My (probably insane) goal is 1kyu in 5 years, of which I'm mostly through year one. I've finished RTK1 and daily tests are more or less holding steady at 85-95%. I just finished the onyomi for RTK2. From what I can see, the usual recommendation is to not bother with kunyomi out of context.

My problem is, where do I go from here? I own RTK3, but after 9 months of nothing but kanji and daily reviews of 200+ kanji cards, I'm getting a little sick of the buggers. My vocab is limited and my grammar is, well, basic. I was thinking about CORE2k, but I'm not sure if it wouldn't be better to go after a grammar book instead.

So, um, help?

N1 in 5 years is certainly not insane. N1 in 3 months is insane. Really, I would personally aim for 2 years-2 and a half years for N1, but that's just me. Don't underestimate yourself!
I'm still pretty much a beginner myself, but I'd recommend a healthy dose of comprehensible input in the form of anime/tv shows/movies/books/manga or whatever as well as grammar study using anki from Genki/Tae Kim/Kanzen etc.
Doing sentences or Core 2/6k are both good choices. I myself found the core 6k to be soul crushingly monotonous and boring, but then I'm 13, so what do I know?
Really, if you have the kanji down and you're aiming solely for JLPT, I'd say focus on structured vocab and grammar.

N1 in 5 years isn't an insane goal at all. Who knows, you might be able to pass it well before the 5 year mark.
Since you say that your grammar and vocab aren't very strong, it would be a good idea for you to work your way through a good textbook. I used Japanese for Everyone - it covered a lot of material and was one of the cheaper ones available. Unfortunately it seems to be difficult to find now. A lot of people have had success with the Genki textbooks. Japanese Pod 101 is another really good option, plus it has the added benefit of giving you some listening practice.
It would also be a good idea to start reading manga and watching some easy Japanese TV shows, with or without English/Japanese subtitles.
Another option for vocab is to work your way through Kanji Odyssey 2001. Since you've studied kanji with RTK, you should be able to pick up some new vocab and kanji compound words without too much difficulty.

JusenkyoGuide Wrote:[...]I was thinking about CORE2k, but I'm not sure if it wouldn't be better to go after a grammar book instead.

Both work well together.

Core 2k gives you a solid vocab base. Also, it should be pretty easy to go through if you use your rtk 1&2 knowledge. (Association --> better recall and recognition). It also has audio/translations so that's convenient.

Anything will work, but... core 2k is a safe bet as long as you understand the common particles. You could read through JPTMW or Tae Kim (or anything of the like ) in a week or two, and then move on to core. Meanwhile, you may continue studying grammar if you feel the need to, or focus on a high input + vocab/sentence type study (using references or dictionaries whenever necessary).

Comprehensible input, (as Hirakana had mentioned), helps you familiarize yourself with sounds and sentence structure and other patterns of language/culture.

I like nadiatims' suggestion

nadiatims Wrote:Basically what it comes down to for me is the following: accumulating listening and reading practice to get used to the patterns/phrasing and pronunciation/rythm/etc while also steadily accumulating new vocabulary and idioms with some light grammar only if/when it becomes strictly necessary. If you have the opportunity to write and speak in Japanese too, then these skills will improve as you accumulate practice and also as your other (so called passive) skills improve. So the question is how to do this as efficiently and painlessly as possible and getting the biggest bang (effect) for your buck (time).

My passion with Japanese is to know it as naturally as I know English. I've thought about how nice it would be in a 5 year time frame, but the idea itself won't accomplish it for me. One thing worth remembering is that your rate of learning is strongly reflected in your day to day efforts, which gets fueled by your day to day intent. I find I can onyl learn a fraction from other people relative to self-contemplation and personal experience.

Anyone further along than yourself could offer some structure, but whatever learning material you gather to move on, never stop thinking about why you use them, i.e. how they're advancing your proficiency, and continue to experiment with other resources when you lack confidence in what you already do. While regularly changing your mind and trying different things may seem contradictory, you'll gain a wealth of information and self-efficacy by figuring out what helps you with what among a vast range of stuff.

I'm being intentionally vague because there's simply no feasible way to list or quantify the scope of what there is to learn post-RTK (let alone learning how to learn how to use that knowledge intuitively), but if you find yourself progressing at a rate faster than you could possibly explain to other people (even though you might like to), then you're probably doing something right.

Do a grammar book (which you can also mine sentences from), and then pick between a frequency list like Core or just reading very easy things with your SRS to help you remember things.

http://japaneselevelup.com/what-level-are-you/
This guide has some great advice on how to proceed with your learning schedule.

pmnox Wrote:http://japaneselevelup.com/what-level-are-you/
This guide has some great advice on how to proceed with your learning schedule.

Quote:50: Business
- This doesn’t mean you can discuss business. It means you can work at a company with no problems like a normal Japanese person would
- Can understand: Japanese TV (80%), Japanese News (75%), Novels (80%)

80: Native
- Can go to a Japanese University like any normal Japanese student with no problems
- Anki sentences: 15,000~20,000

99: Legendary
- Can enter any deep technical profession (physicist, neuro-surgeon, microbiologist)

I wonder how one is meant to work at a Japanese company with no problems only being able to understand 80% of everything... on the other hand attending a university or reading academic papers don't require a particularly high level of Japanese.

If only going through 15-20k Anki sentences had any relevance to reaching native ability. :lol:

Aside from the potential half-truths, you make some interesting points.
But... I assume "15-20k" sentences in Anki implies recognizing 15-20k words. Of course he holds a bias for his own method (monolingual i+1, immersion, conversation).

I think you you made a mistake just focusing on kanji. You should be doing kanji, vocabulary and grammar all at the same time. Doing kanji by itself without studying vocabulary alongside I think is inefficient. But since you do know a lot of kanji now, I think a good thing would to just read something with furigana and make a Anki deck with all the words you have trouble remembering that come up multiple times. You can also get DOJG to help you read as well.

egoplant Wrote:I think you you made a mistake just focusing on kanji. You should be doing kanji, vocabulary and grammar all at the same time. Doing kanji by itself without studying vocabulary alongside I think is inefficient. But since you do know a lot of kanji now, I think a good thing would to just read something with furigana and make a Anki deck with all the words you have trouble remembering that come up multiple times. You can also get DOJG to help you read as well.

DOJG?

And I went with kanji because, frankly, I'm tired of being illiterate. That and also language study has proven less than stickable, whereas I do tend to remember what I read.

[Zgarbas]

DOJG is short for Dictionary of Japanese Grammar, a series of 3 books aimed at collecting Japanese grammar points and explaining them, along with example sentences and information regarding similar-but-not-identical terms. Pretty much the greatest book there is for japanese grammar. Highly recommended. Has its own anki sentence deck readily made. The first in the series is Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar (followed by Intermediate and Advanced). I love it as a supplement and use the anki decks as a study source, but I don't know how well you could learn everything from scratch with it.

I'd recommend doing core 6k while doing a textbook. They go well together (most beginner textbooks have vocabulary identical to core2k, with small differences and a different order). It doesn't really matter which beginner textbook you choose since they're mostly the same (Genki, Minna no Nihongo, Tae Kim, whatever you find first). Basic Kanji Book is also a good book for learning the readings and basic vocabulary.

I'd say save RTK3 for later. First you should reinforce your current kanji knowledge by learning how to actually use it.

When and how much you focus on immersion in your studies is up to you. To me, immersion is a supplement. To others it's their main learning resource. I wouldn't recommend it before finishing at least core 2k, if not core6k, but others focus on immersion from the get go.

And yeah, N1 in 5 years is not a stretch by any means. Keep at least an hour of study per day and you'd be surprised by your improvement. The secret is perseverance

JusenkyoGuide Wrote:My (probably insane) goal is 1kyu in 5 years, of which I'm mostly through year one. I've finished RTK1 and daily tests are more or less holding steady at 85-95%. I just finished the onyomi for RTK2. From what I can see, the usual recommendation is to not bother with kunyomi out of context.

As others here have said, 5 years is definitely not an unreasonable timeframe in which to achieve N1. Having said that, the key is consistency. Looking back on my years studying Japanese, my largest, by far, regret is having studied in spurts. If you set reasonable daily goals for yourself you will most certainly be able to achieve this. Try to resist "binging" as much as possible; it will feel like you're getting a lot done or "making up for lost time" but you will burn out and feel terrible afterwards. Sorry to sound so dire but seriously, spend some time on these forums and you'll see that same lament repeated many times.

JusenkyoGuide Wrote:My problb is, where do I go from here? [..] So, um, help?

For me, grammar is much more easily learned than vocabulary, particularly through "osmosis" or, "contact with native materials". In other words, you will gradually pick up usage as you go so my advice in regards to grammar would be to get the basics down by reading a few tutorials online. The go-to site is usually Tae Kim's Guide to Grammar, but really just get any book on the subject to get the basics down and you'll be fine. From there, you'll pick up the rest through reading 小説 (novels) or 漫画 (manga), watching 映画 (movies) or ドラマ (television dramas), speaking with friends, &c. When you hit a stumbling block you can look it up in a grammar reference. Having first encountered something "in the wild" of which you were uncertain and then going to look it up will make it stick far better than having first studied it in a grammar book through examples.

Vocabulary, on the other hand, is much more difficult to learn through osmosis, at least in the beginning and intermediate stages. Think of reading books in your native language when you were younger and how many times you had to re-read a particularly difficult word until it stuck. As you gain proficiency, however, it's far easier to do this because your brain starts to recognize patterns (i.e. primordial and primeval both have pri and therefore probably have similar meanings). Until you get to this stage though it's best to "prime" your mbory with as much vocabulary as possible through dedicated vocabulary study. I use the word "prime" here because it isn't until you encounter a word you've previously studied through dedicated study in the wild until it really sticks.

You'll see a lot of advice on here and elsewhere advocating the creation of "immersive" materials (the sentence method, MCDs, &c.). However, IMHO, materials are only truly immersive when they are not divorced from their original context. In other words: read books, watch movies, talk with native speakers. The fastest way to gain value from this is building your vocabulary through dedicated study. Then, when you actually do these things you'll have a lot of 「なるほど！」 (Aha!) moments when that vocabulary you've been studying will finally make sense.

@distefam

What do you think about taking vocabulary and grammar from songs?

use rikai-chan.