When reviewing, should I say no if I can't remember exactly how to write it, but remember the combination of characters?

Are there any suggested guidelines for the review process?

When I went through, if I remembered the story and all of the components of a character, but put them in the wrong order/placement, I still said yes, and noted the correct placement.
It seems to have worked fine for me.

If I couldn't write the character correctly, then I marked myself No. Get those early mistakes sorted quickly. It's easy to fall into bad habits over 2000 odd kanji.

See if you can somehow integrate the positions of each primitive into the story you create for the kanji.

If you cut corners early on, you'll have a big pile of red cards when you hit 2042. Best to be strict. You might speed up the process by throwing it right back in the "learned" stack, though.

For me, if I forget so much as the fact that a certain horizontal stroke has to be angled slightly upward when on the left (take the 金　primitive as a good example of when this happens), then I fail the kanji.

Something as huge as literally forgetting the ORDER of the primitives is a failure outright, and I'd really recommend that everyone keep at least that much as a minimum standard. I'm not going to fool myself ... if I were testing myself on English vocabluary, I wouldn't consider writing "synthephotosis" as a passing grade for "photosynthesis."

Now, when it comes to something as minor as forgetting exactly to what degree to "compact" certain primitives (i.e., exactly how much to squash 月 when it appears on the bottom of something else), I'm a little more lenient.

My rule of thumb: if I think a Japanese native could recognize the character for what it's SUPPOSED to be as I've written it, even if it might look slightly childish, primitive, and clumsy, then I can pass it.

I was strict about the placement and answered No. The order is important. Learn it soon and learn it well. I found that after I got used to positioning rules strong positions of primitives, it was a non issue i.e. insignificant number of failures related to positioning. Hardly any at all in the 2nd half of the book.

While I was in Japan from Oct-Nov for about 5 weeks, I did pretty much -0- RTK review because usually by the end of the day, I was totally wiped out from whatever it was I was doing at the time. (Lots of traveling. 10 cities. 2 Weeks at Yamasa. Getting 90,000 yen of travel out of a 50,000 yen rail pass. That sort of thing.)

When I got back to the US, my Clie with Twinkle that had been my major review tool died a horrible death. I've been waaaay off on my reviews as a result. I just started reviewing again a few days ago, and am now using RvTK for my reviews, once I've relearned my cards. (My logic being that the Internet won't break anytime soon... I hope...)

To get back into relearning all of my kanji again before I start clearing all of my little piles, I went back to my giant shoeboxes full of flash cards. (I'm getting to the point.)

So now how I relearn is by taking the flashcards, looking at the keyword, and then I use a brush pen I picked up in Japan to draw the kanji correctly. I find that I'm MUCH better at remembering this way than I am with just staring at the card and trying to regurgitate my story. I'm still not sure exactly why, but whatever works, I guess, since the goal is to be able to write these. Of course, I also find that using a brush pen helps my calligraphy a good deal as well. (I've been studying Chinese calligraphy for a few years now, by taking lessons from an excellent artist/calligrapher.)

So yes, if I get the order wrong, I fail it. If I can't write the character properly, I fail it. Remembering the story isn't enough for me. Close isn't good enough this time. It's going to take me longer this way on the front end, but I'm cool with that. Besides, I've already got the first 400 or so easily under my belt again, and in a few weeks I should be able to get back to the 1200 or so I was actively reviewing before I left in October. The next 800 will be tricky. I've already reviewed all 2042 once, it's just that I never managed to get that last 800 into a daily rotation before I left.

The Sailor Profit is an excellent brush pen, by the way, and you can get it in the US online. Just google it. Ink is pretty cheap, too, or you can just get the refillable ink cartridge.

I'm not that strict when deciding to hit the "no" button. I never have an occasion to write most of the rare kanji, and I don't really care if I make a mistake. I also don't care if I know the kanji but forgot the English keyword. Obviously if I don't recognize the kanji or I've forgotten the elements I hit "no". I guess it all depends on what your priorities are. If you are trying to learn the language, there may be better ways to spend your time than reviewing kanjis that you basically know.

Don't be afraid to hit the No button frequently. Be harsh about it. You have to realize, you'll only add another 7 or 8 times you'll have to look at till it's in the last stack. Compare that to Japanese kids that write a kanji dozens of times then maybe still not retain it.

I've started to be more tolerant about it. Currently I need to finish the book and there are too many revisions already. I'll go back to clicking No more frequently once I'm done.

I fail a character if I write it incorrectly (even just one stroke incorrect).

What I'd like to see is a button which would let me put that kanji in stack 1 directly.

Failing the kanji and then clicking 'learned' later isn't very helpful for these kanji as I really just want it to go to the first stack so that I'm given it again in a few days.

When I'm doing my review after failure I stick a post it note on my computer monitor to cover the kanji, so I only see the keyword, so I am essentially testing myself again (although it's in order, which makes it easier of course)

I'm pretty strict with my "no" button as well. I figure it's self study, so I'm only lying to myself if I claim I've learned a kanji when I haven't gotten the order/placement correct.
Ultimately, this learning is for my own benefit and nobody else's and I can't bear the thought of cheating myself out of learning something properly.

My general rule is to say "no" if I find ANY mistake(even if it's small) in the writing.
Otherwise, I feel like I'm cheating myself.

i say no to all mistakes, except when the mistake is on the english keyword side and i know the kanji for both, as an example things like loose, lose &fall, fell

Hi,
I got a question, and dont want to open a new thread: how can you memorize if the elements are in a horizontal or vertical order? I got a big problem remembering that.
It's not easy to integrate that into a story. Or do you have some tips`?

lanval Wrote:Hi,
I got a question, and dont want to open a new thread: how can you memorize if the elements are in a horizontal or vertical order? I got a big problem remembering that.
It's not easy to integrate that into a story. Or do you have some tips`?

Integrate into story or exposure. It also helps to know how radicals are actually placed, there is a pretty elaboarte system. For example, you know 木 will usually be in the left side as in 村 because kihen (the tree radical on the left) is very common.

Hm, it seems logical, but most stories dont even consider the order of the elements of a kanji. That alone is hard enough. F.e. parch, could anyone give an example of how to indicate the order of the elements and the direction in a story?
I'd be very grateful.

lanval Wrote:Hm, it seems logical, but most stories dont even consider the order of the elements of a kanji. That alone is hard enough. F.e. parch, could anyone give an example of how to indicate the order of the elements and the direction in a story?
I'd be very grateful.

The fire radical, when not a cooking fire, is always to the left, called a hihen. Since cooking fire has its own meaning, just remember it as fire and it shouldn't be hard. (The reason why fire is not on the left in 秋 is because fire isn't a radical in that kanji, wheat is (actually, it means two-branch tree and is called nogihen)).

The above isn't one hundred procent true, there are two kinds of fire radicals which can be found at the bottom of a kanji (rekka and renka) but since those are both at the bottom, it shouldn't confuse you much.

As for putting placement in the story, don't. Just make it a part of your image. "Put the wooden goods in the fire to patch it" and imagine someone putting wooden stuff into the fire from the RIGHT. That automatically places the fire radical on the left in your image.

I think it best to be quite strict about what you get wrong. if you cant recall it the first time even if you switch the placements of things or leave out a stroke. That way you nip bad habits in the bud quick and fast =)

I probably failed more things then necessary that way but now its cemented in my head so those habits are squished

My fail strictness is based on the stack it is in. If I nail all the elements but the placement is simply off a bit I'll most likely pass it if it is in one of the lower stacks but once I get to stack 4 and 5 it has to be completely right.

Where possible, I try to make placement part of the story. E.g., with "leak", I think of the rain ending under the flag as part of the idea of there being a leak, which works nicely since the rain radical most commonly appears on top.

However, I don't always find it possible, and in a few cases I do get mixed up with the relative placement.