His is the first name mentioned when Japanese movies come up in a conversation with Nihon- or Gaikoku- jin. I've watched a few of his movies and can't recall being bowled over. Please explain why he is so wonderful. I am happy to be proven wrong so I can enjoy his canon. I think he's had an interesting career being that he started as a comedian. And did he really make that art work too?
If anyone feels that certain other names in whatever media arena are overly worshiped, please feel free to vent or ponder and then be enlightened by the masses.

You either enjoy a movie or you don't. *shrugs* I really enjoyed a lot of what I have seen from Kitano. "Dolls", in particular. Being aware of popular names in respect to Japanese cinema is helpful in searching for related and similar works- and there is their historical impact on the genre- but aside that I don't really follow the politics of it all, so I couldn't tell you who is overly worshiped, unappreciated, or what have you.

Which movies of his have you seen and was there anything in particular which you were disinterested in or interested in, throughout your viewing of them? That may help in providing something someone more of a cinema buff can give you potential feedback with.

My favorite movie he acted in was actually Kikujiro. I wasn't crazy about Outrage or Hanabi. I think Sonatine was the best I've seen that he directed. It's not Kitano, but my favorite violent yakuza film so far was Takashi Miike's remake of Graveyard of Honor.

I liked some of the stuff in his version of Zatoichi quite a bit.

I've seen all his movies. He directed sixteen so far.
His last good movie was Zatouiti, then he degraded.
'Outrage' and 'Outrage Beyond' are well... to put it mildly... outrageously crappy.

It's difficult to pinpoit art, but some of his best films are good enough to be worth watching.

I liked あの夏、いちばん静かな海 and 菊次郎の夏.

[RawToast]

buonaparte Wrote:I've seen all his movies. He directed sixteen so far.
His last good movie was Zatouiti, then he degraded.
'Outrage' and 'Outrage Beyond' are well... to put it mildly... outrageously crappy.

I've only seen Outrage (as it is on Netflix) and thought that was just watchable, but nothing special. I guess I'll have to check out some of this older films.

yes, he's overrated, but at least he's better than sion sono. blame cannes and venice film festivals for both.

in general, japanese cinema these past two decades seems to be in sharp decline.
there are no original and fresh art filmmakers, like thailand's apichatpong weerasethakul. hirokazu kore eda showed big promise with his first two films, but then the quality of his work suddenly dropped, reaching nadir in 'air doll'.

there are also no inventive genre directors, like joon ho bong in korea. miike has some
interesting experiments, but he's filming way too much trash. and in terms of directorial skill, he's way inferior to bong.

so, in light of all this, it's not too bad to have kitano, who at least has one very good film
(sonatine) and a few solid ones(hana bi, a scene at the sea).

Dude had a stroke and isn't all well in the head these last few years. Give him a break.

Japanese cinema isn't great in general, probably a reflection of the 2 lost decades.

Maybe the Internet has made me completely ADHD, but in general I find japanese movies too slow moving.

As a fan of Japanese cinema and Kitano's works (a good amount not all), its a bit disheartening to read this thread. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

@kurohachi, I don't think it should be disheartening to read criticism. I rather enjoyed some of Sion Sono's work, for example. Starting the thread has motivated me to watch Sonatine again and maybe check out Kids Return and try to find old comedy work by Two Beat. On top of that I'm eager to see the Thai director that Umetani mentioned.

@Umetani Can you recommend some films from the 80s/early 90s? Most of what I have seen was made before or after this time.

@Buonaparte What did you think about "Kitano's surrealist autobiographical trilogy": Takeshis', Glory to the Filmmaker!, and Achilles and the Tortoise?

The jury prize, Cannes' third top award, went to Kore-eda Hirokazu's gentle switched-at-birth drama "Like Father, Like Son."

I'm curious to see this one. I personally didn't hate Air Doll, but I did recognize it was his nadir

Well, most people I have talked to, whether it's Japanese learners or Japanese people themselves really don't seem to know much about Japanese cinema other than Miike, Kurosawa, and Sion Sono. After that they think it's just a bunch of crappy horror films and Godzilla movies.

That's just not true though. If you dig deep you'll find bunch of good directors and good movies that have nothing to do with Godzilla or horror crap.

Realism Wrote:Well, most people I have talked to, whether it's Japanese learners or Japanese people themselves really don't seem to know much about Japanese cinema other than Miike, Kurosawa, and Sion Sono. After that they think it's just a bunch of crappy horror films and Godzilla movies.

That's just not true though. If you dig deep you'll find bunch of good directors and good movies that have nothing to do with Godzilla or horror crap.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

His movies might be overrated but the guy is a legend in Japanese entertainment. He basically created an entire genre of Japanese comedy/TV and he's had a 30 year career that is still going strong. When you have that kind of clout people pay close attention and so regardless of how good his stuff is it'll be "overrated" by some.

Culture probably plays a part in this too. I mean, some people think Bruce Willis, Schwarzenegger and Stallone are overrated now but if you grew up watching their movies (in the 80s) then you'd understand better why they're as famous as they are.

Here's a random list of a hundred or so Japanese movies someone thought were good:
http://www.foreignfilms.com/country.php?id=15

I'm curious if the people who saw fit to declare Japanese cinema bad have even seen half of them.

umetani666 Wrote:miike has some
interesting experiments, but he's filming way too much trash.

Mind giving a few examples of Miike's films that you consider trash? I've heard people refer to pretty much everything in the Universe as trash, to the point where it means absolutely nothing unless explained a little.

Are you calling the horror genre trash?

Oh, Musashi movie, sweet. I would have put a few more oldies, but thanks Stansfield123.

I think I've seen almost half of those movies on that list. They are the movies that are on most best-of Japanese cinema lists. don't think anyone really is saying all Japanese movies or horror are bad. I think people here want to see Japan make more great films and it's okay to have high standards.
I would like to see recommendations that aren't on all the best-of lists.
What are some good horror besides Dark Water and Ringu (both same author)? What are the films that inspired these genre classics? I think One Last Call was a fun Miike piece of trash. The guy makes a lot of movies and I get the feeling that sometimes he's just trying to fund himself or maybe just showing his versatility.
I enjoy Shunji Iwai, the movie Picnic is great and I just saw it last weekend twice.
I'd like to see more 80s films that are entertaining like Bird People of China.
I like Koohii Jikou and Marebito. I like movies that have texture like Lucrecia Martel's films. Asano, Kubozuka.

Stansfield123 Wrote:Here's a random list of a hundred or so Japanese movies someone thought were good:
http://www.foreignfilms.com/country.php?id=15

I'm curious if the people who saw fit to declare Japanese cinema bad have even seen half of them.

I've seen all of them. And many more. But I don't say that Japanese cinema is bad in general. There are some very good movies on the list, and some that I would consider crap: Ringu, Gojira, Death Note, etc.
There's no objective yardstick to measure what movie is good or bad, it's always a matter of personal preference, education, wisdom, etc.

As to Kitano - 11 good movies, 5 bad. So he is not so bad after all. But he is a much better actor than director.

I'd say Japanese cinema is underrated and little known in the West.

My favorite is Most Extreme Elimination Challenge show which is an English dub of Takeshi's Castle show from the 1980's. I don't think they even bothered to check the Japanese script when they dubbed it but I thought the off-the-wall English commentary was absolutely hysterical when I used to watch it in the US.

oops

tashippy Wrote:@Umetani Can you recommend some films from the 80s/early 90s? Most of what I have seen was made before or after this time.

sure. i don't know your tastes but these would be my picks:

80's

seijun suzuki's taisho trilogy(zigeunerweisen, kagero-za, yumeji) - these are not that known in the west, but are higly regarded among japanese art buffs. they are mostly mystery or ghost stories done in style that i would describe as 'relaxed surrealism'(?). thematically, they would fall into ero-gruo nonsense category. really unique stuff.

the emperor's naked army marches on - it's about a ww2 veteran that's the epitome of badass(or just plain crazy). you have to see it to believe it. it's also very funny.

typhoon club - some highschoolers get stuck in school due to typhoon storm. it's like 'stand by me', but more somber.

grass labyrinth - this is great introduction to shuji terayama and it's only 40mins long.

dogura magura - yumeno kyuusaku via toshio matsumoto, who made my favorite japanese film, 'funeral parade of roses'. it's a mind-bender, if there ever was one.

some of the more famous ones from 80's are 'tampopo', 'ballad of narayama' and 'tetsuo', but i assume you are familiar with them.

90's

maboroshi no hikari/after life - both by hirokazu koreeda, both great. i bet michel gondry and charlie kaufman watched 'after life' over and over.
koreeda also has a documentary called 'without memory' about a guy who lost his short-term memory. it's like 'memento', but non-fiction.

labyrinth of dreams(sogo ishii) - this is adapted from yumeno kyuusaku, japan's foremost surrealist. but it's actually pretty tame and easy to follow. asano is great as mysterious bus driver and visuals & directing is perfect. 'august in the water' by the same director has some mesmerizing scenes, too, but is generally more cryptic.

march comes in like a lion - a girl goes to visit her brother in hospital who lost his memory due to some accident. he doesn't recognize her, and she introduces herself as his wife...you'll have to watch the film to see what happens next. this movie basically started the whole japanese independent cinema movement in the 90's.

cure by kurosawa is also great, but you probably watched it.
nobuhiro suwa made '2/duo' and 'm/other' in the 90's, but this is already getting too long...

if you're interested in that thailand guy, i would recommend 'syndromes and a century', which is a nice illustration of buddhist philosophy through cinematic means.

Stansfield123 Wrote:Mind giving a few examples of Miike's films that you consider trash?

dead or alive 2 & 3, ichi the killer, zebraman 2, one missed call, city of lost souls, izo, mpd psycho, etc.

of course i don't consider horror genre trash. no genre is trash per se. horror is actually one of my favorite genres and i think miike's 'audition' is one of the best modern horrors.

also, i don't think anybody was saying japanese films were bad. on the contrary. but if you take a look at the 60's, for example, when japan had some truly groundbreaking directors and films, and compare it to how things are now...well, it's pretty obvious.

tashippy Wrote:I would like to see recommendations that aren't on all the best-of lists.

I don't like those lists either, if you go by those lists then you will miss out on a lot of Japanese cinema.

But with the internet today, it shouldn't even be hard finding any Japanese film that's more obscure.

Here are just some of the films I enjoyed:

13階段
School Day for a Pig
Adrift in Tokyo
Hazard
鉄道員
Borderline
人のセックスを笑うな
Any film from　男がつらい series
明日の記憶
Su-Ki-Da
害虫
Pornostar
あしたの私のつくり方
The Human Bullet
歩く人
殺人狂時代
剣
竜二
The Clone Returns Home
The Witch of the West is Dead
鮫肌男と桃尻女
Samurai Assassin
Dear Doctor
Eternal First Love
Parade

These were all just random films I watched, didn't even know anything about them. And they all turned out to be decent or really great. And most of these random films I pick all turn out to be good. So obviously there are tons of good stuff other than just Miike or Kurosawa. You just have to dig for them.

buonaparte Wrote:I've seen all of them. And many more. But I don't say that Japanese cinema is bad in general. There are some very good movies on the list, and some that I would consider crap: Ringu, Gojira, Death Note, etc.
There's no objective yardstick to measure what movie is good or bad, it's always a matter of personal preference, education, wisdom, etc.

Education and wisdom are objective yardsticks. And there are some others, like quality of filming, acting, directing.

I think well made movies that offer a good plot and raise intelligent issues are good, and poorly made movies that offer a predictable plot and dabble in clichés are bad.

After that, personal preference can come into play in many ways, sure. You may disagree with the aesthetics of a movie, disagree with the ideas being presented, expect a different level of sophistication. But you should still be able to recognize that it's a well made movie with some intelligent ideas, even if you hate how it looks, what it says and how it says it. For instance, even though I hate almost everything about it, I still know that Natural Born Killers was a brilliantly written and made movie (please notice how I stayed away from the hack Leni Riefenstahl example, never dropped her name once - oh wait...).

umetani666 Wrote:

Stansfield123 Wrote:Mind giving a few examples of Miike's films that you consider trash?

dead or alive 2 & 3, ichi the killer, zebraman 2, one missed call, city of lost souls, izo, mpd psycho, etc.

of course i don't consider horror genre trash. no genre is trash per se. horror is actually one of my favorite genres and i think miike's 'audition' is one of the best modern horrors.

also, i don't think anybody was saying japanese films were bad. on the contrary. but if you take a look at the 60's, for example, when japan had some truly groundbreaking directors and films, and compare it to how things are now...well, it's pretty obvious.

It's not obvious to me. Here's a few Japanese movies I think are as good and original as any movie anyone made in the last 20 years:
Hara Kiri: Death of a Samurai
13 Assassins
Tokyo Sonata
Spirited Away
Ghost in the Shell
Princess Mononoke
Paprika (could've picked several other Satoshi Kon animes, really)

Please, state the obvious and tell me why they're not.

As far as the Miike movies you listed, do you consider graphic violence trash? That's the only thing I can think of that they have in common. Some of them also have poor plots and don't say or accomplish much, sure, but not all.

Uh, I probably watch more movies from Japan than from any other country right now. Some active Japanese directors from the past ten years that I really like besides Miike, Kitano and Sono Sion:
-Yamada Yoji: you can't really go wrong with his movies! have yet to see a bad film by him
-Tsukamoto Shinya: no words needed; the man's a legend
-Mitani Koki: one of the most beloved movie directors in Japan and every single film he's involved in is great. "Welcome back, Mr.McDonald" is probably my favorite, but I quite enjoyed last year's ステキな金縛り - A Ghost of Chance.
-Yamashita Nobuhiro: "Linda, Linda, Linda"; "Drudgery Train"(if you like Bukowski, you'll love this film); "Tennen Kokekko"; "My Back Page" - a young director with an incredible filmography so far. I expect a long career.
-Koreeda Hirokazu: He's Japan's contemporary Ozu. "Still Walking" is imho a modern version of "Tokyo Story". "I wish" was great, as was his TV-Drama "Going my Home".
-Wakamatsu Koji: Another one of those directors who can do no wrong. "Go, Go Second Time Virgin"; "United Red Army"
-Miyazaki Hayao: he is Ghibli.
-Mamoru Hosoda: He's not Miyazaki Hayao yet, but he may get there.
-Katsuhito Ishii: "Taste of Tea" and "Funky Forest" are two of my favorite films. You've never seen anything like "Funky Forest".
-Kurosawa Kiyoshi: I got to know him after I saw Ring, so the first films I got were his horror classics like "Cure", "Charisma" or "Kairo". If you like Japanese horror films, you probably know his films. "Seance" was a great little horror film. He's proven that he's great in non-horror genres with "Bright Future" and "Tokyo Sonata", and last year he made the TV-Series "Shokuzai"; worth a watch if you're missing his horror movies.
-Toyoda Toshiaki: Blue Spring, 9 Souls, Hanging Garden, Monster's Club.
-Hiroki Ryuichi:He has shot Pornos, Indie-Movies and has recently become a major commercial director who's still doing great work: Vibrator, It's only talk, Love on Sunday, April Bride
-Obayashi Nobuhiko: House, 転校生, ふたり
-Matsumoto Hitoshi: Symbol, Sayazamurai - All three films he's shot so far were unique, well-made and highly entertaining. Could become a major director in the future.
-Sabu: Monday, Drive, Unlucky Monkey.

None of the above director is shooting trash and with the exception of Wakamatsu Koji, they're well-known directors in Japan. I can think of few countries with such a variety of great movie directors.

I could list further notable directors, but I either don't like them that much or haven't seen enough movies by them yet. Other movie directors that come to my mind:
-Nakashima Tetsuya: Memories of Matsuko, Confessions. I'd watch anything he makes; I just don't believe that he's mastered his craft yet.
-Nishikawa Miwa: Dear Doctor, Dreams for Sale; I need to see more of her films.
-Naoko Ogigami: Kamome Shokudo, Megane. Loved both.
-Ishii Takashi: Gonin is one of my favorite Yakuza-movies.
-Satoshi Miki: Adrift in Tokyo, Jikou Keisatsu, Atami Sousakan; his work always brings a smile to my face.
-Lee Sang-Il: Hula Girls, Villain. Good Japanese mainstream. Just not my style.
-Suo Masayuki: I've only seen "Shall we Dance?" and "I just didn't do it". Both are near perfect examples of what mainstream cinema can be like.
-Iway Shinji: All about Lily Chou-Chou, Swallowtail Butterfly, Hana & Alice. A good example of "artistic" Japanese mainstream movies. Out of his movies, "All about Lily Chou-Chou" is my favorite.