I'm on the verge of completing RTK (I'm on frame 1722), and I am 35 lessons in to pimsleur. Once I finish RTK textbooks I will finish all 90 lessons of pimsleur and some textbook work to prepare me for Core and Tae Kim. I have a couple textbooks (Japanese from Zero (3 books) and Japanese in Mangaland). When skimming through them there is a lot of phrases/words that seem really common and seem like they would be a good foundation for further study.

I figured that I might take the really common phrases and expressions and make physical flash cards. This is stuff I would consider everyday vocabulary (random numbers, what's this, what's that, my name is ryan, i'm hungry etc). Maybe a couple hundred phrases or words. I was thinking that everyday I could just grab a handful of shuffled cards and go through them until they were all mastered over time. I heard SRSing common stuff is a waste of time, I do not know the validity of this though.

I was then thinking taking all the less commonly used vocab and starting a vocab deck in anki. This would be a lot of filler vocabulary, for example there are chapters designated for rooms in the house. For example the bathroom section would have all the vocab for bathroom such as toilet, toothpaste, soap, etc. You get the point. Stuff that would be good being in the SRS. As long as I put the kanji or kana on front and english translation on back will it be ok?

So my question boils down to this: How would you go about studying from the textbooks? Do you think my idea for approaching textbook learning is ok? If not what would you do differently?

I would go with whatever process has you spending less time futzing around with resources, and allows you more time for exposure to Japanese. I'd recommend one of the following:

(1) Just start Core and Tae Kim, and skip the textbook.
(2) Use Core in conjunction with the textbook.
(3) Use the textbook until you feel like you have a solid foundation of grammar, then leap into SRSing and easy native materials.
(4) Use one of the textbooks for which someone has already built an Anki deck. Alternatively, if you sign up for a service like Skritter, they actually have vocab lists for several major Japanese textbooks (http://www.skritter.com/vocab/textbooks).

Don't fret too much about capturing the common stuff; worry more about daily exposure to Japanese. Like you say, common stuff is common. In about a year you'll have お風呂 and お腹が空いた down pat.

Absolutely go through one of the textbooks--I'd say Japanese in Mangaland, since it has a good reputation (I've never used either). They're likely to have much much better explanations than Tae Kim does for grammar, so they're worth it. Basically, just read through them, and if there are activities you can do, do them.

You can choose to SRS the vocab from the textbook, or just start with something premade like Core. I think making your own cards helps you enjoy SRSing, but the nice thing about Core is that it has sound and pictures, so it's a toss up. You can indeed SRS common words--there's no reason not to. Paper flashcards can be a nice way to reinforce that vocab, but they aren't really necessary, as you'll get them through exposure and SRS anyway.

I think it's useful to spend a couple hours in a store with textbooks and really look at each one, read the contents, read some descriptions and see if they use a language you understand and buy just one (it's tempting to buy a lot and not read them). I don't understand the Tae Kim worship. I read it a couple times and it's very useful but I'm happy I had some other textbooks that could explain the language from different perspectives. Japanese Demystified, to name one, lives up to it's name.

[s0apgun]

My textbooks are pretty useless compared to the high standards we have here at koohii

The one book I recommend is Japanese the Manga Way. It has a lot of great grammar points that Tae Kim doesn't really touch on.

Textbooks didn't work for me at all.

I did not care about any of the grammar rules or anything, it's because of those boring textbooks I completely stopped learning Japanese for 3 years.

I used the Japanese for Everyone textbook, and it was a great first step on the path to learning Japanese. Honestly, you probably won't need to SRS the vocabulary and grammar points as a good text will repeat what you've learned over the course of the textbook. Just seeing what you've learned in various contexts will help reinforce the material.

Japanese the manga way and just do some core6k. You may do some exercises from a textbook like genki etc, but doing exercises in textbooks doesn't get you far. You won't have enough exposure to the language to understand everything and no matter what, textbooks aren't fun and usually are artificial. Just get familiar with basic grammar and go on from textbooks. After you've some experience, just use the http://www.forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=11273 deck for grammar.

Going to echo Japanese: The Manga Way. I found it more interesting than Tae Kim's Grammar Guide, and also more useful in the way it breaks the language into yummy little bites.

However I am of the general opinion that most text books, such as Genki, etc. are excellent for any beginner, and you get what you pay for. While there are great free online resources, for a complete beginner, a textbook (and if possible, a teacher to help you along the way) provides the sort of structured approach which can provide a solid base understanding. Useful for using to get a foothold in a wider range of grammatical descriptions, etc.

I think that textbooks are awfully useful as a source of easy input. A beginner textbook is easier to get a toehold with than children's books or easy manga or Core vocabulary lists; good textbooks have more of the language that you would need as a tourist or a newcomer in the country (ordering food, buying train tickets, introducing yourself); and they have more of the social context and politeness.

I think that at a beginning level it's smarter to finish on recognition over production unless you need some immediate survival language. I worked through the first book of Integrated Chinese just reading the dialogues and reading passages, learning the vocab (I didn't really bother to SRS it), and not really spending any time on the exercises.

I am with uisukii on this one. I personally started with textbooks (Minna no Nihongo and Nihongo Shoho - I don't know if this one is still published). Japanese was my first foreign language and as a beginner, I needed a more structured approach to studying. Back then, I didn't have a lot of access to great resources like Koohii -- certainly we didn't have apps then

Whatever you choose- my only advice is to remember that textbooks (and/or Tae Kim's guide etc.) are only steps to get into the pool. Once you're there you'll realize that it's actually an ocean- and at some point you're going to have to just suck it up and swim.

Basically, don't try to understand everything through textbooks. Get a decent grasp on the basics from them and move on as soon as you have. I found Tae Kim's to be a good *reference* on my trip from Beginner to Intermediate.

drdunlap Wrote:Whatever you choose- my only advice is to remember that textbooks (and/or Tae Kim's guide etc.) are only steps to get into the pool. Once you're there you'll realize that it's actually an ocean- and at some point you're going to have to just suck it up and swim.

I like the analogy a lot and I also get the feeling that this is the general consensus. I think I will use the textbooks as a more of a reference rather than real studying. The good thing about Japanese From Zero is they have kana excercises to help reinforce it. I memorized all the kana before starting RTK but for not seeing it for so long it needs a little brushing up on. I will do the kana excercises, go through and take a look at any chapters I find particularly interesting and just man up and start Core/Tae Kim/Children Books etc.

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I read them all and took them in to consideration.

gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:(2) Use Core in conjunction with the textbook.
(3) Use the textbook until you feel like you have a solid foundation of grammar, then leap into SRSing and easy native materials.
(4) Use one of the textbooks for which someone has already built an Anki deck. Alternatively, if you sign up for a service like Skritter, they actually have vocab lists for several major Japanese textbooks (http://www.skritter.com/vocab/textbooks).
Don't fret too much about capturing the common stuff; worry more about daily exposure to Japanese. Like you say, common stuff is common. In about a year you'll have お風呂 and お腹が空いた down pat.

This was also some superior advice. I was thinking about selling my books to my friend and getting Japanese the Manga Way and possibly Genki I. Genki I is on the Skritter list which makes it a book I'd be interested in. Japanese the Mangaway is not.

Can you use Japanese the Manga Way as the reading guide to do the Tae Kim anki deck?

Once I reread all these posts I'm really thinking now what I should do. This is a forum and you guys are more experienced than me. I feel like once I get in to I'll be going about it differently than I expect.

By the way, (almost?) all of the Genki I and II vocabulary can be found here!

drdunlap Wrote:By the way, (almost?) all of the Genki I and II vocabulary can be found here!

that is very interesting.. thanks for the link drdunlap! Should I SRS that stuff or just use it for reference?

language learning can really be split into 2 phases, the beginner phase during which complete gibberish becomes something that your brain reacts to and attempts to comprehend and succeeds at least somewhat. The next phase is the hard trek of filling in thousands and thousands of blanks. Phase 2 is easy but takes ages. Phase 1 requires some perseverance at first. It's a bit like a sudoku puzzle in a way.
During phase one, you need some traction, like the first few numbers in a sudoku puzzle. That's where textbooks or anything else with translations come in handy as they help you establish those first words and pattern by looking at two languages side by side and making connections for the first time. Those first connections become more deeply rooted through repeated use and exposure and act as an anchor to help you slowly pick up more words and phrases.

You get better at japanese by constantly chipping away at the huge remaining unknown mass. I don't think there's much value in knowing a small amount of words or grammar deeply while the that great mass is still unknown. It's like starting a drawing by focusing on the details rather than sketching out the whole picture. You may think you're nailing the details only to discover later that your proportions, perspective etc are way off and need to be redrawn anyway. For that reason I wouldn't bother with textbook exercises and things and instead focus on getting the overall picture quickly. Accurately filling in the details later on will be much easier.

off topic, @drdunlop nice music. Are you in the games industry?

nadiatims Wrote:I don't think there's much value in knowing a small amount of words or grammar deeply while the that great mass is still unknown. It's like starting a drawing by focusing on the details rather than sketching out the whole picture. You may think you're nailing the details only to discover later that your proportions, perspective etc are way off and need to be redrawn anyway. For that reason I wouldn't bother with textbook exercises and things and instead focus on getting the overall picture quickly. Accurately filling in the details later on will be much easier.

This is very insightful information. This is the type of information that sets my thinking straight and helps me clarify my direction. Thanks a lot nadiatims.

nadiatims Wrote:off topic, @drdunlop nice music. Are you in the games industry?

Off topic part the second!
It's just a hobby for now. I considered the game industry but wanting to stay in Kansai severely limits my choices. I applied to one place a while back but no-go. One day.. one day.

PS- I'm in the restaurant business. Haha.

.

drdunlap Wrote:

nadiatims Wrote:off topic, @drdunlop nice music. Are you in the games industry?

Off topic part the second!
It's just a hobby for now. I considered the game industry but wanting to stay in Kansai severely limits my choices. I applied to one place a while back but no-go. One day.. one day.

PS- I'm in the restaurant business. Haha.

Offtopic part the third.

That's some nice music you've got up on SC. Just finished reviewing a deck in Anki while listening to it. One day for sure.