Not quite sure where to post this... but oh well. So, lately I've been feeling incredibly burnt out on studying Japanese. Apart from half-heartedly doing my reviews, I've not listened to, nor read any Japanese today - and I've had a couple of other days like this too.

I've just been feeling like "what's the point"? I feel a little 'weird' or 'strange' for wanting to study the language, I mean - who learns Japanese? Very few people I imagine. I'm not saying I only do things if/when others do them - I'm not a sheep, but it's been an extremely lonely journey learning this language so far, I get the feeling I wouldn't be feeling this way if I was learning Spanish or French (which I initially tried to learn before Japanese).

Plus, It's kinda hard to get lots of exposure to Japanese when so many of my interests lie in English. For instance, I'm a massive football (soccer) fan, sure, I could watch some of the matches in Japanese (in fact, I have) but it just isn't the same (not to mention they don't show all of them). How will I cope when the new season rolls around, or better yet the world cup? I can see the Japanese I've learned going down the toilet.

In short: How do you guys cope with de-motivation?

If you're not interested then you're not interested.

Japanese itself is one of the most interesting languages in the world that enables many fascinating opportunities though.

[01:49:44] <Flamerokz> "you should just quit I do Anki 13 hours a day and I ruined my life"

Flamerokz Wrote:[01:49:44] <Flamerokz> "you should just quit I do Anki 13 hours a day and I ruined my life"

If you did that you were studying wrong. Anki isn't a method it's an assistant.

Thanks for the response - I'm definitely interested. My main reasons for learning Japanese are anime, manga and video games, the former two of which I used to previously hate. My problem stems from the fact that:

it's a lonely journey - I've never met a Japanese person, the only Asian people I know are Indian, Chinese & Vietnamese.

Don't know anyone who shares an interest in learning Japanese, learning Japanese is seen as weird, otaku ect. Again, I wouldn't be encountering these problems if I was learning Spanish (which I intend to pick up again), I actually KNOW real life people who speak it as a native language.

Argh! so many negative thoughts circulating in my head.

.

My first advice is care less what others think, especially when it comes to things about yourself or things you (do/may potentially) enjoy. If you can't do this, then yes, languages like Spanish and French are far more socially understood in many western countries. This isn't going to change anytime soon. This point goes far beyond languages and is not something that can be taught as far as I know.

Second, if you're going to learn Japanese then some of your interests will shift around to reflect that. Note that this doesn't mean excluding what you already like. To me, if you genuinely wanted to learn Japanese you would be pining to incorporate Japanese elements into your life, whatever they may be. As an aside: you not wanting to watch soccer in Japanese is understandable. There's a lot more out there in Japanese than that to choose from, and it's not like watching games in your own language is going to cause your learning to diminish.

As for your lonely journey comment, yes, finding people with your interests in real life is a challenge for many people. Be that as it may, Japanese has garnered huge amounts of attention worldwide, meaning that even if you have to speak over the Internet, there's a wide variety of interest groups that can keep you feeling connected (some closer than you think: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=3649).

But Ryuudou said it best. If you're not interested, you're not interested. Do not "force" yourself to be interested. That just seems all sorts of wrong to me. Hope you find what you want to do.

I think it's time to think about the reasons why you are learning Japanese.
For me, it would be nice to use it in a career at some point, but currently it's
a way for me to enjoy media/novels which aren't translated into English, and that's
enough for me. Whenever I feel unmotivated I go back to what made me what to learn the language in the first place.

If having a community of people who learn Japanese is important to you
there are sites where you can chat with Japanese people,
as well as forums like this one to chat with other learners.

In general though, if you are always going to regret dropping Spanish because you would rather do Spanish, then I would do Spanish instead, or ladder Spanish & Japanese (Read books about Japanese in Spanish, listen to Spanish music/news while doing something in Japanese or vice versa).
If you want to go back to Spanish solely because people around you know it, and are more accepting of it than Japanese, then I would ask yourself if that is important enough to you to drop Japanese for it.

Oh, and if it helps, you might want to find at least some friends who appreciate your interests. Most people I've mentioned Japanese to have been really impressed. It's not why I'm learning the language, but I can't say it's not a nice bonus. ^-^

kaizer Wrote:Thanks for the response - I'm definitely interested. My main reasons for learning Japanese are anime, manga and video games, the former two of which I used to previously hate. My problem stems from the fact that:

it's a lonely journey - I've never met a Japanese person, the only Asian people I know are Indian, Chinese & Vietnamese.

Don't know anyone who shares an interest in learning Japanese, learning Japanese is seen as weird, otaku ect. Again, I wouldn't be encountering these problems if I was learning Spanish (which I intend to pick up again), I actually KNOW real life people who speak it as a native language.

Argh! so many negative thoughts circulating in my head.

Even if you were born yesterday there's more people out there willing to speak Japanese with you even if you were to converse with 5000 Japanese speakers a day every day for the rest of your life (fact).

You can also post a skype here too you know. Language learning partners are always fun.

I always leave some form of Japanese media in the background, even if I'm doing something else. (formation of habit/identity).

Anki ruins motivitation when it becomes the center of your study.

Habit/identity/enjoyment is more effective than 'motivation'. Anyone learning through rtk / srs faces the dilemma of "must finish now". Thus, SRS [especially Anki] quickly becomes mechanical, forced.

Find ways to minimize difficulty and discomfort.
Priorities must be set, clarity be sought.


EDIT:
twitter.com/ajatt can provide simple, effective answers to any questions you might have.

A more effective alternative is to search twitter for "ajatt [term]".
/exclude brackets and quotation marks

e.g. i search ajatt repeat
And I focus on the word "repeat" until the word becomes deeply engraved into memory.
I allow other words to define "repeat", but I only concentrate on the term I'm ambivalent about, passively ignoring what seems like pointless words. His twitter feed is clear, concise and he tends to repeat himself, to the point where an idea you were ambivalent about becomes painfully obvious.

After a quick glaze through one to two years of tweets I gain a clear understanding of the idea K tried to express in an article -- simply by searching a single, general term.

This technique also works with JP sentences and terms.

Repetition works when learning any skill you're interested in.
When studying for a test, you repeat and/or create a broad network of knowledge.
Repetition works for anki, because it ensures you remember something for the long run.
Immersion works for repetition.
wait... yeah, that works.

Eventually that idea you've repeated becomes deeply engraved into memory, because you've seen it in various contexts, thus creating a schema -- a broad network of knowledge.

In summary, ignore pointless words and learn whatever you're ambivalent (or curious) about. When some fear holds you back, let it go and continue doing what you love to do. Become comfortable with the small things in life that inspire you to improve, and try to make it a part of your everyday living.

Wow, so many helpful responses, not sure where to start.

@Bokusenou - My reasons for studying studying Japanese are similar to yours - I figured, I'm gonna watch that anime, read that manga, play that game or watch that drama anyway, so I may as well learn some Japanese while I do it - I've done this, albeit to a limited extent.

@Aspiring - that's another thing that bugs me, this "identity" thing, in the back of my mind I have this worry about "becoming" or "being seen as" Japanese.

P.S: How do you respond to comments without having to quote the entire post? Otherwise this thread will get too messy (I know - total n00b).

Why is it wrong that you only did your reviews, and haven't done any more Japanese today? Are you in a hurry somewhere?

The beauty of doing something you don't desperately need to do is that you can take your time. Just relax. Watch Japanese stuff when you feel like it / find something interesting to watch.

Motivation isn't something you create artificially. It's something that's supposed to based on your interests and goals.

@chigun - good advice, you've given me something to think about. I think more people would learn languages if they knew it didn't have to be a slog - it's an unhealthy mentality that needs to go. The "solution" from people in higher positions seems to be to make people continue doing the stuff doesn't work, but to do it sooner, at a younger age.

@Bokusenou, yeah the laddering is something I wanted to do, but I wanted to wait until my Japanese got better to do it.

Stansfield123 Wrote:Why is it wrong that you only did your reviews, and haven't done any more Japanese today? Are you in a hurry somewhere?

The beauty of doing something you don't desperately need to do is that you can take your time. Just relax. Watch Japanese stuff when you feel like it / find something interesting to watch.

Motivation isn't something you create artificially. It's something that's supposed to based on your interests and goals.

You're right - it's not "wrong" by definition. I've developed an unhealthy, perfectionist mindset towards learning Japanese (and in general). Also, it's this whole "10,000 hours" rule thing - I feel like I have to have listened to/read an exact number of Japanese by a certain time or I'll never progress/learn other languages I want to learn.

kaizer Wrote:[...]
@Aspiring - that's another thing that bugs me, this "identity" thing, in the back of my mind I have this worry about "becoming" or "being seen as" Japanese.

By 'identity' I meant being comfortable with whatever it is you enjoy. (e.g. football/anime/video games).

..."If you do what you love the opinions of others don't matter".
--someone

Aspiring Wrote:

kaizer Wrote:[...]
@Aspiring - that's another thing that bugs me, this "identity" thing, in the back of my mind I have this worry about "becoming" or "being seen as" Japanese.

By 'identity' I meant being comfortable with whatever it is you enjoy. (e.g. football/anime/video games).

..."If you do what you love the opinions of others don't matter".
--someone

Ah, I see, when I read the word 'identity' I immediately thought of something completely different. I guess it's the paranoia of having the "learning Japanese = wants to be Japanese" label tacked onto me

That quote is extremely relevant to me. I care about others opinions way too much.

kaizer Wrote:You're right - it's not "wrong" by definition. I've developed an unhealthy, perfectionist mindset towards learning Japanese (and in general). Also, it's this whole "10,000 hours" rule thing - I feel like I have to have listened to/read an exact number of Japanese by a certain time or I'll never progress/learn other languages I want to learn.

I'm ambivalent about that 10,000 hours meme. On the one hand, it illustrates the importance of hard work and practice, and tries to set the record straight on another cultural tendency, to reflexively attribute success to raw talent. That's good.

But it's not a "rule". It's a fairly arbitrary number, that people take way too literally. In most cases, you can be successful with a lot less work than that. In the case of Japanese, if you truly love the culture, I'd estimate that after about 7-800 hours, there's no going back. I'm not saying that you will be fluent in 800 hours, but after that point it would be almost impossible to not continue learning until you are fluent. At that point, I would hardly call the process work.

For instance, I wouldn't call me watching Masatoshi Hamada's idea of a Dokkiri (

)for at least the fifth time, work. But I sure learned how to say "my nipples hurt".

Me being uncertain of what my own motivation is, I only have a small tip for you. (but maybe you know this already)
If you wanna talk with Japanese people you can send messages to Japanese people on Lang-8, asking them to speak with you in Japanese in change for you speaking to them in English. I've talked with lots of Japanese people on Skype by contacting them that way.

The 10,000 hours thing was always a rough measure of how much time it takes to reach a professional level (the top X%) in a field, not just proficiency.

i don't have problem with demotivation i found my interests in japanese things. what you're describing is not a an issue for me. you should find yours toooooooo. of course i still have my interests in stuff that's in english and i'm having difficulty maintaining both my japanese interests andenglish/american intersts and real-life just because there's so many hours in a way but whatever i do in japanese is enjoyable.

Aspiring Wrote:Anki ruins motivitation when it becomes the center of your study.

I also agree that Anki should not be the center of everything you do. It is just a tool to assist in your studies.

Stansfield123 Wrote:I'm ambivalent about that 10,000 hours meme. [...]

But it's not a "rule". It's a fairly arbitrary number, that people take way too literally.

Yeah, I don't see the reason why some people are so fixated with these numbers as if it is a rule written in stone. 10,000 words, 90-100% retention rate, xx,xxx to xxx,xxx sentences, blah blah... They are indeed nice and all and can be a motivation to others but when it is holding you back: throw those statistics and whatnot out of the window and just do anything fun in Japanese. Plus it is not the measure of how proficient you really are.

Learning Japanese is a long journey. It is okay to trip over/fall, to be demotivated, to take a break just for awhile because you can always stand up with renewed energy and get back on track again. Just do not lose your burning passion and love for Japanese. Never give up and always have fun doing anything in Japanese.

Hope this helps a bit!

Hello Kaizer,

I hope you have touched a little bit Japanese since your last message. It seems you have got some knowledge in self study language. And I encourage you to keep going in this way.

Accordance with your posts you've inadvertently closed yourself in an extremely lonely journey learning Japanese because you are having a tough time meeting Japanese people. Furthermore, most of your interests lie in English. I can feel that it is hard for you and anyone in your case. You get lost in the fog of effort and forget the joy that the mere thought of your destination can give you.

First and foremost, you may need to find people in your city or on Skype. Chatting 10 minutes could revive your passion. Languages exist in order to communicate, so you may need to converse.
Put away, for a while, your homework (textbook or flashcard) because a part inside of you are shouting that you wanna speak according to what I conclude. So what are you waiting for? go ahead!

I often have demotivation, but it's just in creating output. Because I don't have Japanese people close to me. And it's been worse since the summer started. Reading and listening to the language haven't bothered me so far I decided to do, as possible as I can, everything in this language. "Japanese can’t be just this thing you visit for an hour a day, five days a week, and then go on with your “real” life the other 90% of the time," said Khatzumoto.
I've decided to put it on top of my priorities and commitments. I heard and watch all the time, and I am remembering that these are leading to fluency. Today, I am working at building and growing my output skills: brush up on grammar and style, use immediately new words, and so on.

Adopting these new habits mean making major changes to one's lifestyle.

Keep going!

I don't know how good you are at Japanese but for future reference:

http://chatpad.jp/


It's basically a Japanese chatroom where you get randomly paired up with a person so you can chat one-on-one. It's really fun. I like to say really non-sequitur things and amuse people with my terrible grammar. Sometimes it's just fun to go on there and say completely random/made up things just to see (well, read) the other persons reactions. But it's also great to practice whatever you've learned so far even if you don't know much.

Now I have some people I've chatted with on Skype and I'm actually becoming pretty good friends with one them.