I also agree that you don't need to roll right into RTK3. That's for when you advanced your studies to where you're getting more and more words with kanji you don't know (specialized fields and names normally).

For what to do, definately learn via sentences. I think the best is to take either Genki, the Kodansha Classics (Dict. of Basic Japanese Sentence Patterns, All About the Particles, Dict. of Verbs, Dict. of Adj. and Adv.), or Japanese for Everyone. By the time you roll through those sentences you should have a basic grasp of Japanese. For the intermediate, I'm at a loss. I will be doing Kanji in Context. For advanced, perhaps get sentences from a novel or television script (way, way down the line for me).

Perhaps, after you've done basic and intermediate training, do RTK3. Then roll into advanced training.

Btw, you could also just trying to start reading manga in Japanese.

There's lots of manga with furigana over every kanji (for example
Mx0, Cat Street, Fruits Basket, etc).

Most manga are well below RTK1 in terms of kanji level.
And you'll get a good feel for daily conversation.
I would advise NOT using a dictionary while you're reading and just
guess the kanji meaning from context.

If you can't guess meaning of a word or phrase,
just highlight or mark the word and move on. When you're done
reading, input the words you don't know into Anki and
review regularly.

danieldesu Wrote:As for looking up words you don't know the reading of, that was always a mind-bender for me too. If it is on a website, you can use the rikaichan plugin for firefox, if it is in a book, sometimes books have furigana, but otherwise, you pretty much need an electronic dictionary where you can draw a word using a stylus. I recommend the "Kanji Sono Mama Rabuhiki Jiten" for the Nintendo DS, and that is how I always look up words. With rikaichan sometimes I tend to gloss over the kanji, but if I force myself to draw in on the Nintendo DS, then I really pay attention to what I am doing.

If I'm online, I use rikaichan. If I'm just on the computer, I use JWPce. If I'm away from the computer, I write down the words I don't know and look them up on JWPce after(even without furigana, there's many ways to look up a word on the computer). Personally, I find paper dictionaries useless. I wish I had a portable dicitonary...how does "Kanji Sono....Jiten" compare to EDICT and such?

Kanji Sono vs. an EDICT is a function of patience and money. If you're short on both, you're kind of out of luck. If you have patience but no money, Kanji Sono is a good stopgap. It has the same Genius 2 dict that just about all EDICTs use, but it lacks other dictionaries that the EDICTs have. Downside is that you're stuck with using the DS as your EDICT, so there's a bit of a lag with startup. EDICTs are more expensive, don't come with instructions in English, but are generally faster. Kanji Sono runs about $30-$40. EDICTS can go from the low $100s to $599 for the top of the line Seiko. (Which has the awesome Kenkyusha dictionary.)

I've been using Sharp EDICTs for a few years now. They're not the best, but I like the mix of low price ($250 range), familiar interface (to me anyway. Not everyone's cup of tea.), and now with stylus for looking up kanji by drawing it. (Just like Kanji Sono.) And the fast startup is what keeps me using them. (Although Kanji Sono was great when i didn't have an EDICT that had a stylus, as it makes kanji lookup almost pain-free.)

The best option is to go to Japan and play with them at a big store like Bic Camera. That way you can find something you like without regretting the purchase later. Or see if anyone near you has one you can try.

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:[...]And after a bit of that I can start the sentence method?

I started doing sentences the same day I finished RTK (I couldn't wait), and I immediately started learning pronunciation and vocabulary.

If you have at least a basic understanding of grammar and a basic vocabulary (both of which I had, but very basic), then you can start right away, IMO.

Regarding Tae Kim, while you read it (don't bother studying it) you can take the example sentences you like. If, later on, you see some grammar that you don't remember, you can always go back and refresh your memory with the related lesson. I found that after that it's difficult to forget that grammar point again.
You can do that with any good grammar book, of course.

>Most people don't "learn" the readings. I would say that actually
>volume 2 is not customary. Most people will learn readings by simply
>building vocabulary and then recognizing patterns.

I would agree that at least on this site, it appears that most people do not use volume 2. However, volume 2 is, in fact, all about learning the readings by building vocabulary. As my reading ability was very poor after volume 1, I have found using volume 2 to be very helpful.

I am now perhaps half-way through volume 2 (frame 1177), and have acquired enough vocabulary (about 2000 compound words), so that I can read a little. Now I am adding additional vocabulary both through my reading and volume 2.

As they say, different strokes for different folks.

Cheers,

The good thing about RTK2 is that it has all kanji grouped to make it easier to remember the 'on' readings, but the deficiency of RTK2 is that it doesn't teach any context for the example compounds, so while you learn how to read compounds you don't learn how to use them or what is their nuance. Also the 'kun' readings are not addressed much.

A good way might be to do both RTK2 and sentences, for example as you learn a new reading group, learn compounds and at least one sentence for every compound.

gibosi, how long did it take to finish half of RTK2?

It took me about a month to do about 900 on-readings in RTK2, using Mnemosyne. After that I got the hang of on-readings stopped using the book(and the groups were getting more mixed)

At least RtK2 gives you the signal primitives and the groups. I find this very useful, even though I've not worked through the whole book.

Then it's decided. I'll start reading RTK2 in conjunction with the sentence method, referring to Tae Kim's guide when necessary and I'll try and get some of those books mentioned, preferably in eBook form.

And I'll also brush up my katakana (been meaning to do that).

Thanks again for the excellent responses.

Ok, how am I actually meant to learn the readings in RTK2? There's no actually hook this time. Are we meant to use just brute memory?

mine plan for when i finish rtk1 is just reading manga and learn by contextwith furigana and not look up words(except compounds of multiple kanji)
after all you learn japanese to do fun things, so might as well start having fun in the learning process.
also nice are the japanese graded readers,its the same idea as reading manga with furigana, but in some manga the furigana is very small and hard to read, in japanese for graded readers its easy to read.
everytime i open a book i learn things even though i understand about 70% in the level 2 book i have finished so far(momotaruu)
cost only 25 euro and then you have 5 books and an audio cd, depending

RtK2 is presented as a guide, whereas RtK1 is a complete course. So yeah, your methods is up to you (though he gives some guideliness for mnemonics etc). I suggest an SRS like Anki, or just wait for Trinity. There are some threads about kanji chains on this board that can give you some more ideas.

ivoSF, this may be of interest to you, since you play go as well ... I found an introductory level go book with furigana and lots of pictures. The great thing is since I understand all the ideas, (the book is directed to beginners, I'm 4k) and with all the pictures, furigana and knowing the kanji through Heisig, I can figure out most of the book without a dictionary. Of course, most of the kanji readings and verbs are go related, but they have applications outside go, and in keeping with the AJATT spirit, you learn best when you love what you're reading. For the first time I can sit in a coffee shop and read a book in Japanese without a dictionary, yeah. (Well, maybe "plod through" is a better verb than "read" at this point)

billyclyde Wrote:RtK2 is presented as a guide, whereas RtK1 is a complete course. So yeah, your methods is up to you (though he gives some guideliness for mnemonics etc). I suggest an SRS like Anki, or just wait for Trinity. There are some threads about kanji chains on this board that can give you some more ideas.

Aha, thanks. I'll just utilize my Anki then. I'll check out those chains as well (been hearing a lot about them).

Another thing, where do I get English definitions for the sentences I find. For example, I just read over at khatzumoto's site, good ones to start with are: 「夕食の支度をする。」 and 「慌てて登校する。」 but I don't know what they mean. Do I just put them into Jim Breen's dictionary, or...? I mean I'd like to have some solid answers to these things lest I develop some bad habits for the future.

Early on stick with what's already translated-- from a textbook, or bilingual books like "Breaking into Japanese Literature." I watch subtitled TV and write down what I don't know and figure out the kanji with a dictionary later. Simple sentences (like from a clothing label) you could translate yourself; for more complex stuff, take your time until you _know_ the meaning. Just make sure it's stuff you like!

billyclyde Wrote:Early on stick with what's already translated-- from a textbook, or bilingual books like "Breaking into Japanese Literature."

Ooh this looks good. I'll try it out.

Thanks.

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:Ok, how am I actually meant to learn the readings in RTK2? There's no actually hook this time. Are we meant to use just brute memory?

The readings are grouped to re-enforce each other and make them easier to remember. Use the example words. You can use sentences if you can find some. But believe it or not, it's not impossible to remember something without a special trick. You'll have to learn the pronunciation of thousands of Japanese words...they aren't related to English, you just have to learn them. You can't rely completely on kanji to tell you what every word means; with kun-readings(and sometimes on) the meaning changes with the reading.

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:Another thing, where do I get English definitions for the sentences I find. For example, I just read over at khatzumoto's site, good ones to start with are: 「夕食の支度をする。」 and 「慌てて登校する。」 but I don't know what they mean. Do I just put them into Jim Breen's dictionary, or...? I mean I'd like to have some solid answers to these things lest I develop some bad habits for the future.

If you're a beginner, definitely use something with translations and/or explanations. Another reason to use Tae Kim's site, you'll get sentences with translations, and they teach grammar points at the same time. Getting a textbook would probably be a good things.
Anyway, look up the words in the sentences, and if you still don't understand, maybe you're grammar needs some work.
「夕食の支度をする。」 means "(to) do preparations for dinner" dinner's-preparation-do
「慌てて登校する。」 means something like "attend school with haste". Maybe someone else can translate that smoother.

yukamina Wrote:The readings are grouped to re-enforce each other and make them easier to remember. Use the example words. You can use sentences if you can find some. But believe it or not, it's not impossible to remember something without a special trick. You'll have to learn the pronunciation of thousands of Japanese words...they aren't related to English, you just have to learn them. You can't rely completely on kanji to tell you what every word means; with kun-readings(and sometimes on) the meaning changes with the reading.

Ok good. I'm actually looking forward to trying traditional learning after months of crazy stories, ha.

One last thing on that. I was planning to use Anki for my SRS for reviewing RTK2, but I'm pretty sure that system switches around the 'questions' and 'answers' from time to time, which would be a bit crap ("what's the kanji for 'me'?"). Is there a way to keep it Kanji-to-reading or is there another programme I should use?

Oh, and I got "Breaking into Japanese Literature" today. Looks like a great little book that should hopefully prove helpful.

In Anki you can choose if you want to do Q->A only. Its very flexible.

Actually you can make cards that have as many attributes as you like A, B, C, D... and then make it create flashcards in any pattern youlike A->B, C->B, A+B->C+D, whatever.

The Heisig deck for Anki is made like that, so it has the Kanji, Frame Number, Stroke Count, Keyword, and one type of flaschard is created using Keyword on the front and Kanji+Frame Nuber+Stroke Count on the back.

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:Oh, and I got "Breaking into Japanese Literature" today. Looks like a great little book that should hopefully prove helpful.

Make sure to go in order. The Soseki stories are the easiest. The next story "In a Grove" will be a little harder for you if you have no idea what humble and honorifics are, but over all, it is not so much more difficult than the Soseki ones (it's long and uses a lot of the same kind of language, so after 5 pages or so it should be much easier).

I'm in the middle of "The Nose" right now and I've found it much harder than the first two sets of stories. There just seems to be a lot of sentences where I don't know an adverb/adjective, the noun, and then the verb also, so I have to piece everything together very slowly with the dictionary at the bottom.

Just be careful while reading and keep in mind some things are archaic. Most of the words will still be common, but a many of the word's kanji have changed or aren't used anymore. If you search a word on Yahoo's Japanese dictionary and then look at the kanji next to the hiragana, if it has an X on it it means its not in common use anymore.

vosmiura Wrote:In Anki you can choose if you want to do Q->A only. Its very flexible.

Actually you can make cards that have as many attributes as you like A, B, C, D... and then make it create flashcards in any pattern youlike A->B, C->B, A+B->C+D, whatever.

Oh really? Do you know how I can change it? I've tried everything (including Anki FAQ) and haven't come across any instructions.

I tried just now, bearing in mind what you said about the Heisig option, to add them the other way around (kana in the kanji slot and vice versa) but each of my "kanji" had to be unique so I couldn't progress with that idea.

sutebun Wrote:Make sure to go in order. The Soseki stories are the easiest. The next story "In a Grove" will be a little harder for you if you have no idea what humble and honorifics are, but over all, it is not so much more difficult than the Soseki ones (it's long and uses a lot of the same kind of language, so after 5 pages or so it should be much easier).

I'm in the middle of "The Nose" right now and I've found it much harder than the first two sets of stories. There just seems to be a lot of sentences where I don't know an adverb/adjective, the noun, and then the verb also, so I have to piece everything together very slowly with the dictionary at the bottom.

Just be careful while reading and keep in mind some things are archaic. Most of the words will still be common, but a many of the word's kanji have changed or aren't used anymore. If you search a word on Yahoo's Japanese dictionary and then look at the kanji next to the hiragana, if it has an X on it it means its not in common use anymore.

Thanks for the advice. The fact that some aren't even used now is particularly worth remembering.

Virtua Leaf,
different fields can be added in the "fields" tab of the "model properties". In that same tab you can toggle the uniqueness requirements for the fields.

In the "cards" tab, on the other hand, you can decide how many cards are created for each fact you insert, and their settings.

Hm, I have a question. I just finished RTK1 yesterday, so I'm on the same boat.

I downloaded Anki a few months ago, but never got around to use it. I would like to add sentences from Assimil and the other Japanese books (Breaking into Japanese literature among others) into Anki. Passive recognition is most important to me now that I learnt the RTK1 kanjis. Adding all the sentences into Anki would give me opportunity to learn the readings for a lot of known kanjis passively.
After doing this for awhile, I would like to actively write the sentences. How can I do this?

nac_est Wrote:Virtua Leaf,
different fields can be added in the "fields" tab of the "model properties". In that same tab you can toggle the uniqueness requirements for the fields.

Thanks a lot mate!

About the sentence method. Should I study sentence to English. The other way around? Both?