I'm doing AJATT methodology, albeit not fully, and I'm lacking guidance doing all of this myself so I joined to find a community of people who could help me and hopefully, in the future, I can help them.

I've dropped my non-Japanese music and bought a bunch of Japanese tracks and albums from itunes, I'm using Tunein app on my phone to constantly listen to Japanese news and music radio, I'm downloading podcasts from itunes using the Japanese language hub, I'm watching jdrama with English subs on first, then with them off so I can listen to the dialogue more. Unfortunately, I am using Crunchyroll, so I can't exactly rip the audio.

I'm learning kana through a really good Hiragana/Katakana deck in Anki. I'm confused as to how many times a day I should be doing it. I have it set to 10 new cards a day, and usually that's 5 new characters plus with 5 review cards to help with memory. Once that rep is done, sometimes I'll review incorrect cards to help with memory. But some people online say they're doing like 100 cards and crap a day and I'm just confused as to how this works aside from doing it every day and finishing a rep. I have no clue how they manage to memorize 40 cards a day.

I can't find anything helpful for beginning vocab so I'm looking up Japanese nursery rhymes on youtube, or going to jp sites like nhk or tbs and trying to find hiragana I know and see if I can form a word. I haven't really formed many words, to say the least. However, I'm a big gamer. I have a few import games and I watch import game videos on youtube to also practice my kana. Is that a good thing?

Please help a noobie with her self study, おねがい！

I'm usually quite against textbooks past a very basic level but as you are currently at a very basic level I might suggest something like Genki or the like in order to at least create a base of vocabulary to work on. On the bright side- even if you don't want to buy the books, you can check out lists of most all of the vocabulary from Genki I and II on this study website: http://www.csus.edu/indiv/s/sheaa/projec..._main.html -- I used this as a student in college as my first year of study was 100% class and textbook.

Are you using Tae Kim's website?
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar
It's a pretty solid base of grammar as well.

With people doing 100+ cards per day- I don't know that you could say they're "learning" so many so much as simply "seeing" so many cards. Eventually anki works out the mess through repetition but, from personal experience, I don't know that I would suggest trying to rush too hard. I ended up with way too many reviews and got mentally fatigued due to trying to move too fast. Maybe I was too old for it..? Haha. It's not a race and it'll likely take a few years for everything to sink in to the point that it makes perfect sense anyway.

Most of the process is figuring out what works for YOU. As long as you're doing *something* (and not learning false information.. which should be easy to avoid as long as you keep a dictionary handy) you'll figure out what works for you and what doesn't.

Sorry I don't have too much specific advice but this forum is chock full of different users' methods and advice so take a look around! You seem to at least be attempting to move forward in some way or the other and, if you keep at it, I think you'll get there. Set goals and move forward!

PS-- Here's one man's take on the process (from this forum):
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=5110

I've never asked for any advice, and that's about the only piece of advice I can give.

I do believe in sharing resources though. You can find everything needed to learn Japanese here, from zero beginners to advanced students. The materials are very learner friendly.
http://users.bestweb.net/~siom/martian_mountain/

Here are my tips:
- Don’t worry about those 100 new cards/a day - this is not a sustainable speed.
- A more reasonable number is anywhere from 10 to 20.
- In your study you will learn: kana, kanji, vocabulary, grammar - to a greater or lesser extend in two directions: recognition and production.
- Then you will want to: read, listen, speak and write (maybe) - as you can see that’s quite a lot.
- Don’t believe that you will master Japanese in two years – only very few can claim that, which just proves that this is an exception rather than a rule.
- Make sure that your input is comprehensible.
- Make your study fun if/whenever possible.

Good luck

NaomiD Wrote:I am using Crunchyroll, so I can't exactly rip the audio.

If you are/can use Crunchyroll on your computer, you can use the audio. You can "rip" almost any audio from anywhere as long as you are using a computer. It's a simple as Audacity.

http://audacity.sourceforge.net/about/

Well, as far as reading and doing Anki reps of written material, Ajatt has a Kanji first, vocab later approach. I must say, I agree with that approach. But you can do it the other way around (after all, Japanese children learn the language, then Kana, then Kanji). The reason why I think adults should always go with reading first when learning a language is because I found it so much easier to learn a foreign language from reading native text than any other way. And, in the case of Japanese, "reading" means reading Kanji text. There's no way around that. Once you're past a basic level of children/teen stories, Hiragana just doesn't cut it for writing the Japanese language.

Without Kanji, you'll have to learn the Japanese language mostly from spoken sources, and that's pretty difficult to do (with any language, not just with Japanese). Yes, kids do it, but they're immersed in it 24/7, for many years, and they still don't have a vocab large enough to cut it in the adult world, by the time they're 5 or 6. It's when they finally learn to read that their language skills really pick up (well, some of them - a lot of people go through life never really learning their native tongue properly).

As far as learning the Kana, I have to recommend Heisig's book (which promises to teach you each syllabary in just three hours of effective study, and, for me at least, delivered on that promise), and the associated Anki deck (to practice what you learned with Heisig).

And, while the recommendation to take it easy with the new cards added to Anki is generally sound, in this case you can safely make an exception and just add as many cards as you have time for. This is because there aren't enough Kana for you to get swamped in reviews. Altogether, it shouldn't take you more than a few days to a week add all the Kana. In other words, feel free to do 20, 30 or more (as many as you have time for) kana a day. With the Heisig book's help, it's very easy to remember them.

Also, don't add more than one note/kana. Repeating the same information in two or more notes doesn't help you in Anki, it's just a waste of time. You should have one note per new piece of information (in this case, it should be an example word that contains the character; !!! it should be a card where the question is the word in romaji, and the correct answer is you writing down the word in Kana, pencil and paper in hand !!!). Anki isn't supposed to, and isn't going to, give you reading comprehension. All it will do is help you make sure you learn and remember all the characters, so that when you start practicing reading, you're not stomped by any of the rare ones. But the reading practice is what's gonna give you reading comprehension, not Anki.

To sum it up, I learned the Kana in three stages, and was very happy with my method:
1. Read Heisig's book "Remember the Kana", followed his instructions. (like I said, it takes 6 hours total, for both Kana - but I didn't do them both together, I learned the Katakana weeks later than the Hiragana).
2. Practice with an Anki deck that's based on the Heisig books (on occasion, if I forgot one of Heisig's mnemonics, I immediately went back to the book). Took me very little time and effort to do this, Heisig's method meant that I was pretty much starting reviews right away, there was no learning process. And I would rarely fail any reviews.
3. Reading practice. In my case, reading practice was done after I had learned a lot of Kanji, so I was only practicing with regular Japanese text (which is mostly Kanji). But there's no reason why this shouldn't work the same with pure Kana text. I would recommend that you keep the text as easy as possible (if you don't mind spending 20 bucks on a couple hours' worth of reading, Yomuyomu Bunko Level 0 is a book that contains five very basic stories written in pure Kana - it's made for total beginners; but there are also plenty of free Japanese children's stories online, written in Kana only). In general, it's a good idea to read what you understand. Not much point in going through gibbrish text. It will reinforce your knowledge of Kana, but it won't give you actual reading comprehension.

I wouldn't recommend constantly listening to podcasts and news articles at a beginner level, unless you can understand over 3/4ths of it. I'd put more emphasis on anime or drama that you have already watched with English subs. Something where the context is immediately retrievable in your mind. This way your not just listening to noise. You can also rewatch videos you have already seen with Japanese subtitles (like from Kitsunneko).

NaomiD Wrote:But some people online say they're doing like 100 cards and crap a day and I'm just confused as to how this works aside from doing it every day and finishing a rep. I have no clue how they manage to memorize 40 cards a day.

"Success is that old ABC. Ability, breaks, and courage." -Charles Luckman
"Practice rather than preach. Make of your life an affirmation, defined by your ideals, not the negation of others. Dare to the level of your capability then go beyond to a higher level" -Alexander Haig

Review 1~5 or learn 1~5
Use momentum to continue reps or,
Take a break (have fun; do something important)

With time, the impetus to continue reps increases.


"Japanese All Day Every Day" Framework
1.Fun (watch, listen)
2.Focus on what you can do now
3.Kana
4.Kanji
5.Reading

3,4,5 interchangeable

My advice:
Once you get the gist of study methods, try to make your self study as independent as possible. [see Sauzer's post] [research is a form of procrastination]

Thanks for all the help and advice.

I got Remembering the Kana and went through it. I finished the katakana section tonight. Honetly, I've probably spent 10 hours today studying Japanese, between reading websites, Anki reviews, and going the katakana section of Remembering the Kana. I feel discouraged because my reviews didn't go too well and the katakana I learned today is barely a vision in my brain at this point.

All I can do is keep on practicing but it's easy to feel discouraged.

Quote:My yoga teacher reminds us that water eventually carves a rock, drop by drop, and that with consistent practice, our bodies will also change, slowly but surely. Day after day, the rock looks the same: solid and unyielding. And then—a small change. Maybe a big one. The brain is capable of progress.

-Eve Kushner, Article
(Writer at Joyokanji.com, Japanophile)

Here's one I learned the hard way. After the initial period of "how do I learn?" browsing, don't read learner forums and pages! Or at least severely limit your time on them. There's so much material and conjecture out there, you can spend years reading ABOUT studying, which easily cuts into your actual studying time! I personally have this and similar sites blocked using FireFox extension LeechBlock, only coming when I actually absolutely need something. Your personal willpower may vary but this helped me A LOT.

Edit: and this most definitely includes AJATT! Especially AJATT!

I agree with Sauzer. There's a lot of ink about how to best study, and pretty much half of it contradicts the other half.

One thing you should seriously consider is--and I know this is tantamount to heresy, but--taking classes. Especially if you have access to a school dedicated to teaching Japanese. That will really help.

I just wrote a comprehensive article on this same topic, so check my site if you want to know more.

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:I agree with Sauzer. There's a lot of ink about how to best study, and pretty much half of it contradicts the other half.

One thing you should seriously consider is--and I know this is tantamount to heresy, but--taking classes. Especially if you have access to a school dedicated to teaching Japanese. That will really help.

I just wrote a comprehensive article on this same topic, so check my site if you want to know more.

I read your article, Ken, and it was really informative.

What do you consider studying though? Right now I'm using anki to test myself on hiragana and katakana and writing the ones I don't remember multiple times. It's not the funnest way, but it works in a way. I was going to try and read Japanese children's manga for practice afterwards, but you're like,"don't bother reading/watching stuff you don't understand."

NaomiD Wrote:I read your article, Ken, and it was really informative.

What do you consider studying though? Right now I'm using anki to test myself on hiragana and katakana and writing the ones I don't remember multiple times. It's not the funnest way, but it works in a way. I was going to try and read Japanese children's manga for practice afterwards, but you're like,"don't bother reading/watching stuff you don't understand."

Well, everyone's going to have a different take on what constitutes "studying," and what the best approach is. Which is why I'd say you should be cautious when listening to anyone's advice, even my own.

Even what I've done, and what I'd recommend to others, changes year to year. What I would have told you five years ago isn't what I'd tell you today, so that's not good. Five years from now, who knows? What you want to avoid is running around madly chasing one method or another. Also, doing everything on your own, even with support from communities such as this one, may not withstand the years it's likely to take. Which is one reason I think classes are a good idea. (Language school is far better than college though, by the way.) They give you a tested, structured program, with support, and hold you accountable. Plus, you're talking to real, live people. That's good, right?

As for your specific studying, I think writing out the kana multiple times is a great idea. You'll probably have it down in a couple of weeks. Not sure I'd Anki it, but that's cool. And I'm certainly not against any reading or watching movies that you want to do. All exposure to the language is valuable, and if you enjoy it, that's fantastic.

My point was rather that you're better off studying actively rather than passively. Of course you won't understand it at first, which is why you'll want to look stuff up. That's active, and that's what I'd consider "studying." Reading, also, by it's very nature, is more active than watching or listening, since you have to make it happen. That book's not going to read itself.

Passive input is fine, but you can watch billions of hours of movies and not learn very much. If you've got time to burn, no big deal either way. But if you want to make steady progress, you'll benefit from a structured program. And at the risk of repeating myself, I'd say be careful what you buy into. Everything looks shiny and wonderful on the internet.

Anyway, thanks for reading my site. Drop me a comment there too!

I followed a pretty loose version of AJATT to start off with too. Here's what I thought worked:

1. SRSing sentences (strongly recommend subs2srs for that though - manually 'mining' stuff takes far longer for an inferior result)
2. Replacing music with Japanese music - it doesn't actually help much, but at least you can talk about Japanese music with Japanese people, and if you decide to study from music/lyrics later that's great, and really simple pop-songs are easily comprehensible, if you're into that sort of thing.
3. Buying lots of books and manga. 'Before you can pwn books you must first own books' is probably the best thing written on that website - I spent a year living in Japan without any Japanese books because 'well I can't read it anyway so why buy it?' ... well no shit, of course you can't read it then.
4. No grammar study. Flicking through a grammar website once in a while does help clarify things that I already basically know, but otherwise going fine without it.

What didn't work:
1. MCDs.
2. Listening to radio constantly - it's just noise.
3. Watching exclusively without subtitles. Waste of time if it's significantly above your level - you neither enjoy the show nor learn anything about Japanese. Watching Card Captor Sakura, Pretty Cure, Jewelpets, or some slice-of-life/vacuous harem show - sure - no subtitles. Watching ... I dunno, Psycho Pass or Kaiba or something - don't bother.
4. Heisig first. I think learn a good chunk of Japanese first - then you can read stuff at your level (i.e. children's books/manga, which all have furigana) before getting stuck in the kanji timesink.

Take what works for you and jettison then rest.

Also, grinding SRS and textbooks (and even incomprehensible Japanese) for 10 hours is of course not sustainable and going to make you crash. You're not going to get there faster if you do a study-hard crash-hard kind of program. Isn't there something in Remembering the Kana about taking a day-long break between sections or something?

Some good stuff in this thread.

I have to say, I agree about the whole Heisig-first thing. And I say that as someone who was formerly a huge Heisig advocate. There's a lot of focus out there on becoming literate, and of course that's a very important thing. But something I've found is that putting too much emphasis on reading and writing early on can really, really be detrimental.

There's a lot of "oh, but learning styles differ" and other such nonsense. That's true, except for the fact that language is an aural thing. To paraphrase Idahosa in his recent article on fluentin3months (a site I usually despise, but that's another topic), one doesn't learn to paint by hearing, or to play a musical instrument by watching. You wouldn't walk into an art class and say "No, I'm an auditory learner. Let me listen to you talk about how to paint." So being a "visual learner" is irrelevant to learning a foreign language, because you're learning a spoken thing.

OK, so language is sound, not ink. Writing is a way to notate the spoken language (usually a formalized version of it), and it's a great thing, but speech is what language is (note the root of the word, langue, meaning tongue). What I've found out through studying Chinese, as well as discussing things with other learners and tutoring people in English, is that the written language really gets in the way if you learn it before you can really know the language well.

You filter things through the writing system, and unless that writing system is IPA, it's a very inaccurate representation of the language. It's "good enough," but it doesn't show you everything that's going on phonetically. It's why my English students always pronounce the 'e' in 'message,' and it's why my American classmates in Taiwan can't get the ㄖ ® right in Chinese, and it's why some people never figure out pitch accent in Japanese. IMO, it's the reason for all accent problems. It isn't so much that the person's native language interferes, it's that they're relying too much on writing and not nearly enough on sound. They hear their target language in just enough resolution to understand what people are saying, but not well enough to know that they aren't making the right sounds themselves. It's why my Israeli roommate in college, who had a very obvious accent, swore up and down that he spoke just like an American. He couldn't hear the difference, because he hadn't learned to hear English well enough.

So my recommendation is to stick with mimicking audio as much as possible until you've reached basic fluency. It isn't a popular idea on this board, but if you want to avoid pronunciation and accent problems as much as possible, and make it so that Japanese people understand everything that comes out of your mouth without having to strain, it's what I recommend doing.

Learn basic articulatory phonetics (it's not very difficult at all), and learn some about the phonology of your target language (Japanese). Mimic audio recordings, preferably done at a natural pace, not slowed down, with natural intonation, the way people really speak. That eliminates most textbook recordings, by the way. Use techniques like chorusing and shadowing, or even Idahosa's "Flow-verlapping" as he calls it (not my cup of tea, personally). Pay really close attention to intonation, because it can make or break your accent. The reason we understand Jackie Chan despite his obviously bad pronunciation is that his rhythm is really good. His intonation is nearly always the same as it would be if an American were speaking. So anyway, develop your ear for the language and your ability to accurately pronounce the language at normal conversational speed, and then work on reaching a basic level of fluency. Maybe something like Mike Campbell's Mass Sentence Method, I dunno. After that, literacy actually isn't all that hard to develop because the language is already in place in your brain.

Now after all that I will say that in learning Japanese, I do look at the written sentences that I'm learning. However, it's just looking at them. Referring to them. I make no effort to learn them, and I only really do it to check if I'm not sure which sound I heard. I suspect that will happen less often the more my ear gets attuned to Japanese.

Like I said, these ideas aren't the most popular around here, because there's a big focus on literacy. But literacy without knowing the language can really screw you up.

In my experience, posting this sort of thing tends to generate a lot of...discussion (I think that's the word). I'd be happy to discuss it, but in the interest of not derailing a thread where a newbie is asking for advice and probably wouldn't appreciate being drowned in debate, let's do it in another thread, or via PM.

No, I find your post insightful and helpful. However, I'm confused on many of the techniques listed.

I have no clue what chorusing, shadowing, "Flow-verlapping", or intonation even are.

NaomiD Wrote:No, I find your post insightful and helpful. However, I'm confused on many of the techniques listed.

I have no clue what chorusing, shadowing, "Flow-verlapping", or intonation even are.

You're better off taking JapaneseRuleOf7's advice and finding something and sticking with it. The more time you spend/waste on online forums and the internet reading about varying approaches is less time actually doing something with the language. You could spend a year actively organizing and optimizing your methodology, providing yourself with a great approach... or you could spend that year building up vocab and studying as you are and be miles ahead of where you would be, superior methodology and all.

There is a time-tested and fail proof means to achieving proficiency with a foreign language: time and consistency. In the beginning, almost anything will have a high benefit, provided you keep doing it. It's a little like sprinters: the best methods are for when you're at the stage when a fraction of a percent of improvement can mean staying ahead of the rest, but until that stage, nothing can replace the simple fact that in order to get there, you need to run. Lots.

Can't argue with getting started. But I can argue with the idea that good methods should wait until later. Unfortunately, when it comes to pronunciation and intonation (intonation essentially refers to rhythm and changes in pitch), once bad habits get cemented, they're very hard to undo.

I have friends who have reached extremely high levels in Chinese, who are doing MA's and PhD's in Chinese in Taiwan and are very much near-native in listening comprehension, reading, and writing, who still have trouble with tones and speak Chinese with American English intonation. It's extremely grating on the ears, and Taiwanese people often don't understand what they're saying, especially one guy. They know it, but at this point it's extremely hard to fix. That 'one guy' has been working with an accent coach for years and still has a really awful accent.

So by all means, get started. You don't have to go with what I recommend 100%. But I would suggest finding out what those things are (Google is your friend) and utilizing them as you go, and early on. I don't know any method better than chorusing for improving your accent, and Flow-verlapping is just one guy's adaptation of chorusing that also uses recording software, but in my opinion it's too much hassle. Shadowing is good for improving fluency. Whatever you do, just make sure you pay close attention to the sound of the language, because that's what a language is, after all.