Currently, I am mining sentences from Genki I and II to begin learning vocabulary and basic grammar. I have seen alot of people talking about their "vocab" decks on here. What does this actually mean? A word with a translation on the back?
Basically I am interested in how everyone is learning vocab, especially the "successful" learners.

Some of us do a word with a translation on the back.
Others do a sentence with a translation on the back (possibly with a single word bolded/underlined to show the focus).

The Core2000 and Core6000 decks are good pre-made vocab decks, but can be pretty dry for some people.

I have never used Anki. I'm currently:

- Listening to audio files for words while reading kanji versions and translations (like vocabulary-by-yomi.html)
- Printing words with furigana and translations on paper
- Creating audio lessons with shell scripts
- Using rōmaji versions of words as input in a type training application
- Reviewing two kanji compounds by hiding one of the two kanji (like two-kanji-deletion.html)

Okay so, is this a good idea?

Mine sentences from Genki/Tae Kim for grammar
Add single words with no sentences to SRS

At first I thought the sentence method was flawless, but now I think that I could probably get the "sense" of most words from extensive reading/listening.
When I look at people like ta1234123 (or whatever) who have basically achieved fluent comprehension and see they did it mostly through pure vocab decks and immersion, it makes me reconsider spending so much time adding sentences.
So, since I'm still a noob and haven't really seen the benefits of sentences yet (1 week in lol) is it fair to assume I can enter context-less words into my SRS and pick up their "true" meanings through immersion? I'd really appreciate an answer on this.

I'd just use something like Core 6000 instead of collecting sentences or vocabulary items manually. Many Core 6000 lists (like https://sites.google.com/site/ankinihongo/home/kore or http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=9762) also include audio files or furigana.

lauri_ranta Wrote:I'd just use something like Core 6000 instead of collecting sentences or vocabulary items manually. Many Core 6000 lists (like https://sites.google.com/site/ankinihongo/home/kore or http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=9762) also include audio files or furigana.

Thanks for the useful link. I've printed out some of the new iKnow core order for study.

I can't for the life of me figure out how to import the TSV file into anki correctly, though. I don't suppose a shared deck yet exists with this new Core order in place?

As far as vocab, I'm officially back to basics: Whenever I'm reading along and come across a word I wanna remember, I take out my notepad and pencil, and add the word on three columns (one for the meaning, second for the Kanji, third for the Kana). I keep the notepad in my pocket at all times.

Whenever I have a little free time at work, I go over the words I added (starting with the latest, and get as far back as I have time for). If I can, I also write the Kanji, if I can't, I just picture it in my mind. The thing looks like a dirty rag at this point, but that's because I find myself whipping it out far more often than I start up Anki (even though I have access to Anki too, pretty much every second of my day).

It is important to note that I keep the volume low. I'm only adding words that are absolutely essential towards my ability to read whatever I'm reading (I spend hours a day reading manga and stuff on the Internet, and the number of words I actually mine is often less than ten). That's why this works. It's only a tiny part of my learning, which is focused on reading, not drilling vocab.

I doubt drilling large amounts of vocab works very well, because of the lack of context.

Stansfield123 Wrote:I spend hours a day reading manga and stuff on the Internet, and the number of words I actually mine is often less than ten

So, to clarify: your method is for when you're at an advanced level and already know most of the vocab, right?

Hirakana Wrote:Okay so, is this a good idea?
So, since I'm still a noob and haven't really seen the benefits of sentences yet (1 week in lol) is it fair to assume I can enter context-less words into my SRS and pick up their "true" meanings through immersion? I'd really appreciate an answer on this.

When you say you're looking for an answer, keep in mind what you'll get is just one person's opinion on their OWN experience with a method. Maybe it carries a bit more weight if they have results to brag about, but the point is, its subjective.

Personally, I think see sentences as a brute-force way of doing things and my own experience suggests its slow and inefficient. From my own experience, I'd say stick with vocab, but then I can definitely imagine someone who's REALLY motivated by sentences and in that case, I can't really say no to that either. It's a tough call to make.

For my vocab deck, I do core6k production style with a self-written english definition -> japanese word. The attitude around this forum seems to say production is slow and difficult and an english definition is inadequate to capture the sense of a japanese word. I agree in a sense, but I think I've found a way around it in writing my own definitions. Whenever I'm confused about the meaning of a word, I look at example sentences. It becomes clear very fast what the general use of the word is, and that experience gets put into the prompt on my cards. The prompt is what I am going to remember, and so the more vivid the definition I can come up with, the better. As for the slowness, well, I can't disagree with that either. It takes time. Sometimes I'll get 2-5 synonyms coming to mind per definition. You try to make them as distinct as you can, but some words just aren't different enough. In that case I'll put the synonyms up on the front of the card, so I don't get on the wrong track.

I think that recognition cards are easier to gloss over, but they are often faster, and there's definitely an argument there. I am probably going to switch over to recognition after core6k for the sake of speed. I'll be using the 'core plus' deck. Still, I like using production and will probably use it for my self-added cards in the future. If you're going to go the vocab route, I'd advice trying both and seeing which you like best.

Stansfield123 Wrote:I doubt drilling large amounts of vocab works very well, because of the lack of context.

Well, yes, but it's also a divide and conquer kind of approach. I can 'spell out' pretty much an entire newspaper, but I do have to stop to look up many words to refresh the meaning.

The language itself is a natural SRS and the words are already sorted by frequency (surprise, surprise, the more common the word, the more you'll see it).

I might have use for Anki at some point, when I'm learning words so infrequent, I can no longer rely on the spaced repetition that the natural language offers.

shinsen Wrote:The language itself is a natural SRS and the words are already sorted by frequency (surprise, surprise, the more common the word, the more you'll see it).

Couldn't agree more.

Let me add this as well:
1.
Language is a system of interdependent elements: sounds (phonemes, tones, pitch accent, stress, rhythm, intonation), words (combinations of sounds that carry meaning), phrases and sentences (combinations of words), and texts (spoken and written, combinations of all the above). Only TEXTS carry personally relevant real life meanings and EMOTIONS.
2.
EXPOSURE: {new text (audio+written)} divided by {minute times hours times days}
Hours and days should be counted from the first moment you start learning, sleep and anything else INCLUDED.
The text can be measured in pages or words or minutes (silence and music excluded).

Silty Wrote:

Stansfield123 Wrote:I spend hours a day reading manga and stuff on the Internet, and the number of words I actually mine is often less than ten

So, to clarify: your method is for when you're at an advanced level and already know most of the vocab, right?

Not necessarily. I certainly wouldn't call myself advanced, especially when it comes to the writing system. You can read manga at a low intermediate level, with the help of furigana and/or the English version. I don't mine out every unknown word, just a few that seem common.

And, at an advanced level, studying vocab by itself becomes entirely unnecessary. When you know most of the vocab, that one unknown word on the page tends to stick without any further effort, just from coming across it a few times. (in case your curious where I'm getting this from, since I'm not advanced in reading Japanese yet: it's from learning other languages)

shinsen Wrote:The language itself is a natural SRS and the words are already sorted by frequency (surprise, surprise, the more common the word, the more you'll see it).

SRS is not about word frequency. It helps you learn by showing you material you don't know well more often, not by showing you stuff that's frequently occurring more often. In many ways, it does the exact opposite of a natural environment. That's how it helps you learn the infrequent stuff (which is why, if you're trying to learn a body of material quickly, you get it done much faster with SRS than immersion).

SRS has its uses (helped me immensely with RtK, about a thousand Core sentences, and the Tae Kim example sentences; it can also be used with Sub2Srs). In other words, if it's something you absolutely MUST learn (and all those things I listed, the Jouyou Kanji, a basic Japanese vocab, basic grammar, are absolutely necessary to know, if you wanna progress fast in Japanese). And in general there are many things that you can learn much faster by studying than through experience. SRS serves to make studying more efficient.

But it's not a universal solution to every problem. For instance, I don't think it's a good idea to feed massive amounts of out of context vocab into an SRS, and expect to learn the language efficiently.

been learning it by using it in a conversation or just talking japanese in my mind.. I will challenge myself in my mind, I'll think of some english phrase and try to translate it in japanese.. I guess this helps a lot.. of course, I have a dictionary on my phone for reference.... xD

Okay so I decided to go the Core 2k route. I'm using the "default" deck, not Nukemarine's. Is this okay? I started a couple of days ago, so it's not too late to restart. I tried Nukemarine's but I couldn't really get into it. If it gives you much more than the "default" deck then I might switch back.

Hirakana Wrote:Okay so I decided to go the Core 2k route. I'm using the "default" deck, not Nukemarine's. Is this okay? I started a couple of days ago, so it's not too late to restart. I tried Nukemarine's but I couldn't really get into it. If it gives you much more than the "default" deck then I might switch back.

The most important aspect (IMO) is whatever you feel comfortable with enough to use on a daily basis. Consistency is the most important factor at play.

You can always try out other methods to see what feels best at that time. At the moment, if the "default" deck is serving it's purpose, I would encourage you to stick with it. If at a latter point, you feel that the deck is no longer doing what you want it to do, you can always try something else.


Even the most efficient method is meaningless if you don't feel motivated to use it, right? May as well go with what works and try something else when it no longer does the job. As long as you are learning, you are learning.

Stansfield123 Wrote:But it's not a universal solution to every problem. For instance, I don't think it's a good idea to feed massive amounts of out of context vocab into an SRS, and expect to learn the language efficiently.

I'd agree. I view any SRS as more of a way to get a "foothold" on a word you're seeing crop up in the native materials that interest you. I use SRS (currently Skritter) to practice writings and familiarize myself with a wide range of terms, but I don't feel like I've actually "learned" the word until I've seen it crop up in context multiple times, and have gotten a feel for how it's used in a range of sentences.

Your goal at the beginning should be to learn basic sentence structure, massive amounts of vocab, and the written language (particularly kanji). I don't think it matters so much what starter deck you use (Core, Nukemarine's, etc.), so long as you find it useful and somewhat enjoyable. If you don't find it enjoyable, try a different approach, such as deciphering very basic Japanese articles on LingQ, or using a textbook like Genki.

Plenty of people have used Core2k or whatever Core in the original smart.fm order and found it valuable.

However, -if- having many unknown words in the sentences is bothering you or making it hard to remember words, then you should switch to nukemarine's deck. The 'optimized' in the 'optimized order' is making it have the least number of unknowns for each card.

You also shouldn't have to 'start over'. It should be possible to suspend or delete the rest of the deck you're using, add the optimized deck to your collection, suspend or delete the cards in that deck that are duplicates of ones you already have, and then go on from there. It'd take a few taggings and mass actions of course.

uisukii Wrote:The most important aspect (IMO) is whatever you feel comfortable with enough to use on a daily basis. Consistency is the most important factor at play.

gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:I view any SRS as more of a way to get a "foothold" on a word you're seeing crop up in the native materials that interest you.

killua Wrote:I think you got it wrong. I started a little less than two weeks ago and I'm gonna do the last ~300 in a couple of days

from http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid195014

zurisu Wrote:But I'm adding 50 cards/day right now

from http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid194974

​I have a busy schedule recently, but regardless...

How do some folks add that many new cards? What's the ratio of new cards to recommended number of reviews? Do you do that many reviews?
If I do a few days of over 25 new cards I find that I have too many reviews piling up for words I don't know comfortably.
What is the difference between when you review for recognition and production? Is it in the cards you're using, or the way you use them, and how do you view the purposes of each method?
I think it makes sense to not focus entirely on production if you're learning new words, because they won't enter your production vocabulary until you have had many exposures in different contexts to the word.

Has anyone used Anki with a focus on collocations?

Sorry, this is sort of a string of questions. Feel free to answer just one or whatever you feel like.

I don't have any work or school obligations right now, so I'm free to spend as many hours on Japanese as I need to, which vocabulary-wise usually amounts to about a solid 75 minutes/day in Anki clocked time. However, time spent repping is sometimes twice or even three times that amount since I need to take frequent breaks to keep my sanity.

Here's my own experience so far; maybe you can use it to make ballpark estimations for other scenarios:

-Adding 44 new cards/day evened out to about 470ish reps due every day.
-Since jumping up to 50/day, the reps are evening out around 550.
(That makes daily reps around 11 times the new card amount.)
-My retention rate this month for both young and mature cards is 79%

[It should be noted that I'm in the final 1,000 words of Core6k, so vocabulary is significantly easier since I can guess many of the readings on my own after being exposed to 5,000+ words already.]

To answer some of your other questions,

Quote:What is the difference between when you review for recognition and production? Is it in the cards you're using, or the way you use them, and how do you view the purposes of each method?

I only do recognition cards for vocab. There's a few reasons why.
1) I already get writing practice with my Keyword->Kanji RTK reps.
2) You don't have to grapple with synonym madness, and there are a TON of synonyms in Core6k at least
3) Reading, not writing/speaking, is my primary Japanese goal, so practicing with recognition only makes sense. I know that supposedly if you do production, recognition will be "in the bag" as well, but that hasn't been the case at all with my RTK production deck. I can go Keyword->Kanji wonderfully, but the reverse (recognition) is terribly hard for me.

I'm still a Japanese noob, but if you have any further questions, feel free to email me. (This goes to anyone.)

Thanks, Zurisu.
After I wrote that post, I had a pretty productive and speedy Anki session. I think almost every day my approach to studying changes, and today I just needed to fly through them. Spending too much time trying to will myself to know the words goes against the ideals that RTK was founded on*.
I should know better that, as Buonaparte points out (perhaps inspired by Krashen?), language acquisition requires exposure. Simply memorizing the words from Anki won't do (even with SRS).
So I'm not going to stress about Core, but I will A) stop relying on multitasking and 'stolen moments' (i.e. do anki on my phone while walking the dog); these should be bonus moments and for the bulk of it I should simply sit down and zone in on reviews B) Spend more time with native material, conversation and even talking to myself and C) somehow get time management to a point that my school load will get done even if I spend an hour reading shosetsu (I tend to be a perfectionist when writing papers or reading for school).

*and you're right about those pesky synonyms. It sometimes screws up my production, or what for me is probably somewhere in between recognition and production.

Oh, yeah, I change my approach to tackling Anki all the time. Sometimes I break it up into pre-defined chunks, sometimes I muscle through as much as I can in one go, sometimes I give myself mini-goals and mini-rewards, sometimes I just lightly sprinkle it through the day and then tackle the remainder in a clump at the end (that's what I'm doing today). It's all about adapting and getting it done any way you possibly can.

One particular tactic that helped me for a solid couple of weeks was to turn off the "Show remaining card count during review" option, then I played a game where I picked a target number (ie get the Due pile down to 350) and tried to get to that number without peeking. Once I thought I met the goal, I would check, and if I was right I got a break (a five minute Freecell break =D ). But if I was wrong, I had to keep going to the next goal straight away (ie I'd notch it down another fifty words to 300). It was fun for a while, but when the punishment got to be more of a dreaded thing than a motivation, I dropped it.

Another thing that has helped has been to add the majority of new cards at the END of my repping session. When new cards are sprinkled throughout your due cards pile, it bloats your rep number significantly when you just want to get them to zero already! So since I took (most of) the new cards out, I get to zero a lot faster, and then I feel so good that I completed my daily goal that adding the new cards at the end is a lot of fun! And since this deck is optimized, learning them in chunks together (I add 10 at a time with 10-min breaks between so they can marinate long enough for an accurate step 2 grading, then add the next batch) is really helpful.

But me, I'm the kind of learner who likes to focus on one thing at a time (it was a real chore to do both Tae Kim and Core concurrently), so I'm focusing on finishing up Core6k as fast as I can before moving on to the next phase of native media immersion. It just makes sense to me personally Even though that means my media consumption is very low right now. But since I'm only 3 weeks away from finishing, it's not a big deal! And it's gonna feel soooo great to just read manga all day while my Core reps FINALLY slowly recede into oblivion B-)

I just recently stopped doing Skritter after using it solidy for 30 minutes a day for 9 months. When you add in practicing kanji that I had failed, and looking at kanji definitions, it actually added up to closer to 45 minutes to an hour. That's time right now I'd rather spent reading. But I'm glad I did it. I was able to practice writing 250-300 words/day, which greatly enhanced my kanji knowledge.

tashippy Wrote:I should know better that, as Buonaparte points out (perhaps inspired by Krashen?), language acquisition requires exposure. Simply memorizing the words from Anki won't do (even with SRS).

I like that thinking. I'm currently experimenting with using Anki more as a word list - adding words I've recently encountered but don't know, practicing them a little as recognition cards, then dumping the whole thing and starting over. Keeping a huge active vocab list is a pain, and, I suspect, is leading me to accumulate a bunch of words I don't actually need.

I write down the words in my notebook, takes a good 15 minutes. Brute force it into my brain, takes about 30 minutes or more depending on the difficulty. Put them into anki and study them. I have a 97-99 retention rate for young-mature. I don't know, brute might not work for you though.

Here's how I brute force.
Each line looks like this

Politics - せいじ 政治
Airplane - ひこうき 飛行機

I look at the kanji and think of the hiragana for it, not the English meaning. After I memorize the hiragana for it I then memorize the English word. I use the knowledge of the hiragana to make structure for the English word so that takes seconds.

For order it's pretty simple. Study one word, to to the second, before the first word falls out study it again. Keep going repeating the hard ones, then repeat the easy ones maybe after ten words. Then anki all of them! Takes me about an hr to have all of these pre studied and in anki.


After all of this brute forced, enjoy 2-3 second recall rate for the cards, if your doing recognition. I spend about 4-7 per card because I want to hear the whole audio of the sentence. I changed my core deck to have kanji in front. Than picture, reading, English word, sentence and its translation on the back

Like I said this wont work for everyone. I've been doing this ever since I was young. Either it was for math formulas, science terms, or Italian vocab. This allowed my memory to be great with these terms, but for how long? About 1-2 days before more than half are gone. This is why anki has helped me so much.

Edit: I also want to start studying production, still finding the most efficient way to do it. But I do know ill be using my expo board more.