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Starting RTK1, need help with Heisig method and Anki

#1
So I have recently started RTK vol. 1, 4th ed. and am completely new with this approach to learning kanji and using Anki to study kanji with it. I am not new to learning Japanese or kanji, however, I consider myself a beginner.

First, a question about the English keywords used in RTK: are most of these keywords the same as the true meaning of the kanji? And if the English keyword is different from the true meaning of a kanji, how do I know this? (And will this result in confusion between English keywords and actual meaning?) For example, I know that the keyword and meaning for 日 are the same--"day." But what about the kanji 旦 which has the keyword "nightbreak," but actually means "daybreak?" It's true that Heisig gave the true meaning in the description for the kanji, but I don't know if he always does this. This is just something that I'm worried will hinder my progress in the long run.

But onto studying RTK with Anki, where should I start? Is there any recommended deck I should import (for studying the given stories in the beginning, and then further) or should I create my own? In the case of the latter, what fields should be included in the cards?

A bigger question, however, is how do you even study RTK with Anki? Frontside keyword, backside kanji--and try to write the kanji by recalling a story? And do you study stories differently? (If so, how do I go about that?)

These are a lot of questions, I know. I'm just so confused and I need some help so I can give this method a try.
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#2
What I did with RTK was save my stories on this website. I did not put them on the flashcards. What RTK and anki will do, is wean you off the stories; the SRS will slowly smooths out the rough edges. By having the story on the card it will refresh your mind of the story every time you review it. It's somewhere in RTK but Heisig talks about eventually the stories will fade but the kanji will not. Simply put you will see OLD and just be oh I know that's 古, no story needed.


There are a couple decks for learning RTK, IMO it really does not matter which deck you use. If your worried about the kanji having a different meaning in RTK than in real japanese you can always use rikaichan on the kanji koohi's study page and see the real meaning of the kanji. Some people on the kanji koohii study page will be adamant about changing the keyword for some kanji that are very misleading.

After reviewing and learning about ~10 kanji I would test my knowledge with anki. In reviews, say a card popped up and I could not remember it well, I would come to the study page on kanji koohii and see what story I had saved. I could review the story or tweak it depending on what I think about the story.

Keyword on front and kanji on back. I would recommend actually writing out the kanji, it's tedious but it really ingrains them in your head. You can use stories to recall the kanji, that's perfectly acceptable.
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#3
In my opinion, studying kanji is more conveniently done with Reviewing the Kanji (RevTK) than with Anki, since the you have the stories of other users at hand, it has a nice interface, and I somewhat prefer RevTK's algorithm.

Not sure about kanji having a true meaning, at best you may consider they have one (or more) logical analysis (like operators), but it can seldom be expressed with a single word unless it gets heavily contextualised. For the time being, just focus on associating the shape of the kanji with a keyword. Later on, the gateway that is the keyword will flourish into its own network of meanings as you will encounter the same kanji used in various compounds.
Edited: 2013-08-09, 1:04 pm
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#4
For an Anki kanji deck I'd reccomend https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/3397828991

Most of the stories are pretty bad, but it has built in links to dictionaries with stroke order and revTK as well as multiple additional meanings of the kanji. Using that as a base and modifying stories from revTK worked well for me. It uses the lazy kanji card format(kanji and only kanji on the front) by default, but it's easy to change the format to whatever you want by messing with the card layout if you find it doesn't work for you.

Regardless, at least for the first couple hundred kanji you should be spending effort explicitly visualizing the stories and personalizing them though as you progress it will gradually become second nature and the stories will stick with less effort.

Anki's great because it lets you keep all your reviews in one place rather than spread out over multiple locations.
Edited: 2013-08-08, 10:58 pm
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#5
Alright, I have finally gotten started. I downloaded a popular Anki deck and am using it to study in the manner of Keyword --> Kanji (write-out). For stories so far, I am using both Heisig's and RevTK user stories. Though I see now that I am starting to prefer the latter as Heisig's stories, although sometimes very intricate, are kind of long and sometimes are too confusing (or just off).

Obviously, I am reading through RTK to learn more about primitives and for completion's sake, although I feel as if I am going to lean more on using user stories in the long run...

A few things I have to ask, though:

1. Is studying yomi important at this stage or should I stick with learning to write the kanji for now? I know that RTK2 includes onyomi, however if I learned that now would I be getting ahead of myself?

2. What is the recommended amount new kanji to learn per day, on average? Should I be doing more in the beginning stage where I am now and drop the number down as the kanji become more complex?

Thanks for your responses, they have been very helpful.
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#6
1. In his method, Heisig speaks against learning readings while doing RTK. Some people say it's really easy to learn on'yomi while doing RTK, but I never did, and with something like 8 kanji pronounced GEN, 8 pronounced KAN, etc, I find it more confusing than not. And kun'yomi don't really need to be learned systematically, since there more varied they tend to stick more when encountered (kaminari, ichigo, yanagi...).

2. You shouldn't really vary the number, gaining momentum through a routine is important imo. A nice pace can be set with 25 kanji a day (count 80 days in total), which I think is recommended by Heisig. 33 kanji a day is a nice average (count 60 days total), though the cumulative reviews start to be straining. Some people can safely go up to 50 kanji a day (40 days), but I would advise against it. You usually find your own pace after a week or two.
Edited: 2013-08-10, 2:27 pm
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#7
Sorry, I'm completely new to this site so please forgive the "jumping-in-from-nowhere" nature of my comments, if they appear so.

I've read about RTK for years but got a hold of a PDF copy yesterday and started actually plowing into it.

Just for the record, I lived in Japan for five years and am fluent in speaking and understanding -- but I gave up trying to really study kanji about 2 years in because it was taking too much time away from my conversation/vocab, which I found so much faster to write down and remember in romaji. My mistake, but this was also 25 years ago Smile There was no Internet, no computers, no nothing except books and the ones I could find were very traditional kanji-learning books.

I decided to re-start my kanji studies a couple of months ago because I'm now actually teaching Japanese to adults here in Montreal, and although 90% of them want nothing to do with HIRAGANA, let alone kanji, against all my protests -- I decided that to keep ahead of the curve should someone suddenly step in who is actually learning kanji, I can say with confidence that I can help them.

So you can imagine that in 25+ years, I've tried every single trick in the book. Just not the RTK book!

I'm already running into problems with his method. Even though I'm taking his so-called "primitives" and actually looking them up and making my own "stories" for them I'm coming across kanji I haven;t seen in many blue moons -- not as stand-alones nor as radicals. For example, the deko-boko kanji (concave and convex).

Why have they even made an appearance so early on in the book? Like, Chapter Two? Shouldn't I be learning radicals like the tsuchi-hen or the "hand" hen . . . but the kanji for "concave?" I'm just not getting his methods. Furthermore, it wouldn't have hurt him to put in the on'yomis and kun'yomis -- we were all going to have to look them up ANYWAY.

I mean, the title of the book is "Remembering the KANJI," not "Remembering them Chinese Characters."

At any rate, I have dutifully looked up every one of the kanji so far up to chapter three and made up stories etc. but my question is, is this going to start to pay off sometime in the future if I stick with RTK as opposed to just going off on my own and learning all the kanji associated with the moon radical, then all the kanji associated with the hand radical etc. etc. OR just do it the good old way: learn 'em all one by one, radicals and all, in the same order schoolchildren learn them?

At this very moment, I have about seven different kanji apps on my iPad and of course, the resources of the entire Internet at my command. Since I haven't had time to read through all the forums, is there someone here who has actually come across someone who posted that "After trying many other methods, I did the whole RTK books and they were EXACTLY what I needed to learn the whole Jouyou kanji in X amount of time."

Reason being, I don't want to get too far into the books before having to decide that they aren't working . . . what seems to be the general consensus so far?

Again, sorry for jumping in without having perused all the commentaries first.
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#8
Heisig order of kanji is by their structure and components, not by their frequency or usefulness. As such you will find some off-the-wall ones early on, and some really common ones much later (or left out entirely). This makes it easier for learners with little/no kanji experience to pick them up, but certainly seems silly to someone with more.

There is such a thing as a "RTK Lite" out there which drops the count to 1200 or so and loses many rare ones.
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#9
kamakiri. If you use the stories from this site, the studying will go much quicker. I did RTK1 in about 6 weeks (didn't practice writing at that time though...used Skritter later for that). With the stories from this site, if you can do from 25-50 kanji a day you'd be finished in about 1.5-3 months. A few kanji not being of great use will be relatively inconsequential.
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#10
Are these "stories" in the same order as the RTK ones? Where might they be found? I would be interested to see how they differ from the ones I came up with . . . =+)
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#11
kamakiri Wrote:Are these "stories" in the same order as the RTK ones? Where might they be found? I would be interested to see how they differ from the ones I came up with . . . =+)
I thought you missed that :> It's the main function of this site. Go to the top page http://kanji.koohii.com/ and look at the the top tabs. You can add the kanji in the same order of the book. There is an SRS flash card system that works well and you can review on-line. If you click on the "Study" tab and enter any kanji, you can see an example of the stories. They are really good and the most popular ones are at the top. It will speed up your studying a lot.
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#12
Kamakiri, yes, Heisig's method is not structured by frequency. It's designed so you can get through the writing and main meaning (though, with kanjis that all mean very similar things, he had to use some secondary ones to differentiate them) in the *fastest*, most *efficient* way possible. It really is well organised. The book is designed to be finished in 2 months of full time study, but most users on this site seem to take about 4-6 months, I've heard. So by ordering them according to the "primitives" that make them up, a lot of time is saved. If you want to go through the Joyo kanji quickly, there is no more efficient method than Heisig's. I'd recommend picking up a 6th edition though, as there were 194 or so kanji added 2 years ago, that the pdf probably doesn't have.

Having just gone through RTK2 (the book) for the onyomis, I can say that the way that is structured is also very helpful for learning the kanjis' readings, although, yes, once again, it is not structured according to frequency. It took me about 7 weeks to get through, at a rate of 70 kanji a day, though there were about 2 weeks in there when I did not touch it, and so if I hadn't taken those breaks, I would have finished it faster. There is an anki deck for the 5th edition of RTK2, and I'm currently working, very slowly, on updating it to the 6th edition...
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#13
Guys,

Thanks for the replies! Okay, like an impatient reader of romantic fiction, instead of asking after having read the first chapter whether or not Rodney ends up winning Megan's heart, I should just read the damn thing and find out.

Even though it looks perplexing and pointless at this juncture (beginning of ch. 3) I will persevere, having no other particular "method" presently at hand.

And a book . . . ONE BOOK (or series) that engenders an entire website dedicated to just IT . . . well, what's that they say about 10,000 flies?

Since I have no other "method" floating around at this point in time, I shall endeavor to pursue this course.

The Anki application, however, has me completely flummoxed. I guess what I need is a flashcard system that shows me a kanji on one side, while I write down everything I can possible remember about it, and it grades me on that kanji and puts it into a pile of "done" "half-done" "needs work" and "fail!" which I can repeat ad nauseam.

I've already, for the sake of my students, prepared charts in Adobe Illustrator (to be turned into PDFs) of the first 80 Jōyō as according to school kids' first-year studies, so they seem to be very appreciative of that, and it also helps re-drum the various "yomis" back into my increasingly enfeebled neural nets, but I shall again start with the Heisig from where I left off. Too bad the dude is no longer around. He may have had some more revolutionary ideas on "Learning The Kanji."
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#14
kamakiri Wrote:but I shall again start with the Heisig from where I left off. Too bad the dude is no longer around. He may have had some more revolutionary ideas on "Learning The Kanji."
I thought he is still around?

Wikipedia Wrote:He currently resides in Nagoya, Japan, where he continues to conduct research at the Nanzan Institute for Religion and Culture.
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#15
kamakiri Wrote:The Anki application, however, has me completely flummoxed. I guess what I need is a flashcard system that shows me a kanji on one side, while I write down everything I can possible remember about it, and it grades me on that kanji and puts it into a pile of "done" "half-done" "needs work" and "fail!" which I can repeat ad nauseam.
nji.
You can use the flash card system built into this site. It works good.
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#16
Welcome, kamakiri, and good luck with your new kanji endeavor ;-)

I'd like to add my two cents, even if some of the following things have already been addressed by other users.

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EDIT - TL;DR:
1) Forget everything you think you know about kanji.
2) Then read the last part of this message (key points of Heisig's method).
3) Finally, re-read the book's introduction and skim through the start of each chapter, to get a better grasp of the method.
4) Give the SRS integrated into the site a try, as PotbellyPig said.

Sorry for the long post. I got out of control as usual Undecided
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First, it happened the same to me with Anki: it was too cumbersome for me at the beginning, so I used (and still use) the SRS integrated into the site and it worked beautifully well for the 3030 kanji I'm able to write now ;-).
At some point in the near future I'll migrate to Anki for the sake of unification and simplicity, as I'm already using it for vocabulary; it has some advantages too (like being able to review off-line or to add kanji outside those 3030, to name a few), but I'm really grateful for the SRS implemented by Fabrice. Don't be shy to give it a try if you are not ready for Anki yet ;-).

Second, I don't know how much kanji you know at present, but I have to recommend you to FORGET ABOUT EVERYTHING you know about them -well, more realistically, to pretend you forgot- before you start with Heisig's method (and please note that I'm being flexible about what "knowing a kanji" really is, as it can mean any combination of the following: being able to write it, able to recognize it, able to read/pronounce it, knowing some vocabulary words associated to it, etc).

So: forget about readings. Forget the vocabulary. Forget about radicals -if you already know enough about them, which I guess it's the case-. The reason I'm telling you this is because Heisig's method -taking into account you've been playing with the language for some time now (to the point you're teaching it!)- is granted to blow your mind up in several ways, so IMHO it's better if you abandon any preconceptions.

Having done so, now it's a good time to re-read the introduction of RTK1, which is more dense and has more information than it might seem at first, and then, always in my humble opinion, it would be a good exercise to go through the entire book to skim over all the bits of information at the start of every chapter and get a grasp of what this thing is all about. Some of your questions will be answered (for instance, yes, you are supposed to do the reviews going from keyword -front- to kanji -back- drawing it -even with your finger in your hand- before checking the answer). Anyway, let me try to break the method down and put it all together in the next paragraphs:

The main idea behind all of this is efficiency. The method is designed to require from you the least amount of time and effort to tame THE WHOLE ISSUE of kanji. Sadly, that still means you'll invest lots of time and effort, but it'll be a tiny fraction compared to other methodologies; in my case, it's the only method that even worked beyond the 50 kanji mark.

What this efficient approach means is you'll be doing awkward things because your goal is a long term one and you'll be taking the shortest path there. Put another way, you'll be taking an amazing shorcut, but doing so you won't be able to get any short term achievements or put all of your knowledge to much practical use until you get, say, around 80% of the way (of course this last statement is very subjective and controversial, based exclusively on my personal impressions, not on any real data). It may sound strange to proceed like this but based on my experience I can only say it's the most clever way to tackle this problem, and hopefully you'll see its advantages once you give it a try. Given that some of the users can go through the whole first book in a couple of months, and a majority of us does so in a period ranging from 4 months to a year (actually, it took me more than two years, but I'm kind of an edge case for multiple reasons), it doesn't seem like a bad choice, does it? After all, you'll be able to differentiate and write appropriately more than two thousand kanji after that period (even if you didn't learn any real vocabulary during that time... but how hard will it be to learn vocabulary using kanji after that? ;-).

Having established all of the above, let's analyze the methodology: think about the phrase "divide and conquer". The first part of the series, the RTK1 book, is probably the most useful (a lot of the users here would agree with me on this, I think), but here comes the biggest mind blow you'll suffer: as already stated, with it you'll learn to write every single kanji in the 常用 ("Jōyō") list (give or take) without ever learning a reading for them or a single Japanese word. I wish I had the words to explain how this is so much the right thing to do but, apart from what I explained above, you'll have to just trust me. Then, the second book (RTK2) is about learning the readings, only when you've already finished the first one. Finally, the third book (RTK3) is just a repetition of books 1 and 2 (it has two separate parts for this) for additional kanji, up to ~3000.

I didn't like the approach of the second book, and reading this forum you'll get to know that a lot of users felt like me, while a few found it really useful (the rest of us just jumped straight into vocabulary without caring much for singular readings, you'll find more information diving into the forum). Still, even if it's not for everyone, I think RTK2 has its merits.

As this message is already too long, let me finish highlighting the main points of the method for the first part (RTK1: writing and meaning), which I think remark the best of Heisig's ideas and his ingenuity:

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RTK1 key points
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1) You'll learn just how to write the kanji (which will enable you to recognize them as well) but not to read them nor any vocabulary formed with them (divide and conquer: now you're just becoming friends; reading and vocabulary is for the next stage, in which they already form part of yourself :-P... so forget about readings and vocabulary in your reviews, for the moment).

2) You'll associate a "meaning" with every kanji (although kanji don't really have a "true" meaning: some of them represent a very concrete concept -or several related concrete concepts [sun, day]-, some other cover diffuse or vague areas, and some even have several incoherent "meanings"). You'll be doing so (associate meanings) through the use of keywords (which are just "mnemonic placeholders"; at a later stage, while learning vocabulary you'll get to know them better and substitute this placeholders with a deeper rooted concept, not relying anymore on such keywords, so don't worry too much if they aren't extremely precise: the more precise the better, but it isn't critical, really).

3) You won't learn them in the "most useful" order from a practical usage point of view, but on the "most efficient" order to learn them all (this allows you to be *several times* faster).

4) As if the previous ideas (which include the systematization of the order in which you learn the kanji) weren't revolutionary enough, he also systematized the whole mnemonic method: he unraveled the kanji with more precision than radicals do (admittedly this is not so revolutionary) and assigned each part a VISUAL counterpart to be used when making a VISUAL story, which serves as a way to relate all the parts of each kanji with its keyword (and sometimes their placement within, too, when necessary). Think of it as a "visual glossary" [Note: I'm clearly abusing the term "visual" here, but for good reason: the stories have to be "visualized"; it's not enough to just learn them as if they were a series of words -I have some exceptions to this rule, but not more than 20 ~ 50 in my whole collection of 3030 stories-; it's very easy to overlook this at the beginning and it will come to bite you later].

As a final note, the stories, too, evolve with time: at first you have to construct them very detailed, but with every review they slowly fade away until only the key points of it remain; finally, you no longer need the story at all and go directly from keyword to shape... but sometimes, when your mind is unable to recall that direct link, the story is still there and comes to your rescue.

I hope this long digression served to clarify things a little.
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#17
kamakiri Wrote:The Anki application, however, has me completely flummoxed. I guess what I need is a flashcard system that shows me a kanji on one side, while I write down everything I can possible remember about it, and it grades me on that kanji and puts it into a pile of "done" "half-done" "needs work" and "fail!" which I can repeat ad nauseam.
Cards are never "done", but you see them much less often when you know them better (the spacing can be years).

It's usually better for each card to ask for only one thing. If you need to learn more than one thing, make more cards.
http://www.supermemo.com/articles/20rule...0principle

In the Heisig method, the cards have the English keyword on the question side, and the kanji on the answer side. To pass the card, you have to write the kanji correctly.

If you know spoken Japanese already, it might be worth using Japanese keywords (written in kana) for at least some of the kanji.

If you use Heisig's English keywords, there's nothing wrong with adding a Japanese hint to the question in addition to the keyword.
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