I just finished core 6000. I kept using watered-down example sentences because they were an easy way to learn vocabulary...but now I really need to get used to real Japanese. It's frustrating though when I just can't figure out a sentence. What are some suggestions for dealing with those? I know I could ask in the "what's this word/phrase?" thread but there's so many of them. Is it a good idea to just skip every sentence I can't figure out? I think then I would just continue gaining vocabulary but still not be able to read the harder stuff. Using material that has an English translation is really helpful, but there's a lot I want to read that doesn't have that.

Edit: Basically um...what is the path to becoming ultimate grammar master, so I can read anything comfortably. JLPT grammar books?

Beyond the basics the best way to get used to real Japanese is to read real Japanese. When you encounter an unknown sentence structure look up the relevant grammar principle, and then continue reading.

[RawToast]

kudokupo Wrote:Is it a good idea to just skip every sentence I can't figure out? I think then I would just continue gaining vocabulary but still not be able to read the harder stuff. Using material that has an English translation is really helpful, but there's a lot I want to read that doesn't have that.

When I was reading for Tadoku I would just accept that I don't understand fully (e.g. "Dave something about Bobs red car") and continue along. If the structure appears a few times I'd make a note and check it up later.

Using something like the L-R texts (even if just reading) may help initially as you can simply glance across at what the sentence means.

kudokupo Wrote:Edit: Basically um...what is the path to becoming ultimate grammar master, so I can read anything comfortably. JLPT grammar books?

I'd look at the Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar (DoBJG) as a good base.

No amount of grammar text books will let you read native Japanese comfortably without actually reading a lot of native Japanese. With 6000 words under your belt it is enough to get your foot in the door without having to constantly pull out a dictionary. Grammatical reference books, however, I cannot recommend the Dictionary of Basic/Intermediate/Advanced enough.


What RawToast wrote.

This was something of a breakthrough for me.

http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Te...edir_esc=y

Tense and Aspect. Clearly fundamental concepts, thnigs I think determined learners ought to look into from the beginning, yet may be considered too complex to grasp before knowing a significant amount of grammar and vocabulary. At least that's the impression I get from grammar guides. Are most beginners taught that -ta and -ru can both refer to past, present and future tense? It's really fascinating, and shouldn't be overlooked.

Research papers do a good job of making this information accessible long before reaching an advanced stage, by whcih time you'd probably have realised all of this intuitively, but unable to explain those intuitions. Not that that's a bad thing, but studying them explicitly drastically reduces the time spent wondering how to interpret utterances, and I think people should take as many shortcuts as they can in a language with no cognates lol. At the very least, it'll expose the fundamental semantics to sentences you can already comprehend to some degree. Hope this helps.

simple answeR: read a lot. you're saying you want to reading fluently without reading or something? lol.... the only way is to READ/ look up stuff that you come across that you don't understand. it doesn't have to be everything frikin thing but as long as you look up something you're making progress. i recommend looking up common stuff as in stuff you come across multiple times. i recommend tae kim personally. i have an inkling you're translating or just not used to thinking in japanese or in the japanese way or whatever since you're saying you come across hard sentences. that's all fixable as long as you read in japanese and immerse yourself and all that.

It would be great if I could always find what the grammar pattern is that's preventing me from understanding some sentences, but almost always I don't know where to turn to understand it. I suppose I'll just stick to material that's has a translation of some kind.

at the same time though the translation is gonna hold you back from "thinking" in japanese or in the japanese way. As long as you don't strictly restrict your reading to ONLY materials that have translation I suppose it's not a problem you'll eventually get in the swing of things. are you reading stuff that's way too difficult for your level? challenging yourself is good and all as long as you don't burn out and it's not too challenging. people always mention n+1 and it's so true.

I always attempt to understand it on my own first, then look at translation, and never put the translation on the card unless it's some kind of literal translation that helps me understand a complicated phrase. I'm not really happy unless I can "comprehend" it in Japanese and I try to forget the translation ASAP. It seems effective at getting used to patterns, and probably a better idea than learning a ridiculous amount of grammar. :/ Just no being able to understand 100% of material without translations for a while.

ryuudou Wrote:Beyond the basics the best way to get used to real Japanese is to read real Japanese. When you encounter an unknown sentence structure look up the relevant grammar principle, and then continue reading.

That's gonna prove tricky. He can't know the relevant grammar principle, if he doesn't even know what the sentence means. He would have to spend at least ten minutes per sentence google-ing, just to figure out what the grammar used is. And there's no guarantee that he'll find it, either. There's a good chance it's not a standard sentence structure.

If you wanna study grammar, you have to study it in a structured way. Then, when you roam the planes of the Japanese Serengeti and run into a wild animal you remember seeing in your picture book before, you can whip out your manual and remind yourself of the specifics. (actually, you should just run, and I should stop using stupid analogies)

Luckily, you don't have to study grammar to understand it. It's a good idea to, up to a point, because it makes things easier, but you don't absolutely have to. In conclusion, the options are:
a. pick up a good grammar book, or
b. just read a lot; when you don't understand a sentence because of complex grammar, read the translation and then read the Japanese sentence again; this time, it will make a lot more sense why it means what it means; guaranteed.
c. and this is by far the best option: a combination of both.

Stansfield123 Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:Beyond the basics the best way to get used to real Japanese is to read real Japanese. When you encounter an unknown sentence structure look up the relevant grammar principle, and then continue reading.

That's gonna prove tricky. He can't know the relevant grammar principle, if he doesn't even know what the sentence means.

This isn't necessarily true. He's not an absolute beginner, so he should be able to know from sentence context. Then he can easily ctrl+F any kind of grammar resource.

Steve Kaufman composes a load of articles about literacy (ability to read and write) in his blog 'thelinguist'. Intensive reading is the key to extent your comprehension. Don't waste your time, particularly at the beginning, to look up all the time your dictionaries. You're going to be able to determine the meaning of words by reading them in multiple contexts, which will create some connections. If you still don't get some sentences, look them up.

I use Rikaikun, wordreference, a grammar book, and google translation when I really want to understand a word.

^There is no utility in telling people what not to do, LimNG. Not everyone learns something the same way.

Quote:You're going to be able to determine the meaning of words by reading them in multiple contexts, which will create some connections. If you still don't get some sentences, look them up.

Do you see a contradiction to the attitude expressed here?

I think the most useful resource I had in this area (weird grammatical conjugations) was actually standard rikaichan.
That dictionary can explain anything with a simple mouseover...it's amazing. Esp. next to expensive dictionaries like kenkyusha etc.
I'd just type my sentence into a google searchbar and mouseover the whole thing/problem area.

Stansfield123 Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:Beyond the basics the best way to get used to real Japanese is to read real Japanese. When you encounter an unknown sentence structure look up the relevant grammar principle, and then continue reading.

That's gonna prove tricky. He can't know the relevant grammar principle, if he doesn't even know what the sentence means. He would have to spend at least ten minutes per sentence google-ing, just to figure out what the grammar used is. And there's no guarantee that he'll find it, either. There's a good chance it's not a standard sentence structure.

If you wanna study grammar, you have to study it in a structured way. Then, when you roam the planes of the Japanese Serengeti and run into a wild animal you remember seeing in your picture book before, you can whip out your manual and remind yourself of the specifics. (actually, you should just run, and I should stop using stupid analogies)

Luckily, you don't have to study grammar to understand it. It's a good idea to, up to a point, because it makes things easier, but you don't absolutely have to. In conclusion, the options are:
a. pick up a good grammar book, or
b. just read a lot; when you don't understand a sentence because of complex grammar, read the translation and then read the Japanese sentence again; this time, it will make a lot more sense why it means what it means; guaranteed.
c. and this is by far the best option: a combination of both.

why would it take so long? once you are familiar with the te- and the form where su goes to shi most of it is unconjugated and looked up. of cours enot everything's going to fall under those 2 categories but it's cover a lot of it... you don't even have to memorize the conjugations, you can just refer back with control f .