Edit: cleaned up

I've spent the last few days reading up on verb conjugation, and I decided to make a spreadsheet that'd allow me to practice verb conjugation easily, and common auxillary verbs.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?...sp=sharing

For anyone at a similar level to me, the following websites pretty much demystify Japanese verbs. The speadsheet will only be useful when all conjugations are completely understood. Rule #1 on SuperMemo: "Do not learn if you do not understand."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_verb_conjugation
http://rcl.pliable.us/J-verbs.html (reinforced what I learnt on the wikipedia page)
http://homepage3.nifty.com/park/aspect.htm (expands on "te iru")
http://translate.google.com/ (I'd sometimes try and reproduce grammar points on google translate to check understanding)

^ those all took me about 3 full days to get my head around. I can't think of a more time efficient approach so that's why I'm recommending studying verbs this way in particular. The only challenge in studying this way will be in practicing verb conjugation soon enough before you forget the information and have to start again.

Anki deck of 501 verbs: https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/3166114005 (admittedly, I don't use this yet. I spend too much time doing grammar and general vocab, which inc. verbs). Still, here are all the godan verbs in it that end in -iru/-eru

Godan -iru verbs: 散る 入る 走る 要る 限る 切る 参る 混じる 握る 知る
Godan -eru verbs: 臥せる 減る 捻る 帰る 滑る

Adding a small “(godan verb)” to the flip-side of the cards will help in remembering their proper conjugations.

This removes all the guesswork involved in memorising what group a certain verb belongs to, unless they're auxillaries. For example, the very first card in the deck is -たがる, which has a very particular (but common) use explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiderative_mood#Japanese

Animosophy Wrote:^ those all took me about 3 full days of eat/read/play/sleep. I can't think of a more time efficient approach so that's why I'm recommending studying verbs this way in particular. Grammar guides seem way too slow when you can cover everything just like that. The only challenge in studying this way will be in practicing verb conjugation soon enough before you forget the information and have to start again.

I think doing song lyrics with rikai-chan is faster. you learn conjugation and readings and meanings. but whatever floats your boat.

Definitely more fun, but I can't imagine it being faster unless good old fashioned reading was too boring.

Time spent on verb conjugation alone in a single comprehensive swoop would solidify understanding more than multitasking I think. Besides, readings is what core 2k/6k is for.

I suppose in theory, learning multiple things together paints a broader picture of the language as a whole at an earlier point, but at the cost of fragmented and shallower understanding. I want to really know each component of grammar, hence the spreadsheet, but yeah I think it depends on what peoples' priorities are too (and how they learn).

Another resource to help with this could be:
http://www.japaneseverbconjugator.com/

One downside (possibly major) at the moment it seems to be that both the search input function and the related conjugations appear to be restricted to ローマ字. Though if you had the kanji stem, it could be pretty useful.

Animosophy Wrote:The remaining guesswork should just involve memorising what group a certain verb belongs to. That's why I'd suggest creating a new field in the above deck called "Group" to categorise each card (group 1 (v5), group 2 (v1), irregular and auxillary). For example, the very first card in the deck is -たがる, which has a very particular (but common) use explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiderative_mood#Japanese

Man I'm tired.

I'll have to see if I can find a way to rewrite that section on the wiki later; one mistake that I've corrected over and over again on this forum is with -garu. Some people are under the impression that -garu is just the general way to use -tai forms with people other than yourself, which couldn't be further from the truth. -garu is used only in a very specific situation -- when the person (which can even be yourself in some cases) is *showing* that they want something, and usually showing it repeatedly. In most cases you want to use something else, like たいと思う, たいと言った, たそうだ, たいみたい, たいでしょう, etc. As long as the -tai is followed by something that indicates uncertainty or that you got that information somehow, it's fine to use with other people.

Thanks, I didn't consider there might be online conjugators.

This website seems to have an option to see kana/kanji: http://www.sljfaq.org/cgi/verb-inflect.cgi

yudantaiteki Wrote:-garu is used only in a very specific situation -- when the person (which can even be yourself in some cases) is *showing* that they want something, and usually showing it repeatedly. In most cases you want to use something else, like たいと思う, たいと言った, たそうだ, たいみたい, たいでしょう, etc. As long as the -tai is followed by something that indicates uncertainty or that you got that information somehow, it's fine to use with other people.

Oh man, maybe I was wrong to trust Wikipedia. Thanks a lot for clarifying its usage.

Starting to recognise that I may have punched way above my weight, here. I think I'll wait a little longer before doing this sort of thing again.

yudantaiteki Wrote:

Animosophy Wrote:The remaining guesswork should just involve memorising what group a certain verb belongs to. That's why I'd suggest creating a new field in the above deck called "Group" to categorise each card (group 1 (v5), group 2 (v1), irregular and auxillary). For example, the very first card in the deck is -たがる, which has a very particular (but common) use explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiderative_mood#Japanese

Man I'm tired.

I'll have to see if I can find a way to rewrite that section on the wiki later; one mistake that I've corrected over and over again on this forum is with -garu. Some people are under the impression that -garu is just the general way to use -tai forms with people other than yourself, which couldn't be further from the truth. -garu is used only in a very specific situation -- when the person (which can even be yourself in some cases) is *showing* that they want something, and usually showing it repeatedly. In most cases you want to use something else, like たいと思う, たいと言った, たそうだ, たいみたい, たいでしょう, etc. As long as the -tai is followed by something that indicates uncertainty or that you got that information somehow, it's fine to use with other people.

From memory, the DoBJG explains this similar to how you have explained it (correct me If I'm not recalling correctly). Are there any other similar grammatical misunderstandings which seem to prop up in a similar likeness to garu? (At least on these forums?)

When it comes to production, I'm pretty paranoid (maybe too much) and these sort of corrections are worth their weight in gold.

uisukii Wrote:Another resource to help with this could be:
http://www.japaneseverbconjugator.com/

One downside (possibly major) at the moment it seems to be that both the search input function and the related conjugations appear to be restricted to ローマ字. Though if you had the kanji stem, it could be pretty useful.

Romaji input, romaji/kana/kanji output: http://homepage3.nifty.com/jgrammar/gram.../index.htm

Quote:57 -garu [SUFFIX]
-garu indicates that some feeling is openly displayed, usually by persons other than the speaker. The suffix -garu can be attached to the stem forms of A and AN (^cop.) that express a feeling or attitude, to the stem form of the S-ending -tai (which in turn attaches to V), and the stem form of the adj. of desire hoshii. Note that -garu itself works like a Goup 1 verb.


57.1 Adjective/adjectival noun-stem-garu
57.2 Verb-tagaru
57.3 hoshi-garu


57.1 ADJECTIVE/ADJECTIVAL NOUN-STEM-garu
Adj./AN to which -garu attaches are limited to those that express a feeling, i.e. omoshiroi (besides the meaning of 'interesting') also means 'to show an interest in', and fushigi na 'to feel mystified'. -garu adds the nuance that the subject visibly or audibly displays such feelings.

a 子供たちが一番面白がったのは折り紙。 kodomo-tachi ga ichiban omoshiro-gatta no wa origami What the children showed most interest in was origami.
b かわいがりようは子供並み。 kawaigari-yō wa kodomo-nami They lavish affection [on pets] as if they were their children.
c 国民がいやがることも必要があればやらなければならない。 kokumin ga iyagaru koto mo hitsuyō ga areba yaranakereba naranai If necessary, we must also do things that the people express dislike for.
d かつて「安全と水はタダだと思っている」と外国人に不思議がられて日本人だが、水に関する限りこの言葉はもうあてはまらない。 katsute anzen to mizu wa tada da to omotte iru to gaikokujin ni fushigi-garareta nihonjin da ga mizu ni kansuru kagiri kono kotoba wa mō atehamaranai In the past, foreigners used to be mystified at the Japanese, saying 'they think that safety and water come free', but with regard to water these words no longer apply.


57.2 VERB-tagaru
Attached to V-tai, -garu usually indicates that a second person, or most commonly a third, 'want(s) to' (see 189). Note, however, example g, where the speaker uses -tagaru about himself!

a 君が辞めたがっているという話を聞いたのだけど。 kimi ga yame-tagatte iru to iu hanashi o kiita no da kedo I've heard that you want to quit.
b 日本旅行の関係者はこの問題に触れたがらない。 nihon ryokō no kankeisha wa kono mondai ni fure-tagaranai The people at Japan Travel are unwilling to comment on this problem.
c うちの社員は技術者が大半で、設計も頑丈にしたがる。 uchi no shain wa gijutsusha ga taihan de sekkei mo ganjō ni shi-tagaru Our staff are mostly technicians, and therefore want to make designs sturdy.
d 親にも教師にもいじめの事実を隠したたる。 oya ni mo kyōshi ni mo ijime no jijitsu o kakushi-tagaru [The children] want to hide the fact that they are being bullied from both parents and teachers.
e あいつは部を出たがっている。 aitsu wa bu o de-tagatte iru He wants to leave the section.
f 母親は「汚い言葉がはんらんしている」と、子供を競技場に行かせたがらない。 hahaoya wa kitanai kotoba ga hanran shite iru to kodomo o kyōgijō ni ikase-tagaranai Mothers feel that the place is awash with foul language, and don't want to let their children go to the stadium.
g 自身を評して「何でもしてみたがる好奇心の固まりのような性格」とか。 jishin o hyōshite nan demo shite mi-tagaru kōkishin no katamari no yō na seikaku to ka Assessing himself, he says things like 'My nature is curiosity personified, wanting to try everything'.



57.3 hoshi-garu
Whereas hoshii [adj.] usually indicates what first persons (or second persons in questions) want, hoshi-garu is used for the wants of third persons.

a ドイツのオーケストラは今、ドイツ人をほしがっている。 doitsu no ōkesutora wa ima doitsujin o hoshi-gatte iru German orchestras at present want [to employ] Germans.
b いま日本が、本当に子供をほしがっているのなら、アフリカや東南アジアの子供たちをひきとって育ててもいいと思う。 ima nihon ga hontō ni kodomo o hoshi-gatte iru no nara afurika ya tōnan ajia no kodomo-tachi o hikitotte sodatete mo ii to omou If Japan really wants [more] children now, I think people should adopt and raise children from Africa or Southeast Asia.
c 「モノの時代からココロの時代へ」といわれるなかで、消費者が特にほしがっているのはクルマや住宅などのモノだ。 mono no jidai kara kokoro no jidai e to iwareru naka de shōhisha ga toku ni hoshi-gatte iru no wa kuruma ya jūtaku nado no mono da In the midst of the supposed shift of emphasis of our age from objects to spiritual matters, what consumers really want are objects like cars and housing.


JAPANESE: A COMPREHENSIVE GRAMMAR is a complete reference guide to modern Japanese grammar. Accessible and systematic, it is suitable for students at all levels, whether independent learners or on taught courses.
Presented in alphabetical order, the grammar points are clear and concise and put in context by a wealth of authentic examples. The book explores thoroughly the complexities of Japanese and fills many gaps left by previous textbooks. The emphasis throughout is on contemporary Japanese as spoken and written by native speakers.

Written by experts in their fields, this will provide a lasting and reliable source for all learners of Japanese.

Features include:
many original examples, taken from a range of Japanese media
comprehensive coverage of colloquial and standard Japanese
clear alphabetical organization for easy reference
extensive cross-referencing
detailed index of Japanese and English terms ((seperate files))


Stefan Kaiser is Professor at the Institute of Languages and Literatures, University of Tsukuba, Japan.
Yasuko Ichikawa is Professor at the International Center, University of Tokyo.
Noriko Kobayashi is Associate Professor and
Hilofumi Yamamoto is Assistant Professor, both at the Institute of Languages and Literatures, University of Tsukuba.

Verb conjugation tables, pitch accent marked:
http://www.gavo.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ojad/kouzokugo

Looks like koohii's wiki page needs updating. Would be a waste to have these burried in an old thread.