's not possible to satisfy everyone, therefor let's just satisfy the 10% of people who are the most easily offended (or just like to tell everyone else what to think and how to speak)? Sorry, but that doesn't quite follow.

Why are the feelings of these 10% so important that you are willing to inconvenience the other 90% of your users and contributors, to satisfy them?

We've discussed this issue in the other thread. I'm not opposed to having a system like this. I even suggested a system that would cause highly unpopular stories (stories that are reported by the overwhelming majority of users) to be hidden or sent to the bottom. I think my suggestion involved sending them to the bottom, but I like the idea of collapsing them like this instead, better. So thumbs up on that.

But huge, huge thumbs down on deciding to give 10% of users the power to hide stories. It should take at least 66% (meaning twice as many down votes than likes), to hide a story. Anything less than that will just allows busybodies to get perfectly good stories hidden, and piss the rest of us off in the process. Being inconvenienced because other people are prudes or easily offended is annoying.

ryuudou Wrote:-10

Why ten? Is that a new form of personality disorder? What are the other 9 "you" called?

ファブリス Wrote:(I still don't know what a "pc police" is to be honest).

That's definitely not my fault. PC is a commonly used abbreviation for political correctness, which has a wikipedia entry, not to mention a 100 year history that starts out in Stalinist Russia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness

[ファブリス]

I don't know where you got the 10% and 90% from. Actual votes and reports vary wildly from one story to another.

Further in your previous reply by the end, you showed yo udidn't actually follow the updates, since the site only used report > 10 for one day, and the next day I added Katsuo's suggestion to also look at votes to report ratio.

Have a good day.

ファブリス Wrote:I don't know where you got the 10% and 90% from. Actual votes and reports vary wildly from one story to another.

Further in your previous reply by the end, you showed yo udidn't actually follow the updates, since the site only used report > 10 for one day, and the next day I added Katsuo's suggestion to also look at votes to report ratio.

Have a good day.

Come on Fabrice, you're a programmer. It's just math. Before the update, it was 10 people with the power to hide a story. Now it's 10%. For it to be a majority, the ratio of likes and dislikes should be >1, not >10. Now it's still (likes/dislikes>10). That's why stories with several times more likes than dislikes are still getting hidden.

Let me put it more simply: The whole reason for this scheme is that some people complained that there are racist and grossly offensive stories on the site. That's the problem you're trying to address, correct?

But there are maybe a couple of dozen such stories on the whole site. I'd challenge anyone to find more than 10 of them in 30 minutes. And the solution to those few dozen offensive stories is to hide over 800 stories, most of them harmless or at worst containing the word fu*k? How is that a solution? Doing nothing is better than doing that.

Flamerokz Wrote:Stansfield123 you sure are one angry dude; why not chill and study Japanese instead of writing angry posts over inconsequential things. *shrug* Don't hurt me please.

Don't worry, words don't actually hurt. That's just an excuse people throw out when they want to silence someone.

And you make a good point, this is turning into a waste of my time. I should return the favor: your time would be better spent learning about ways to avoid unintentional irony, instead of telling others when to study Japanese.

Stansfield123 Wrote:Don't worry, words don't actually hurt. That's just an excuse people throw out when they want to silence someone.

And you make a good point, this is turning into a waste of my time. I should return the favor: your time would be better spent learning about ways to avoid unintentional irony, instead of telling others when to study Japanese.

I can't hear you over the delicious salt pouring from your pores, mmmm.

ファブリス Wrote:Frankly, a lot of the stories being hidden right now are from immature people. I've been 15-25 something so I am not blaming, but a little self moderation would help with the quality of the available stories.

So the fact that we are discussing so much about immature story really is disappointing. The timing with Charlie Hebdo probably doesn't help. People link this to freedom of expression, or censoring, or "policing" of offending material.

Can we be a little honest here? Mr T getting a blowjob isn't offending, it's immature.

So is this what it comes down to? We're all getting up in arms for the freedom to post immature and low brow content?

And no, user-configurable hide story threshold or user-configurable swear words is bad design. It's putting the burden on the user who really shouldn't need to bother with these options.

I am really disappointed with the reception of this update. I am trying to improve the site and all I get is complaints, and I hear zero support from those who wanted this in the first place.

Tell you what, I have a brilliant idea: MODERATION. Is this what you want? Not only can I keep the hiding of immature and imbecile stories, but I can also add an admin, and I can chose people I trust here who have shown restraint and mature thinking, to flag all low quality stories to oblivion. This is what you want? MORE moderation of the stories?

Agreed. Frankly it's just a few vocal complainers. The angle almost reminds me of neo-nazis on the internet who play libertarian for "free speech" (not the content, but the people here claiming they're oppressed because they have to click one extra time to copy and paste a story about someone's dick now).

I'll reiterate what I said earlier: there is no functional adult who contributes to society and would mind or even complain about having to click "show story" for the highly reported ones. It's a good change that's been long overdue.

ryuudou Wrote:I'll reiterate what I said earlier: there is no functional adult who contributes to society and would mind or even complain about having to click "show story" for the highly reported ones. It's a good change that's been long overdue.

Yes: the only people who could possibly disagree with you are either children or could not possibly be contributing to society. I say that about all my opinions.

Tzadeck Wrote:I always enjoy a good ridiculous Standsfield rant though.

This. I think Flamerokz and everyone else I respect here see what's up, too. Don't waste your time, Fabrice. This new feature is a nice addition to the site and will make more users feel welcome here, while still allowing easy access to flagged stories with one click. I assume more people aren't coming out to give their support because they'd rather do something productive than get dragged into a useless debate with someone whose history here consists of useless debates. In any event, you have my support, and I encourage everyone else to show theirs too, whether in this thread or through the donate button on the front page.

why are you so cruel, guys? he just needs a hug.

and maybe some light petting.

ファブリス:
I think the way it is now is fine. But if you are bothered by the complaints of the few maybe something to look into might be to have a setting in the account settings for "show hidden stories." Then when someone logs in, read the setting from the account and store that in the session cookie. If I understand cookies right, then when the person goes to any kanji you can just pull the current setting from the cookie and decide whether to unhide automatically or not.