It seems that the stroke direction (left-to-right or right-to-left) for the first stroke of the 天 radical follows some rules that I don't yet grasp. Using the default font on my computer (which may admittedly be wrong), it appears for example that the following kanji have a left-to-right first stroke (completely horizontal) for the 天 radical: 天,蚕,矢,奏. However in these kanji the 天 primitive has a right-to-left first stroke (slightly lower and pointed left-hand-side): 橋,笑,添.

Is there a rule at work here? It almost seems like if 天 is at the top then its left-to-right, otherwise right-to-left, but 奏 looks like an exception.

im not 100% sure, but i think its becouse if its a radical it get "compressed" and get slanted, and the slanted line need to be from right to left, i believe this also applies to other radicals with the slanted line at top

Although you can look at 矢 as containing 天 in order to help you create a story, I don't think the characters are related at all.

As for the others, I think that if 天 is the only element or if it encloses other primitives then the first stroke is straight and it goes from left to right. In all other cases, the first stroke is slanted and goes from right to left (夭).

You're right though, 奏 can be viewed as an exception. Originally 夭 was used, which means that the rule in the previous paragraph holds. However, especially in recent times, you can write 天 instead. Notice that whichever you choose, the second stroke of this primitive in 奏 is longer than the first. This is not true in all other cases when writing 天.

I got most of this info from here:

http://oshiete1.goo.ne.jp/qa2935786.html

Check it out.

In general, lots of the primitives aren't traditional radicals and don't behave sensibly. He'll sometimes call into use a primitive if the bunch of strokes vaguely resemble it, even if the stroke types and order are completely different. You need a nice brush-stroke font and a stroke order diagram that also shows direction to work out what's really going on sometimes. The book isn't enough by itself if you are a beginner and want to be able to write the kanji using the correct strokes.

In this case, heaven isn't a traditional radical, and the ones with the sloped first stroke are based on a Chinese character not used in Japanese, so you might want to invent another primitive for that or otherwise add something to your stories...

cangy Wrote:In this case, heaven isn't a traditional radical, and the ones with the sloped first stroke are based on a Chinese character not used in Japanese, so you might want to invent another primitive for that or otherwise add something to your stories...

夭 and 天 are different characters but you can use the same image in your stories as long as you've got a rule that dictates which one to use in which situation. As long as you're happy to write 奏 in it's old fashioned form, the rule stated earlier works. Personally, I think that's more efficient than creating another primitive image or putting more detail in your stories.

wrightak Wrote:As for the others, I think that if 天 is the only element or if it encloses other primitives then the first stroke is straight and it goes from left to right. In all other cases, the first stroke is slanted and goes from right to left (夭).

As long as you're happy to write 奏 in it's old fashioned form, the rule stated earlier works.

ignoring 矢 and 奏, these are straight: 天蚕, and these are sloped: 橋嬌添笑矯, so I don't think I understand your rule. but as there's only 2 kanji in rtk1 covered by the rule, you might as well say they are all sloped except for 天蚕 (and 奏)...

either way, I'm interested in rules like this, so if you have any others, please share them

thanks

cangy Wrote:ignoring 矢 and 奏, these are straight: 天蚕, and these are sloped: 橋嬌添笑矯, so I don't think I understand your rule.

You're right, I've made a mistake.

Certain primitives are classified as, what I believe to be called, enclosure elements. Road, stretch, hood, sickness etc. are all examples. They enclose something else within them. The SKIP lookup system, that Jack Halpern created, hinges on being able to identify enclosure elements. If you're not familiar with SKIP then check it out here:

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/SKIP.html

What my rule said was that if 天 is acting as an enclosure element (蚕) then you write 天. In all other cases (橋嬌添笑矯), you write 夭. Or alternatively, if the SKIP code begins with a 3, then you write 天, otherwise you write 夭. I thought that the SKIP code for 蚕 would begin with a 3, but it doesn't. So my rule doesn't work.

Perhaps the rule should be changed to the following:

If the SKIP classification for the kanji in question begins with a 2 and the heaven primitive is at the top, then write 天. In all other cases, write 夭.