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#26
tiantian Wrote:You can argue otherwise but that's how we Chinese make the comparison. Maybe because the referred crime of Germany and Japan occured in the same war at the same period of time, which is about 90+ years after the opium war.

And how could we possibly forget the Opium War, which marked the start of our modern history full of humiliation and helplessness. I still remembered how much stress i felt when we were taught about the history of this period when everything went wrong for China. In fact, there is this monument in the Tiananmen Square with a series of sculptures depicting that episode of our history. But with the return of Hongkong, and most importantly, without new issue arising, the old bitterness mellowed down over time. Time heals if and only if you allow it.
Ok, if closeness in time is your main concern, then why hasn't the damage of the Japanese atrocities healed more for you than more recent atrocities against the people of China? Btw., if you're in China, I understand why you would rather not talk about that. But I still don't understand why you would lash out at modern Japan.

Japan is nothing like the Empire that occupied China. Why is modern Japan your concern? Modern Japan at least made SOME effort to apologize, even if not to your satisfaction. And, more importantly, anyone is free to speak up about the issue, and many Japanese, and foreigners who are in Japan, do. Let's compare this to how the more recent atrocities committed by China's government are dealt with: there is no contrition, there is no acknowledgment they happened, there are laws forbidding any mention of Communist atrocities.

Take a moment, compare modern Japan's government to China's leadership. Given how much worse your government is, how can the behavior of the Japanese PM be on your mind at all? Why would you waste a second of your time worrying about Japan? You face so many much, much bigger problems than Japan's inadequate apology. Sure, you're forbidden from lashing out against Communism in China, and I understand anyone who will refrain from doing that, but why actively help the monsters who rule your country rally China behind them, in hatred of Japan (a much better country)?
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#27
because the chinese people are being whipped up into a nationalistic fervor by their government, which is the only real adult voice in that country. they are told to hate japan and so they do... nevermind that as you rightly pointed out, great britain was really the greater villain of the last 100 years.

this is because the chinese gov't stands to benefit economically from villainizing japan, whereas it has nothing to gain from a quarrel with britain.

thank you for further illustrating my point with your perfect example.
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#28
Stansfield123 Wrote:Ok, if closeness in time is your main concern, then why hasn't the damage of the Japanese atrocities healed more for you than more recent atrocities against the people of China? Btw., if you're in China, I understand why you would rather not talk about that. But I still don't understand why you would lash out at modern Japan.

Japan is nothing like the Empire that occupied China. Why is modern Japan your concern? Modern Japan at least made SOME effort to apologize, even if not to your satisfaction. And, more importantly, anyone is free to speak up about the issue, and many Japanese, and foreigners who are in Japan, do. Let's compare this to how the more recent atrocities committed by China's government are dealt with: there is no contrition, there is no acknowledgment they happened, there are laws forbidding any mention of Communist atrocities.

Take a moment, compare modern Japan's government to China's leadership. Given how much worse your government is, how can the behavior of the Japanese PM be on your mind at all? Why would you waste a second of your time worrying about Japan? You face so many much, much bigger problems than Japan's inadequate apology. Sure, you're forbidden from lashing out against Communism in China, and I understand anyone who will refrain from doing that, but why actively help the monsters who rule your country rally China behind them, in hatred of Japan (a much better country)?
If you break the TV in your own house, your parents won't be happy about it but they won't call police. But if your neighbor rushes in and break everything, what do you think your parents would do? Do you expect your parents to be as forgiving to that neigbor as to you? Maybe, just maybe it is easier to reconcile with your families than with someone else? Mao Zedong, Deng Xiaoping, Chiang Kai-Shek, they did some cruel things to Chinese but Chinese think they are one of their own and treat them as such.

We are not very happy with our government but calling it "monster" might be an exaggeration. Unsatisfaction, yes. Hatred, not really. There is no doubt Japan is better, in that it is better developed. But it isn't our country. And we can't expect Japan to look after our security and interest. In fact, history told an opposite story. Most of us trust Xi more than Abe.

I am not very avid to defend my own government or lash on Japan here because there is no point doing that. History will play itself out regardless what we say here. The opinion of each one of us has been formed long ago and is very unlikely to be changed here through talking.
Edited: 2013-12-21, 2:43 am
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#29
raharney Wrote:Yes, and let's hope the Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indians, and Tibetans too get over their unpleasant experiences of past Chinese aggression less than 50 years ago. (China backed the Pol Pot regime to the hilt, remember.)
Sure.
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#30
At the moment I don't have anything specific to say, except that I would like to commend you all for such an interesting discussion. We're at the end of page 2 and surprisingly, everyone is still talking in a civilized way!!!

Let's keep it up Smile
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#31
tiantian Wrote:And how could we possibly forget the Opium War, which marked the start of our modern history full of humiliation and helplessness. I still remembered how much stress i felt when we were taught about the history of this period when everything went wrong for China. In fact, there is this monument in the Tiananmen Square with a series of sculptures depicting that episode of our history. But with the return of Hongkong, and most importantly, without new issue arising, the old bitterness mellowed down over time. Time heals if and only if you allow it.
Lol. As if the opium war was the cause of all China's troubles. How come an nation the size of China wasn't even able to defend itself. Where was its navy? Industry? Innovation? Competent leaders? China had been in a decline long before intrusions from the west. China stagnated while Europe rose but that history is not as palatable I guess.
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#32
nadiatims Wrote:
tiantian Wrote:And how could we possibly forget the Opium War, which marked the start of our modern history full of humiliation and helplessness. I still remembered how much stress i felt when we were taught about the history of this period when everything went wrong for China. In fact, there is this monument in the Tiananmen Square with a series of sculptures depicting that episode of our history. But with the return of Hongkong, and most importantly, without new issue arising, the old bitterness mellowed down over time. Time heals if and only if you allow it.
Lol. As if the opium war was the cause of all China's troubles. How come an nation the size of China wasn't even able to defend itself. Where was its navy? Industry? Innovation? Competent leaders? China had been in a decline long before intrusions from the west. China stagnated while Europe rose but that history is not as palatable I guess.
Navy, industry, innovation, competent leader, it seems that CCP has at least done something to answer that question.

Pure size doesn't help. A fat lamb can't protect itself from a wolf. In fact its size only makes itself all the more appealing to the preyer. Every Chinese learned it from that episode.
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#33
dtcamero Wrote:because the chinese people are being whipped up into a nationalistic fervor by their government, which is the only real adult voice in that country. they are told to hate japan and so they do... nevermind that as you rightly pointed out, great britain was really the greater villain of the last 100 years.

this is because the chinese gov't stands to benefit economically from villainizing japan, whereas it has nothing to gain from a quarrel with britain.

thank you for further illustrating my point with your perfect example.
You are welcome.
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#34
raharney Wrote:But how is the Japanese PM visiting Yasukuni Shrine any different to the Queen of England visiting Westminster Cathedral on Poppy Day, the day when past British imperialist aggression is openly celebrated.
Poppy Day is for remembering members of the armed forces who died in the line of duty, many of whom didn't exactly have a lot of say in whether they joined the armed forces or not, so while I'd certainly also criticise our imperialist attitudes, I don't think that's really the best comparison.

I don't have a problem with the Japanese PM visiting the shrine, but then I've never seen the point in people apologising for stuff they didn't actually do, especially on behalf of a whole country for something in the past. It doesn't apply in this case, but it seems especially odd in cases where it affected no one living, to me it always seems like it's only about political point scoring in those cases. What is more constructive is to learn from the past (for everyone, not just the people from the particular country, pretty much any country can and has done awful things, or might in future), and make sure people accurately understand what happened, with true openness about it (I felt fairly resentful when I discovered there had been African involvement in the slave trade, which had been totally omitted in the many lessons we'd had about it at school - did they not trust us to understand that slavery was wrong if they told us that, or were concerned we'd think that it somehow minimised our countries' role in any way whatsoever? The truth is more important than politics). It's generally better to judge individuals than some hypothetical collective (hence my objection to raherney's Poppy Day comment, I dislike some aspects of the military but that will not stop me remembering the individuals who died).

I respect anyone who genuinely wish Japan to apologise, that's fine, especially if it can be in a constructive way (perhaps museum exhibits to remember and teach about what happened), but sometimes an apology doesn't really help, and some of the people asking for one don't really care as such about getting one anyway (is there any point asking for an apology if you're unwilling to forgive at all, I wonder?). But I've seen a lot of really nasty anti-Japanese sentiment on the internet, that was blatantly just down to racism (not that it's only directed at Japan, or that some Japanese people don't act like that too).
Edited: 2013-12-22, 7:33 am
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#35
tiantian Wrote:Navy, industry, innovation, competent leader, it seems that CCP has at least done something to answer that question.

Pure size doesn't help. A fat lamb can't protect itself from a wolf. In fact its size only makes itself all the more appealing to the preyer. Every Chinese learned it from that episode.
You're not answering the question. I'm talking about the past not the present. Just face it china was technologically backwards. Its rulers were complacent, often corrupt, resistant to reforms, and generally too slow to adapt to changing world conditions.

Btw I'm pretty sure the single biggest killer of the Chinese people is in fact the ccp, to the tune of 50 million or so. Did you learn that in school too?
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#36
nadiatims Wrote:
tiantian Wrote:Navy, industry, innovation, competent leader, it seems that CCP has at least done something to answer that question.

Pure size doesn't help. A fat lamb can't protect itself from a wolf. In fact its size only makes itself all the more appealing to the preyer. Every Chinese learned it from that episode.
You're not answering the question. I'm talking about the past not the present. Just face it china was technologically backwards. Its rulers were complacent, often corrupt, resistant to reforms, and generally too slow to adapt to changing world conditions.

Btw I'm pretty sure the single biggest killer of the Chinese people is in fact the ccp, to the tune of 50 million or so. Did you learn that in school too?
Sorry I didn't realize your were actually expecting a particular answer.
-Lol. As if the opium war was the cause of all China's troubles.
-Never said that. I said it marked the start of our modern history full of humiliation and helplessness. Intrusion from the outside was only half of the cause.

-How come an nation the size of China wasn't even able to defend itself.
-Pure size doesn't help. How come a fat lamb can't protect itself from a wolf?

-Where was its navy? Industry? Innovation? Competent leaders?
-We had none then.

-China had been in a decline long before intrusions from the west. China stagnated while Europe rose but that history is not as palatable I guess.
-True. Actually we were facing crisis from inside as well as outside then. Our own vulnerability led to the intrusion from the west and Japan, which contributed to our furthur vulnerability, kind of like a positive-feedback system. BTW, the vulnerability shouldn't have justified the intrusion.

-Btw I'm pretty sure the single biggest killer of the Chinese people is in fact the ccp, to the tune of 50 million or so. Did you learn that in school too?
-No i am not aware of it but i am glad to see someone so familiar with our history. Would you point me to the source?
Edited: 2013-12-22, 12:05 pm
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#37
We'll you can start by googling the guy on your bank notes.

Some say he is responsible for 78,000,000 deaths.

Of course you won't be able to access half these sites presuming you live in china.
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#38
Here's one for you:
http://www.secretchina.com/news/12/07/02/457395.html
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#39
nadiatims Wrote:Here's one for you:
http://www.secretchina.com/news/12/07/02/457395.html
let me rephrase, would you point me to some credible source?

"被中共捧为祖师爷的毛泽东曾填词一首《沁园春·雪》,藐视历代帝王,秦皇汉武、唐宗宋祖,乃至于成吉思汗,统统不在他眼中。"

I personally wouldn't be too serious about an article starting with this. It's more like a tabloid style article.
Edited: 2013-12-22, 12:36 pm
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#40
Try this one then:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong

I don't think you'll trust any source that doesn't match what you learn in school. But outside of china, the facts of Mao, Great Leap Forward, cultural revolution etc are well known because this information is not suppressed.
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#41
On the subject of Chinese censorship and the "Great Fire Wall"

Suppose I wanted to discuss the events of the Tianenman Square Massacre with the average mainland Chinese people. I live in a Western country so if I needed to search for information all I have to do is Google it and read wikipedia. However, all or most of the information I read is unavailable from Chinese people.

In this situation, how are we (Chinese people and me) supposed to have a healthy and productive debate when one side is missing key information? It's like debating with holocaust deniers except they have the info (about the holocaust), they just ignore it to suit their holocaust denying agenda.

Another question: now that I have typed "Tianenman Square Massacre" on a public forum, does this raise red flags among the Chinese censorship authorities, getting their attention? I like tiantian. He's not as rabid as the other Chinese apologists I've seen and I would be sad if the Chinese censorship police arrested him and send him to reeducation camp.
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#42
nadiatims Wrote:Try this one then:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong

I don't think you'll trust any source that doesn't match what you learn in school. But outside of china, the facts of Mao, Great Leap Forward, cultural revolution etc are well known because this information is not suppressed.
Thanks for the link. It makes a good read. And here is another very informative entry on wiki about Mao.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong

Mao is a very controvertial figure even in China. We were tought in school that he did a lot of good things as well as a lot of terrible things, a 60-40 split more or less. Now and then there would be some highlighted articles appearing on our mainstream news websites about the "re-evaluation" of Mao. I never paid much attention though. There are a lot of talented and brutal generals and dictators in Chinese long history, Bai Qi, Qin Shihuang, Kublai Khan, Nurhaci just to name a few, with Mao being the most recent in the line. That's my impression of him.
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#43
qwertyytrewq Wrote:On the subject of Chinese censorship and the "Great Fire Wall"

Suppose I wanted to discuss the events of the Tianenman Square Massacre with the average mainland Chinese people. I live in a Western country so if I needed to search for information all I have to do is Google it and read wikipedia. However, all or most of the information I read is unavailable from Chinese people.

In this situation, how are we (Chinese people and me) supposed to have a healthy and productive debate when one side is missing key information? It's like debating with holocaust deniers except they have the info (about the holocaust), they just ignore it to suit their holocaust denying agenda.

Another question: now that I have typed "Tianenman Square Massacre" on a public forum, does this raise red flags among the Chinese censorship authorities, getting their attention? I like tiantian. He's not as rabid as the other Chinese apologists I've seen and I would be sad if the Chinese censorship police arrested him and send him to reeducation camp.
Thanks for your concern. I am not in any danger. Not that i am aware of.

It's true that we have a lot of restriction but a little knowledge about computer really goes a long way. Goagent and Freegate are the two free proxy softwares used widely in China to completely circumvent the GFW and they are dummy-proof. Even my grandmother who is a buddhist once used it to check on news about Dalai lama. Of course the availability of the proxy softwares doesen't make the GFW less evil. However, I would say that most information on internet is accessible to a Chinese with a little extra mouse-clicks if he or she is really interested to find it out.

Unfortunately, most of us lack the patience and nerve to carefully examine every ugly scar of our own country. Among those scars, the self-inflicted ones are most embarassing to us Chinese and tend to be ignored by us, while at the same time, they are scrutinized by the foreigners, and even used to trivialize or justify the hurts the western countries and Japan caused China. Hopefully we Chinese can become more objective over time.
Edited: 2013-12-23, 10:11 am
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#44
Tiantian, do you now understand why some find chinese demands for apology/reparations from the japanese laughable? The regime that invaded china no longer exists and it killed a lot less Chinese than the ccp has in more recent history. Japan at any rate has apologised and paid huge amounts in reparations and was occupied by the US after having most of its cities flattened. Why don't chinese demand apologies/money from ccp for the suffering it has and still causes? Torture, imprisonment, murder of loved ones, theft of land etc etc.

And what good did Mao do exactly? "Unify the nation" you'll no doubt answer, but he did so by force, by murdering dissenters. CCP essentially declared war on its own people. "Achieve a socialist state"? China is thriving now precisely because it rejecting Maoist ideas. There is well known graph showing the rise in China's GDP after Deng took over and introduced free market (capitalist) reforms. So please do tell what Mao did that makes up for his murdering of tens of millions of his own countrymen. He is probably the single biggest killer in human history and that's really saying something.
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#45
Tiantian, are you really Chinese Tongue? I only ask because the way you write leads me to believe (based on seeing similar, very convincing 'trolls' on other sites like Reddit) that you are actually not a Chinese person but are pretending to be one. Go back and read through your posts and pay attention to the native-like control of phrases and wording combined with some very odd and out of place grammatical mistakes. I am quite familiar with the way Chinese people of various skills write English as a second language, and your style really stood out to me the more I re-read your posts.

Forgive me for questioning you so bluntly (!), but I thought it appropriate to raise this since you ostensibly are espousing the thoughts of a Chinese person.
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#46
Guoguodi Wrote:I am quite familiar with the way Chinese people of various skills write English as a second language, and your style really stood out to me the more I re-read your posts.
There are no Chinese who write proper English? Well, that's racist, and usually I'm the one who's called racist around here. Big Grin
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#47
toshiromiballza Wrote:
Guoguodi Wrote:I am quite familiar with the way Chinese people of various skills write English as a second language, and your style really stood out to me the more I re-read your posts.
There are no Chinese who write proper English? Well, that's racist, and usually I'm the one who's called racist around here. Big Grin
First this isn't funny. Second you're deforming his words. Guoguodi is talking about the linguistic interference a source language cause in a target language production, which happens no matter the ethnic group (for example with non Chinese people born in China using Chinese as a first language). That said I have no opinion about Tiantian's style of posting. You have just projected a racist theory on a linguistic problem. Merry Christmas.
Edited: 2013-12-24, 5:35 am
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#48
Not if a person is fluent, like tiantian seems to be. And that "interference" is mostly noticeable in speech, not in writing. I'm not the one who questioned his "Chineseness" because of his writing style, so don't blame it on me.
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#49
toshiromiballza Wrote:Not if a person is fluent, like tiantian seems to be. And that "interference" is mostly noticeable in speech, not in writing. I'm not the one who questioned his "Chineseness" because of his writing style, so don't blame it on me.
I'm only blaming you for what you said. Linguistic interference is noticeable in every production (written, oral...). Open any book on interlanguage, it's well documented. Look, I'm not a bad guy, and you're probably a nice guy, but even if you were racist, you shouldn't reduce complex linguistic issues to some outdated ideology that has nothing to do with the matter at hand.
Edited: 2013-12-24, 7:25 am
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#50
Guoguodi Wrote:Tiantian, are you really Chinese Tongue? I only ask because the way you write leads me to believe (based on seeing similar, very convincing 'trolls' on other sites like Reddit) that you are actually not a Chinese person but are pretending to be one. Go back and read through your posts and pay attention to the native-like control of phrases and wording combined with some very odd and out of place grammatical mistakes. I am quite familiar with the way Chinese people of various skills write English as a second language, and your style really stood out to me the more I re-read your posts.

Forgive me for questioning you so bluntly (!), but I thought it appropriate to raise this since you ostensibly are espousing the thoughts of a Chinese person.
Interesting point. What I have also noticed is that assuming he is a China-born Chinese person whose second (or third) language is English, his English is a little too good yet at the same time, his "imperfect" grammar is slightly unconvincing (IE. it is possible he is pretending to have imperfect grammar).

In any case, until further evidence (if any) appears, then my spider-senses will continue to tingle but I will not act on it.

toshiromiballza Wrote:
Guoguodi Wrote:I am quite familiar with the way Chinese people of various skills write English as a second language, and your style really stood out to me the more I re-read your posts.
There are no Chinese who write proper English? Well, that's racist, and usually I'm the one who's called racist around here. Big Grin
Well I don't think you're racist. Actually you're worse than that: you set up strawmen (logical fallacy)! Big Grin
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