Hi everyone,

Been studying Japanese for several years now and just finished my 3rd year at university too, however, I've gradually found translation of complicated Japanese texts (political texts) into English much more difficult. Lots of my translations tend to be quite clunky, especially when I'm translating a sentence which has around 4 clauses etc with several modifying clauses too which I find are particularly hard to put nicely without it sounding clunky into English because we just don't add as much detail as you potentially can in Japanese. Lots of my university work is solid translation of hundreds of pages of Japanese texts so I have improved purely because of the amount I have to do but some f my translations still do not sound natural.

To sum up, does anyone know of any resources which I could take a look at which would help my translation skills? I'm currently reading the Routledge course in Japanese translation which seems to be pretty good but it's still not exactly what I want. Books, sites, tips - all help is appreciated!!!

Thanks everyone!

P.S This is my first post on this site, looking forward to being much more active!!!

[Zgarbas]

If the translations don't sound natural, it's because of the English, not because of the Japanese or the translation process. Break the sentences apart, combine them, add bits of grammar where necessary (just be careful not to change the meaning). It's better to have a natural-sounding end result than one which is faithful to the original text but sounds awful. Depends on the text though, I've never done anything political.

Oh, and don't keep untranslated terms just because "they don't have a perfect equivalent". I hate it when translators do that.

Welcome to the site

Have you read that book? It's pretty good I think:

The Routledge Course in Japanese Translation
http://www.amazon.de/The-Routledge-Cours...0415486866

Zgarbas Wrote:Oh, and don't keep untranslated terms just because "they don't have a perfect equivalent". I hate it when translators do that.

What, you don't like it when people do this?

JimmySeal Wrote:

Zgarbas Wrote:Oh, and don't keep untranslated terms just because "they don't have a perfect equivalent". I hate it when translators do that.

What, you don't like it when people do this?
http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo137...Keikku.jpg

Yeah I'm reading it at the moment, thanks!

Zgarbas Wrote:If the translations don't sound natural, it's because of the English, not because of the Japanese or the translation process. Break the sentences apart, combine them, add bits of grammar where necessary (just be careful not to change the meaning). It's better to have a natural-sounding end result than one which is faithful to the original text but sounds awful. Depends on the text though, I've never done anything political.

Oh, and don't keep untranslated terms just because "they don't have a perfect equivalent". I hate it when translators do that.

Welcome to the site

Thanks for the response! Yeah I try my best to fiddle around with the English clauses etc, but some sentences can be so dodgey! I guess I'll just have to keep working at it - it's probably a matter of experience!

JimmySeal Wrote:

Zgarbas Wrote:Oh, and don't keep untranslated terms just because "they don't have a perfect equivalent". I hate it when translators do that.

What, you don't like it when people do this?
*keikaku*

That seems highly redundant...

[Zgarbas]

Haha, yes. Fansubs are one thing, but half of our translated Japanese books are pretty illegible to people who don't know Japanese due to the untranslated (and often un-footnoted) terms. Or, for delicious redundancy, they keep the Japanese term and add the translation afterward, like "the chashitsu tea room", "The seimon main gate", etc. I have no idea where this fad with keeping untranslated terms even though they can be perfectly translated. We don't do it with any other language =/. Something between elitism and "wanting to sound exotic", I guess. And some translators insist on using stuff like "as for X" when translating は, which makes it nigh impossible to read.

And yeah, it takes a while to translate things and re-do them in your own language, and I guess it doesn't help that it is has more to do with your writing skill than your translating skill sometimes =). I'm sure it'll work itself out eventually, though. I always have a look at the translation as if it were originally in its target language, and just rewrite it as I would a normal text.

(all this being said, I am really poor at translating Japanese)

One thing that irks me in respect to translations of Japanese is when the translators translate away certain culturally relevant things such as how someone is addressed (little things such as 君、さん、ちゃん、etc.) in manga, and how sometimes translators effectively "Americanise" a character (I'm looking squarely at the official English translation of あずまんが大王, of the "大坂" character: making her into a stereotypical Southern North American).

JimmySeal's image of the Deathnote (stab in the dark guess?) fan sub is pretty hilarious. There is a part of me which refuses to believe people would do this, but there is another part of me which has also seen how... odd, a lot of people get over Japanese- as illustrated by Zgarbas's post above.


Also as touched on by Zgarbas, a lot of translation work, to make it not only accurate but 'natural', is a compromise of sorts between text-book literal rendering and poetic waxing. That is to say, from personal experience of reading (too) many English scanlated manga, you can tell when the translator understands the language they are working with, but perhaps does not have enough of a creative spark and understanding of the (hopefully native) language they are translating into. There are certain patterns (Xは、という、かもしれない、わけではない、etc.) which often get translated as if ripped straight from a textbook or dictionary of grammar; failing to grasp that these sources are there to provide a base function of the pattern and not at all a creative insight into how these patterns can be manipulated.

Quote:One thing that irks me in respect to translations of Japanese is when the translators translate away certain culturally relevant things such as how someone is addressed (little things such as 君、さん、ちゃん、etc.) in manga, and how sometimes translators effectively "Americanise" a character (I'm looking squarely at the official English translation of あずまんが大王, of the "大坂" character: making her into a stereotypical Southern North American).

So you want everyone to address eacho ther with -chan and -san in the English versions just like the worst of weebs do in real life? Using Mr. Tanaka sounds more natural in English than Tanaka-san.

I prefer it when they try to make the same sort of effect work in another langauge; how the hell should an American understand the differences between standard Japanese and Kansai弁?

Stian Wrote:So you want everyone to address eacho ther with -chan and -san in the English versions

More or less.

Stian Wrote:just like the worst of weebs do in real life?

Someone get the paddle. It's that word again.

Stian Wrote:Using Mr. Tanaka sounds more natural in English than Tanaka-san.

Not when talking about people your own age, etc. Also, there is a difference between someone calling someone Tanaka-san and Tanaka-chan, depending on the social position of the speaker. In media such as comics, often the nuance is entirely removed. Having prefixes where necessary is easier than having a bunch of footnotes all the time to explain the reason why someone is addressing someone in a way which changes the dynamic of the relationship between the participants of the discussion.

Stian Wrote:I prefer it when they try to make the same sort of effect work in another langauge; how the hell should an American understand the differences between standard Japanese and Kansai弁?

There are many ways without making the character a "Southerner". Also, there is a larger audience than just Americans, who are reading these comics which have been translated by American publishers. あずまんが大王, for instance, is read in English outside America, where the stereotyping of "Osaka" would make not a whole lot of sense. Though, to be fair, generally speaking the American reading demographic often forgets that other countries speak English.

[Zgarbas]

-san and -chan are not culturally relevant. As in, not culturally relevant enough to have a reason to be in material that is not in the Japanese language. There are many forms of address even in English, and can be adapted to each situation (Mr./Mrs/Miss/calling someone by their family name versus their first name/Sir/etc). It's not like sets of formality are unique to the Japanese language. Tanaka-san might sound decent for someone who knows Japanese, but not for someone who knows English and just wants to see translated media. It would be rather awkward for me to come over and say "uisukii frate, what's up?" just because English doesn't have a perfect equivalent for this form of address. Japanese is like any other language, and a good translation does not require too much knowledge of foreign languages or customs to understand it =). It's leisure reading, not Culture&Civilisation class.

Also, it can't be helped with the local stereotype. If someone is of a local stereotype from another culture you have to translate to the nearest stereotype in your own, lest the readers for whom you're translating cannot understand what you're talking about. It makes sense to translate an osaka character into a southern American one, and usually people work for their own country, not for other countries. If I do a translation I'll do it thinking about my publishing house's demographics, not some theoretical set of people who may or may not want to read it randomly. Similarly, if you're from the US, doing a translation for people in your country, for a publishing house from the US who will mainly send copies to libraries within the country, you don't have to do the translation with the rare foreigner who buys it online in mind. Just because they speak a global language doesn't make it any less different.

Zgarbas Wrote:-san and -chan are not culturally relevant. As in, not culturally relevant enough to have a reason to be in material that is not in the Japanese language.

Not entirely. Unless the person has a pretty decent handle on the English language when translating, it is not very easy to express the nuance behind, for instance, a student suddenly addressing a teacher as Xchan instead of Xsan- or Xshi/Xdono/Xsama, unless they have access to the character's first name (instead of calling the person Mr/Mrs/MsX, the person calls them by their first name). But I digress, as it is more stylistic preferences at this point.

Quote:There are many forms of address even in English, and can be adapted to each situation (Mr./Mrs/Miss/calling someone by their family name versus their first name/Sir/etc). It's not like sets of formality are unique to the Japanese language. Tanaka-san might sound decent for someone who knows Japanese, but not for someone who knows English and just wants to see translated media. It would be rather awkward for me to come over and say "uisukii frate, what's up?" just because English doesn't have a perfect equivalent for this form of address.

To be honest, I would prefer something like that, even if it means looking up the cultural nuance behind the usage. When reading something from another language/culture, I enjoy being exposed to as much of it as possible through translation. This probably isn't the norm, however.

Quote:Japanese is like any other language, and a good translation does not require too much knowledge of foreign languages or customs to understand it =). It's leisure reading, not Culture&Civilisation class.

Yeah, that's a fair call. In respect to knowing bits and pieces about the language and customs and how it ties in with the context of the narrative, I find that more relaxing and interactive. Once again, this probably isn't reasonable to expect of others besides myself.

[Zgarbas]

uisukii Wrote:Not entirely. Unless the person has a pretty decent handle on the English language when translating

Why would anyone be hired as a translator if they don't have a good grasp of the language?

.

How do translators manage to avoid source-language terms in their translations from other languages than Japanese?

French and German have two different words for "you", a polite and plain form. I've never seen this show up in translated works, ever.

Zgarbas Wrote:Oh, and don't keep untranslated terms just because "they don't have a perfect equivalent". I hate it when translators do that.

On the contrary I think translation work is (well can be depending on the skill of the translator) bad when certain things aren't preserved properly. Even honorifics can't all translate fluidly into English. It's definitely a thin line. I think Muvluv Alternative and Umineko are good examples of top-quality translations that preserve nuances/culture while being completely natural to readers. The key is to not "err" to far to one side.

Zgarbas Wrote:

uisukii Wrote:Not entirely. Unless the person has a pretty decent handle on the English language when translating

Why would anyone be hired as a translator if they don't have a good grasp of the language?

I've read a fair few translated manga wherein the translation has been effectively butchered. On the same note, I've great a fair few novels written in English, by native English writers/speakers, which have a pretty poor standard of writing. *shrugs* Doesn't stop them from selling at the same time as being slammed by critics.

Arupan Wrote:If leaving things such as -san, -chan, -sama makes sense to you, then maybe you should also leave all those different forms of "I" like 俺、僕、わたし、わたくし、あたし、あたくし、うち、わし、拙者、おら、こっち、自分、己、我、etc... just because they have a different nuance as well? The same goes for "you" - あなた、あんた、君、お前、おたく、貴様、そっち、自分、お主、てめえ、おのれ、etc...

No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. One instance I can think of right off the top of my head is the comic "Onani Master Kurosawa" in how a certain character is nice to everyone, however he addresses the protagonist as "Kurosawa-dono", whereas the way he addresses other people politely but not with the same "title". The character effectively speaks to people more or less the same, but without the prefix to compare in how he speaks to others, the English reader would miss an important nuance in said characters role throughout the entire comic.

Each example is different and I am off the opinion that in some contexts it is better to leave such things in as opposed to not using them as a general rule. A famous example I can think of is the characters in the Brer Rabbit Adventures:Brer Wolf, Brer Rabbit, Brer Turtle, Brer Fox, and Grer Gator.

I think I read somewhere, that a good translation should be invisible. Ie. you shouldn't know you're reading a translation.

Leaving ちゃん, さん, 様, 殿 etc doesn't make a lot of sense because the nuance or tone that these words add is not difficult to translate (If you disagree it's probably because your japanese level is still low). Just alter the style/tone of the translated sentence according.
The only situation in which I could see it making sense would be in a manga about a foreigner travelling to Japan and actually being in situations where san is used in English.

The only things that should go untranslated are names or words like sushi and karate which are well known and have effectively become english words.
The only exception I can think of would be a book specifically about Japanese culture/history or like i mentioned before a story about a character travelling to Japan and having someone introduce some cultural item.

Quote:Not when talking about people your own age, etc. Also, there is a difference between someone calling someone Tanaka-san and Tanaka-chan, depending on the social position of the speaker. In media such as comics, often the nuance is entirely removed. Having prefixes where necessary is easier than having a bunch of footnotes all the time to explain the reason why someone is addressing someone in a way which changes the dynamic of the relationship between the participants of the discussion.

The difference between -chan and -san is obvious; of course I am aware of it. Using Mr. Tanaka instead of Tanaka-san is reasonable, but using his first name or a term like "darling" could fit the use of Tanaka-chan depending on context.

A translation marketed to English speakers, regardless of whether they are Japanophiles or not, should be independent, and should not by any means require any additional knowledge of Japanese beyond words like Susi, Karate, Karaoke, etc.

And the "nuance" between Xchan or Xsan would used on a teacher could be done by using her/his first name or a nickname instaed of his/her last name...

Quote:There are many ways without making the character a "Southerner". Also, there is a larger audience than just Americans, who are reading these comics which have been translated by American publishers. あずまんが大王, for instance, is read in English outside America, where the stereotyping of "Osaka" would make not a whole lot of sense. Though, to be fair, generally speaking the American reading demographic often forgets that other countries speak English.

Most of us (ESL-speakers and people from the British isles) can tell a Stereotypical Southern US dialect from the standard Midwestern (aka "no accent").

Deleted post as this argument and line of discussion is distracting people from the original post and point of this thread. Sorry for going overboard with the responses.

uisukii Wrote:Deleted post as this argument and line of discussion is distracting people from the original post and point of this thread. Sorry for going overboard with the responses.

True. Well, the debate about how translation should be is interesting, albeit possibly endless. Maybe there should be another thread for debating translation.
OP I didn't know such things as that Routledge book existed until you made this thread. I otherwise would have thought one studies translation by comparing books with their translations.

uisukii Wrote:

Stian Wrote:So you want everyone to address eacho ther with -chan and -san in the English versions

More or less.

For someone actually familiar with Japanese culture, that'd work. Otherwise, using "san" and "chan" is going to be misleading. I think there usually are other ways to deal with these and other things appended to names, and when there aren't, "chan" and "san" won't cut it, in my opinion.

uisukii Wrote:Deleted post as this argument and line of discussion is distracting people from the original post and point of this thread. Sorry for going overboard with the responses.

Man... I'm sorry too... I do tend to go a bit overboard when discussing, although I don't discuss language stuff that often. :p