I'm currently repping the core2k in Anki. I'm also doing RevTK but considering switching to WaniKani.

Take the sentence 日曜日は図書館に行きます for example.

I'm pretty much a Kanji newbie and do not know the individual meanings of 図,書,館.

The problem I'm seeing is that I remember the word because I remember the sentence, I'm not recognising the Kanji or picking out the word because I'm recognising the Kanji.

Does this annoy anyone else? Or does it sort of Iron itself out over time?

I want to start going about this the right way.

Cheers for any advice.

[RawToast]

Quote:The problem I'm seeing is that I remember the word because I remember the sentence, I'm not recognising the Kanji or picking out the word because I'm recognising the Kanji.

This is a familiar pain! Although, this only happens on grammar decks for me as I do vocabulary individually.

With my grammar decks this problem has gone away, with enough cards you struggle to remember the sentence as much. Whilst for any vocab I don't know I just go 'something, some action' if on revealing the answer I should've known the word I'll fail the card.

When you read kanji, you're not consciously supposed to think of the individual meanings of the characters, just the meaning of the actual word they're used in (at least that's how Japanese people read). A lot of people do spend time getting farmiliar with the most common kanji before diving into vocabulary (I did RTK for example, stopped reviewing early this month), but that's all it will do: make kanji appear more farmiliar.

Quote:The problem I'm seeing is that I remember the word because I remember the sentence

People say this a lot, but they're focusing on the wrong part of the problem I think. I'm very opinionated here, so take this with a grain of salt.

You need a sentence (i.e. some context) to reinforce new vocabulary, so remembering a word because you learnt it in a sentence is a good thing.

What isn't a good thing is trying to learn vocabulary from sentences that you don't understand. If you can't yet recognise most of the grammar in the core sentences, then you barely gain anything from them, because there's no true comprehension involved, just a bunch of extra symbols. You'd have to look up every verb inflection and grammar construct individually, which is a drag.

You'll gain much more from the core sentences when you can infer general meaning from the particles and longer grammatical constructs, verb inflections and common expressions etc.

Take the card right after the one you mentioned, for example:

猫が屋根に上っている。
The cat's up on the roof.

IMO, you need to know why, in this case, the -て いる construct has produced a resultative interpretation instead of a continuative one (i.e. why it doesn't mean "the cat is going up to the roof", but instead infers that it's already there), and I shouldn't need to mention the importance of the particles, really.

A few cards later...

今、朝ご飯を作っています。
I'm making breakfast now.

Here, -て いる is continuative ("making breakfast now", not "now made breakfast"). "WTF" one might wonder. Here ya go: http://homepage3.nifty.com/park/aspect.htm

There's also the concept of verb transitivity, which is a big deal in Japanese.

Quote:Relevant to our analysis is that the viewpoint and reactions that English speakers and Japanese speakers take toward expressing situations differs in the moment of spontaneous expression. That is, these language speakers differ in their habitual approach to situations. English speakers will tend to use a transitive verb, while Japanese will tend to use an intransitive verb to describe the same situations (Morita 2004, p. 15).

http://www.jpf.go.jp/j/japanese/survey/g...7__192.pdf

Transitive and Intransitive Constructions in Japanese and English: A Psycholinguistic Study
http://d-scholarship.pitt.edu/13499/

Transitivity, causation, the passive voice, agent-implying and non-agent implying intransitive (Japanese) verbs, resultative and continuative event interpretations… I had to learn more about English grammar before I could effectively understand these papers, but they’re incredibly instructive, and enlightening.

I'm not saying you HAVE to read those studies ^, just that at some point, the fundamental concepts presented in them must be understood if you want to further your Japanese level beyond an intermediatey level. I have a feeling there is still many more idiosyncrasies between English and Japanese that I need to understand.

Yeah, that issue does fade away, eventually.

However,
"If your answer is close, it's wrong."

This tip may or may not be relevant... try to avoid 'Hard' unless you get the card right.

[I'm not telling anyone to be a perfectionist, just to avoid ambiguity.]

tarkonis Wrote:I'm pretty much a Kanji newbie and do not know the individual meanings of 図,書,館.

In this context 図書館 is 図書館, not 図, 書, and 館. 図書館 is more or less "library", and taking the kanji apart changes the compound in the same way taking an English word apart destroys the meaning. For instance, can you read the word "charismatic", without having to understand that it comes from the Greek χάρισμα, which in turn is derived from χάρις; without having to understand it's possible etymologies?

Drawing a line someone for the sake of further exposure is probably more useful for a beginner than trying to studying the roots of common readings, etc. as they become self-evident the more you read.

This is all opinion, obviously. Take it as a grain of salt and season your steak to personal taste. ：）

tarkonis Wrote:Take the sentence 日曜日は図書館に行きます for example.

I'm pretty much a Kanji newbie and do not know the individual meanings of 図,書,館.

The problem I'm seeing is that I remember the word because I remember the sentence, I'm not recognising the Kanji or picking out the word because I'm recognising the Kanji.

Ah tarkonis we meet again. I'm kind of happy you mentioned this, I've been noticing the same thing in my genki deck. I feel like you read my mind and beat me to this post.

uisukii Wrote:In this context 図書館 is 図書館, not 図, 書, and 館. 図書館 is more or less "library", and taking the kanji apart changes the compound in the same way taking an English word apart destroys the meaning. For instance, can you read the word "charismatic", without having to understand that it comes from the Greek χάρισμα, which in turn is derived from χάρις; without having to understand it's possible etymologies?

Drawing a line someone for the sake of further exposure is probably more useful for a beginner than trying to studying the roots of common readings, etc. as they become self-evident the more you read.
This is all opinion, obviously. Take it as a grain of salt and season your steak to personal taste. ：）

This is a perspective changer. I like the way you put it uiskii. I seasoned my steak pretty well by the way.

Animosophy Wrote:When you read kanji, you're not consciously supposed to think of the individual meanings of the characters, just the meaning of the actual word they're used in (at least that's how Japanese people read). A lot of people do spend time getting farmiliar with the most common kanji before diving into vocabulary (I did RTK for example, stopped reviewing early this month), but that's all it will do: make kanji appear more farmiliar.

Quote:The problem I'm seeing is that I remember the word because I remember the sentence

People say this a lot, but they're focusing on the wrong part of the problem I think. I'm very opinionated here, so take this with a grain of salt.

You need a sentence (i.e. some context) to reinforce new vocabulary, so remembering a word because you learnt it in a sentence is a good thing.

What isn't a good thing is trying to learn vocabulary from sentences that you don't understand. If you can't yet recognise most of the grammar in the core sentences, then you barely gain anything from them, because there's no true comprehension involved, just a bunch of extra symbols. You'd have to look up every verb inflection and grammar construct individually, which is a drag.

You'll gain much more from the core sentences when you can infer general meaning from the particles and longer grammatical constructs, verb inflections and common expressions etc.

Take the card right after the one you mentioned, for example:

猫が屋根に上っている。
The cat's up on the roof.

IMO, you need to know why, in this case, the -て いる construct has produced a resultative interpretation instead of a continuative one (i.e. why it doesn't mean "the cat is going up to the roof", but instead infers that it's already there), and I shouldn't need to mention the importance of the particles, really.

A few cards later...

今、朝ご飯を作っています。
I'm making breakfast now.

Here, -て いる is continuative ("making breakfast now", not "now made breakfast"). "WTF" one might wonder. Here ya go: http://homepage3.nifty.com/park/aspect.htm

There's also the concept of verb transitivity, which is a big deal in Japanese.

Quote:Relevant to our analysis is that the viewpoint and reactions that English speakers and Japanese speakers take toward expressing situations differs in the moment of spontaneous expression. That is, these language speakers differ in their habitual approach to situations. English speakers will tend to use a transitive verb, while Japanese will tend to use an intransitive verb to describe the same situations (Morita 2004, p. 15).

http://www.jpf.go.jp/j/japanese/survey/g...7__192.pdf

Transitive and Intransitive Constructions in Japanese and English: A Psycholinguistic Study
http://d-scholarship.pitt.edu/13499/

Transitivity, causation, the passive voice, agent-implying and non-agent implying intransitive (Japanese) verbs, resultative and continuative event interpretations… I had to learn more about English grammar before I could effectively understand these papers, but they’re incredibly instructive, and enlightening.

I'm not saying you HAVE to read those studies ^, just that at some point, the fundamental concepts presented in them must be understood if you want to further your Japanese level beyond an intermediatey level. I have a feeling there is still many more idiosyncrasies between English and Japanese that I need to understand.

Thanks for this, a very enlightening read.

I've pondered the need to study grammar many times, even so far as to read Tae Kim's guide. But for my level these is still a lot of things in Tae Kim I can't grasp either, so which comes first the chicken or the egg.

I'm approaching each new sentence as a set phrase, in that I'm not being so systematic about being able to use parts of the sentence in new sentences.

Take your example of

猫が屋根に上っている。

Now I know how to say "The (animal) is up on the roof"

I wont know how to say "the cat is going up onto the roof" until I'm exposed to that sentence in the future.

Like uisukii said,

"Drawing a line someone for the sake of further exposure is probably more useful for a beginner"

That's the approach I've taken to grammar at this point, just being able to regurgitate the sentence for now to learn new vocab in some kind of context than just reading word lists. I'm going over tae kim when I hit a roadblock in that I don't understand the verb conjugation at all. Rikaichan is also good at telling me the verb conjugation in a given sentence.

@uisukii: What I should have said is "I'm pretty much a Kanji newbie and do not know the individual READINGS of 図,書,館".

Take the word 全国 in 次は全国のお天気です。which I had lots of trouble memorising and failed lots of times.

That was until I remembered I knew the word 外国人.

Knowing how to read and write 国 really helped me to remember the word 全国.

i was just concerned that I was skipping over words that I don't recognise, but in time I guess, it shuold i ron itself out if the above keeps happening. Maybe I just answered my own question.

But at least I got some interesting papers to read on the subject. So it was worth the post!

tarkonis Wrote:@uisukii: What I should have said is "I'm pretty much a Kanji newbie and do not know the individual READINGS of 図,書,館".

Take the word 全国 in 次は全国のお天気です。which I had lots of trouble memorising and failed lots of times.

You may find this of some interest, but right now is the first time I've come across this sentence and said term 「全国」. What you may find interesting is that I assumed it was pronounced ぜんこく and in the context on this sentence had no problem comprehending more or less exactly the function of 全国 (double checked to be sure- force of habit). It probably sounds unconventional but for whatever reason I've lost interest in vocab memorization, and find more pleasure in comprehension during the moment, in the moment.

language is like an orgasm of cognizance. Intimacy and pleasure seed the deepest roots. IMO.
＾＿＾

uisukii Wrote:

tarkonis Wrote:@uisukii: What I should have said is "I'm pretty much a Kanji newbie and do not know the individual READINGS of 図,書,館".

Take the word 全国 in 次は全国のお天気です。which I had lots of trouble memorising and failed lots of times.

You may find this of some interest, but right now is the first time I've come across this sentence and said term 「全国」. What you may find interesting is that I assumed it was pronounced ぜんこく and in the context on this sentence had no problem comprehending more or less exactly the function of 全国 (double checked to be sure- force of habit). It probably sounds unconventional but for whatever reason I've lost interest in vocab memorization, and find more pleasure in comprehension during the moment, in the moment.

language is like an orgasm of cognizance. Intimacy and pleasure seed the deepest roots. IMO.
＾＿＾

it is of interest and was inspiring and motivating so thanks for sharing.

tarkonis Wrote:Thanks for this, a very enlightening read.

I've pondered the need to study grammar many times, even so far as to read Tae Kim's guide. But for my level these is still a lot of things in Tae Kim I can't grasp either, so which comes first the chicken or the egg.

Well it's hard to appreciate the benefits of understanding something until after understanding it. I think Tae Kim's guide ignores an essential part of learning Japanese from a western perspective, and this website is a good primer http://kimallen.sheepdogdesign.net/Japanese/index.html

But even still, Kim Allen's (lots of Kims...) explanations of verb transitivity are not completely accurate, and perhaps sometimes vague/confusing. I resorted to more explanatory sources like the above and so far I feel that I've made a huge investment in the future of my learning. I don't think it's extreme to say that learners of Japanese should learn what/how Japanese think when they communicate ideas, otherwise we associate incorrect ones with seemingly simple phrases.

Think of it this way: the stuff I mentioned were all very "top-down", fundamental concepts that occur almost all the time in Japanese; the earlier you learn them, the more time you save. It's like having the picture of a puzzle beside you while you're working on it. If you decide to add peices of grammar to your knowledge haphazardly without understanding how these top-down concepts shape the language as a whole, it's like doing a puzzle without an image for reference. Significantly more guesswork is involved, and much more time is required to achieve the same results. Having that 'image' is definitely worth the time investment.

tarkonis Wrote:I wont know how to say "the cat is going up onto the roof" until I'm exposed to that sentence in the future.

Well, you'd still use te iru, but you'd use supplementary adjectives or context or something to clarify that you mean the continuative. The link from my last post explains it all.

"その少女は一歩一歩登っている。
The girl is climbing step by step."

I'm glad you find them interesting they wouldn't help much otherwise lol