Basic summary of what I've done:

1) Did a half-assed job of learning Japanese in high school because I didn't really care about learning Japanese. Somehow managed to memorize all of the Hiragana.

-----1000 years later----

2) Decided to learn Japanese for good. Memorized Katakana.

-----a few years later-----

3) Did Heisig's 2200 Kanji with Anki (keyword to Kanji). Read the book once. Then I quickly read the book from the end to the start. Decided to get serious and properly use Anki this time. So I read the book one last third time from start to finish. Completed it and was satisfied with my progress on Anki. Shortly after, I gave up on my Heisig deck and quickly moved to Core 6000.

4) Did Core 6000 on Anki. Majority of the vocab is mature. At any given time, a few hundred vocab are young/re-learning (because I forget them). On average, I have about 100 reviews a day.

5) Read both of Tae Kim's Grammar Guide. Multiple times over a period of a few years (including before doing Heisig). Memorized most of it.

6) Read the "A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar" textbook about twice, maybe three times. What I read were things like the Key Sentences and the grammar notes. I mainly skipped the extra non-Key Sentences due to diminishing returns. This is basic grammar so I have decently memorized every grammar in the book. It's not an in-depth production-based memorization like how to set up a sentence/formation etc, but a basic recognition-based one. So if you grab a random grammar from the book, I can tell you a little (or quite a lot) about it.

7) Read the "A Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar" textbook twice. Like the above, the same thing applies (read most of the book, ignored non-key sentences, have a basic recognition-based memorization of all of the grammar, etc).

5) Did not read the "A Dictionary of Advanced Japanese Grammar" textbook but...

6) With the help of Anki, used it to:
i) Have a recognition-based (but not production-based) memorization of every Intermediate Grammar from the above text book. Most of it is mature.
ii) Still trying to have a recognition-based memorization of every Advanced Grammar from the above textbook. A work in progress but will be finished eventually.
iii) It was not necessary to use Anki to help me memorize Basic Grammar.

7) Read a few Genki textbooks. Found it a bit boring because I already knew most or all of the grammar used, due to having read Tae Kim's Grammar Guide first.

8) Read all three volumes of "Japanese in Mangaland". Found it a bit boring because I already knew most of the grammar used, due to having read Tae Kim's Grammar Guide first.

9) I have never read a Japanese book, watched a Japanese movie, read a Japanese manga, play a Japanese game, from start to finish COMPLETELY IN JAPANESE. But... I have randomly flicked through them, reading random passages to confirm I know the Kanjis I know. So I do have exposure to Japanese "in the wild". The only difference is that I'm not playing with the lion, I'm just watching it from a safe distance behind a glass wall.

------------------------

Despite having knowledge of 6000 vocabulary, and knowledge of Basic, Intermediate, and Advanced Grammar, I still don't feel ready.

I have never communicated with someone in Japanese via speech before. I don't really care either. I probably wouldn't do too bad anyway, I just need time to think. I prefer to communicate with text. My vocab and grammar is good enough to express what I want to say in text form. Having said that, my text is probably unnatural-sounding and broken, but understandable.

Listening to Japanese speech is my weakest point. I can only understand short sentences or utterances. Which is a problem because comprehending Japanese speech is my second most important goal (my most important goal is reading Japanese text).

Furthermore, I still feel that my recognition-based grammar is still not adequate, despite having memorized A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, Intermediate Japanese Grammar, and in the process of memorizing Advanced Japanese Grammar. Surely there must be more Grammar that I still need to learn?

What else is there that I can read?

What else is there that I can listen to?

What else is there that I can watch?

What else is there that I smell?

What else is there that I can do?

What essential textbook still needs to be read?

If there's nothing left for me to do as far as text books and learning resources go, then I'll be doing what I said in this thread (http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=10931).

And that is reading a Japanese book from start to finish for the first time and growing my own Anki vocab deck as I do so. I have the Vocab aspect covered, as far as the future goes. Can't say the same for Grammar, Speaking or Listening. The path I was considering taking was Core 10000 until that thread happened.

To Watch List

0 Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind
1 Laputa: Castle in the Sky August 2, 1986
2 Grave of the Fireflies April 16, 1988
3 My Neighbor Totoro Hayao Miyazaki
4 Kiki's Delivery Service July 29, 1989
5 Only Yesterday July 20, 1991
6 Porco Rosso July 28, 1992
7 Pom Poko July 16, 1994
8 Whisper of the Heart July 15, 1995
9 Princess Mononoke July 12, 1997
10 My Neighbors the Yamadas July 17, 1999
11 Spirited Away July 27, 2001
12 The Cat Returns July 19, 2002
13 Howl's Moving Castle November 20, 2004
14 Tales from Earthsea July 29, 2006
15 Ponyo July 19, 2008
16 Arrietty July 17, 2010
17 From Up on Poppy Hill July 16, 2011
18 The Wind Rises July 20, 2013
19 The Tale of Princess Kaguya

Number 9 explains very well why you still don't feel ready.

You just have to swallow your pride and dance with the lion.

I'm still at a beginner level and obsessed with my learning process, so I don't have much to contribute other than theory. On grammar...

Quote:I still feel that my recognition-based grammar is still not adequate.

"If English were SOV, then "Sam oranges ate" would be an ordinary sentence, as opposed to the actual Standard English "Sam ate oranges"."

It might be one of the first things ADoBJG teaches you, but farmiliarity is on a whole other level to merely understanding. The moment I try to write or say something remotely more complex than "subject-object-verb" in Japanese, I'm stuck because I'm wired to think in English. I can't rotely produce the correct Japanese word sequence for whatever I'm thinking because my knowledge of the necessary grammar isn't yet prefabricated, that is, retrievable from implicit, procedural memory without requiring conscious thought. A skill like that requires monstrous amounts of exposure to trustworthy (i.e. native) material. If you still have to consciously assemble words and other elements together to speak your mind in Japanese, then you need more exposure to its structure (grammatical constructs/sentence patterns) by seeing them more, thinking about them more, using them more, thinking about them while using them more until you can by-pass the interval of analysis prior to speaking and writing.

I'm basically describing immersion the long way so that's what I think would be best to start prioritising. Play with the lion. It'll continually challenge you and test your limits, and never hesitate. If it senses fear, taming it becomes significantly more difficult

Have you read any short stories? Any news articles? What about bilingual books or books with glosses, like the Read Real Japanese books? Have you been watching TV or movies with subtitles (English or Japanese?)

Like Stian says, you've gotta get in there... you don't have to jump in and start reading a novel, but if that's a lion, how about getting in to the petting zoo at least? Find something that's aimed at native speakers but also seems reasonably doable, and then find something even easier than that.

You are ready.

Whatever gaps remain in your knowledge are going to be filled in by encountering native materials, finding places you don't understand, and trying to figure them out or asking questions.

I always get the feeling that a lot of people on this forum jump into native material way earlier than I would recommend, but you've done the opposite! Haha.

The only thing you might be lacking in a bit is vocabulary, since you'll find that 6,000 is a bit low if you want to understand a novel for adults. And it will take you a bit of time to get used to grammar in the real world, since it will be less structured.

I'd recommend Read Real Japanese: Fiction as a final preparation for reading on your own. Once you finish it start reading regular novels.

At the same time, watch Japanese movies and TV shows with Japanese subtitles, which should improve your listening. After doing a lot of this you should be able to turn off the subtitles.

You could also play games as a way to practice reading or listening (depending on the game format).

Also, start writing entries on Lang-8 to polish your writing and grammar production, and your writing should get less sloppy.

And, well, do the JLPT. Start with 2, or skip right to 1.

I'll agree with the general consensus of reading real Japanese. I didn't read real Japanese before August of last year on a regular basis and then finally forced myself to read every day. Keep track of your progress and use what you don't understand to make Anki cards however you prefer. Oftentimes I was told that reading was the best option and I now fully agree. You can fully grasp, or at least attempt to, the words and context of the situation.

As to how I would start I just recommend a novel directed at kids. I started with Magic Tree House books then young-adult novels such as The Girl Who Leapt Through Time and some other stuff. Now I've moved onto more adult-oriented stuff such as Norwegian Wood and 永遠の０. Never stop challenging yourself. And I'd say the hardest part is the initial leap into reading. I really hated myself and my intelligence for not grasping what I now can quickly understand.

Read. A lot. Keep a vocab list in an SRS system like Anki or Skritter, and add unknown words as you go. Do a little SRS every day, but a lot of reading.

For listening, use subtitled anime or drama, and/or transcripted stories and novels. There's a ton of stuff here, on services such as LingQ, and available through certain Web sites that shall not be named. I started out with the 昔話 on http://hukumusume.com/douwa/; there's a ton of material there, all with text. Listen to an audio a few times, get as much as you can, read the transcript, and then listen again. Keep listening until you can "hear" the words and get the sentences. And don't stress about it at first; it takes a long time to get good. Listening is hard for most of us. It's hard for my Japanese friends who are learning English. I've been working on it for over a year, and there's still lots of material that flies in one ear and straight out the other.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend READ REAL JAPANESE: FICTION as a gateway to novels. The material in there is fairly difficult if you're new to reading full-length Japanese. I think a ライトノベル like ゼロの使い魔, 神様のいない日曜日, or the works of 山田悠介 etc. will likely be more accessible at first. Get a few easy books and a bunch of Web site articles under your belt, and THEN tackle RRJF before jumping into the likes of 村上春樹、よしもとばなな, et. al. Just my two cents.

Also? I can't believe you read DoIJG cover to cover. TWICE. That's hardcore, my friend.

[Zgarbas]

Yeah, light novels should be really accessible at this point, so you could practice your actual reading skills without having to worry about vocab. I was around the same level as you are now when I read my first novel, キノの旅 and didn't encounter any difficulties aside from getting tired since I wasn't used to reading.
Also, leave out the beginner textbooks since you've already covered that thoroughly. We used a few intermediate textbooks at school, but frankly I found most of them underwhelming. Kanzen Master and DoAJG are the way to go from here, textbook-wise, imho.

To fix your listening skills, just... listen. NHK podcasts, news, whatever media of your choice. If you want a textbook, we did 楽しく聞こう in school and it was pretty decent. エリンが挑戦 is also a good resource, though you might find it below your level (at least you get to practice listening, if anything. Go through bonaparte's thread and just click all the links. That thread is a goldmine.

With these skills it's more "getting used to doing it" than "practicing it in a certain/efficient manner" in my experience.

i would also recommend 'read real japanese: fiction'. at your level, i think it shouldn't be too hard + some of the writers featured in there are very good, like hiromi kawakami, banana yoshimoto or yoko tawada. you get to read really well-written japanese + accompanying grammar explanations are very useful.

there are a lot of great japanese directors and films, so i don't know what are you really waiting for.

about children's books and light novels...i couldn't do it. the former are, well, for kids...and light novels are for a bit older kids and feature trivial stories with generic plots. i was bored to tears and gave up.

video games in general are a waste of time so i would recommend against that, too.

.

watch an entire anime series without subtitles and loop the audio for a month or so.

you could spend a few weeks to "expand your horizons". read good books, watch good shows, discover what interests you, etc

nadiatims Wrote:watch an entire anime series without subtitles and loop the audio for a month or so.

This...

or any other audio/drama/movie you fancy. ("in a loop" should be in bold.)

I guess I'll start reading Japanese.

Tzadeck Wrote:I always get the feeling that a lot of people on this forum jump into native material way earlier than I would recommend, but you've done the opposite! Haha.

That is the case with me. I have put off properly reading native material for as long as I could.

Tzadeck Wrote:The only thing you might be lacking in a bit is vocabulary, since you'll find that 6,000 is a bit low if you want to understand a novel for adults. And it will take you a bit of time to get used to grammar in the real world, since it will be less structured.

A vocabulary of 6,000 words has made Japanese a lot more understandable compared to anything less than 6,000. Unfortunately, it's just the beginning. I'm not there yet but I think a vocabulary of at least 10,000 will make me satisfied and productive.

Tzadeck Wrote:Also, start writing entries on Lang-8 to polish your writing and grammar production, and your writing should get less sloppy.

Writing/typing in Japanese is a low priority for me but having said that, production helps recognition. So I will use Lang-8 when I feel like it. What's the response rate of corrections? How about the existence of any elitist linguistic trolls (people who take great joy in correcting others while at the same time, belittling them for their linguistic inferiority)?

Tzadeck Wrote:And, well, do the JLPT. Start with 2, or skip right to 1.

I've never cared for the JLPT tests because I'm only learning Japanese for me as well as focusing on specific areas of Japanese, whereas those taking JLPT tests must be good in all areas.

But just out of curiosity, based on the info I provided in my first post, how would you predict I would do on the tests and what "level" (N5 to N1) would I be?

gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:Also? I can't believe you read DoIJG cover to cover. TWICE. That's hardcore, my friend.

I did read DoIJG from cover to cover twice (maybe three times) but I didn't read most of the non-Key Sentences (for every grammar, there are a few example Key Sentences and a lot of non-KS examples) so it didn't take long to read. Unless you still think that's hardcore, then well.

@nadiatims and Inny Jan

Wouldn't having a transcript be useful for something like that? I'm just wondering because I've been 'blind shadowing' the core sentences for a while and it's just recently become a regular occurrence that whenever I read a new core sentence in Anki that I've only heard before, I find myself correctly reading it! Not just that, but even the vocabulary words that weren't in focus are being firmly memorised simply by knowing and having frequently repeated the sound of the sentences. Have either of you experienced something similar by looping audio?

@Animosophy

I'm not sure why you are asking that – if something like this happens to you then it's good, isn't it?

Obviously, having a script is a huge help because it makes for easier comprehension of the audio. Then, the comprehensible audio, played in a loop, is quicker internalised, so when you come back to reading, your task is easier (the moment you recognise (meaning of) the word, you can remember the audio, which is the word's reading).

I suppose it was more of a suggestion than a question

Looping audio without a means to directly test the benefits may feel less fruitful. I had no idea whether all of my listening and repeating did anything worth its time until I could directly guage its benefits by seeing the written sentences and deciphering them.

Here's a site with anime transcripts in Japanese OP if you're interested. Doesn't look like there's a whole lot of options yet, thougj
http://animetranscripts.wikispaces.com/T...n+Japanese

It's not high priority right now but as far as listening practice goes, my first and main approach would be to re-watch Studio Ghibli films with Japanese subtitles. Japanese subtitles are a little harder to find though.

@Animosophy

the reason i suggested anime to the OP, is because it sounds like the OP has a bit of a base of 'on paper' knowledge that needs to be kicked up to the next notch by upping the ante a little.
That volume of knowledge should be enough to follow an easy anime with semi-comprehension. The only way to get that listening comprehension and intuitive (automatic) grammar ability to level up is to let your brain accept that challenge. When you loop the audio, you'll recognize more known words and understand more and more in each pass. You may even start guessing some words based on kanji/vocab knowledge and context.
Looping semi-comprehensible anime and youtube videos was a breakthrough for me.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:It's not high priority right now but as far as listening practice goes, my first and main approach would be to re-watch Studio Ghibli films with Japanese subtitles. Japanese subtitles are a little harder to find though.

http://kitsunekko.net/subtitles/japanese/

qwertyytrewq Wrote:It's not high priority right now but as far as listening practice goes, my first and main approach would be to re-watch Studio Ghibli films with Japanese subtitles. Japanese subtitles are a little harder to find though.

English: http://www.oomu.org/documents/totorosp.txt
Japanese: http://www.geocities.jp/ohmu2rko/totoro/top.html or
http://www.geocities.jp/akutamako/totoro...erifu.html

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Writing/typing in Japanese is a low priority for me but having said that, production helps recognition. So I will use Lang-8 when I feel like it. What's the response rate of corrections? How about the existence of any elitist linguistic trolls (people who take great joy in correcting others while at the same time, belittling them for their linguistic inferiority)?

If it's really not your priority, then you don't need to concentrate on this so much. Who knows though, you might find it more rewarding than you expect, and you'll likely make some Japanese internet friends this way if you post regularly. Corrections are usually make within 24 hours, even when you first start. For some reason a lot of Japanese people on the site are very generous with corrections.

At least on my page, I haven't had any trouble with linguistic trolls. People have been helpful.

Anyway, you will probably find the whole thing helpful for reinforcing nuances of grammar and vocabulary--since you will be corrected if you use a word that is a bit off, or use grammar incorrectly.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:I've never cared for the JLPT tests because I'm only learning Japanese for me as well as focusing on specific areas of Japanese, whereas those taking JLPT tests must be good in all areas.

But just out of curiosity, based on the info I provided in my first post, how would you predict I would do on the tests and what "level" (N5 to N1) would I be?

I'd say you could probably pass N3 if you took it today (which is a fairly big accomplishment, I'd say). I think you would probably fail N2 because your reading and listening skills probably aren't up to snuff. If you go to the JLPT website you can take a short test of 15 or so questions to guage your level relative to the test. Hard to tell though, because you've really done a lot of studying, you just haven't reinforced it very much.

The JLPT really only tests recognition skills--understanding text and speech, knowing vocab, and knowing grammar... so really, is it that much different from what you're trying to accomplish? Most important is understanding text, which seems to be what you're all about.

Tzadeck Wrote:The JLPT really only tests recognition skills--understanding text and speech, knowing vocab, and knowing grammar... so really, is it that much different from what you're trying to accomplish? Most important is understanding text, which seems to be what you're all about.

It also tests your ability to tell apart real words from fake words, correct readings (of words you don't have to understand) from incorrect ones, correct word usage from incorrect word usage and correct grammar from incorrect grammar. Real text mostly consists of real words used correctly with correct grammar.

Vempele Wrote:It also tests your ability to tell apart real words from fake words, correct readings (of words you don't have to understand) from incorrect ones, correct word usage from incorrect word usage and correct grammar from incorrect grammar. Real text mostly consists of real words used correctly with correct grammar.

In my experience, you get good at the first two along the way of learning to read with no additional effort. The third you also get good at eventually just from seeing the word often and getting to know it really well, but some additionally study is helpful. And as for the grammar, considering the OP's willingness to read grammar dictionaries, I think he'll have no trouble with it.

For me, at least, the JLPT worked as a motivator to study more as the test approached. I think it led me to being a better reader and listener faster than had I never taken the test, even though I might have studied some things that weren't directly necessary for reading and listening.

My next milestone in a few days will be watching My Neighbor Totoro with Japanese subtitles and looking up each and every vocab that I don't understand (and adding them to Ankidroid at the same time).

Furthermore, I will be doing the same for all of the older (pre-2000) Studio Ghibli movies, starting with the oldest. I'm starting with My Neighbor Totoro though (the second oldest) because the cast is younger and and the story is more simple than Laputa: Castle in the Sky. Laputa is next, after I get a boost in encouragement from Totoro.

This will be the first time in my life I properly consumed a Japanese product from start to finish while making an attempt at understanding everything.

My initial source of native materials will be Ghibli movies because:

1) They're children's (or at most, family) movies. Therefore, the script will not be too complicated and technical (no military, business or political vocabulary).
2) They're short (about 1 hour and a half) so it's faster to get feedback on whether I'm doing well or not. My main purpose of watching these movies is not to enjoy them but to develop my Japanese skills so I don't want to get bored on the same product (like a 20 hour video game or 26 episode TV series).
3) I'm saving the best for last. There are things that I want to do in Japanese for the purpose of fun but I want to save it until my Japanese is much more advanced. I don't really have much interest in watching older Ghibli movies but as a Japanese study tool, they are good enough in terms of entertainment and is a better option than for example, reading legal documents or reading Japanese newspapers.

As you can see, even though I have mostly stopped using textbooks (the theoretical) and moving into Ghibli movies (the practical), my approach is still very structured and textbook-like.

Vempele Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:The JLPT really only tests recognition skills--understanding text and speech, knowing vocab, and knowing grammar... so really, is it that much different from what you're trying to accomplish? Most important is understanding text, which seems to be what you're all about.

It also tests your ability to tell apart real words from fake words, correct readings (of words you don't have to understand) from incorrect ones, correct word usage from incorrect word usage and correct grammar from incorrect grammar. Real text mostly consists of real words used correctly with correct grammar.

One nice thing is that I've spotted a few typos and wrong usage of Kanji (the wrong Kanji is a typo because its reading is the same as the intended right Kanji).

A sign that I'm comprehending.