So I'm basically sold on using the Heisig method in order to aspire to my dream of becoming being able to speak and write in Japanese. I have one question and 2 worries I would like to have some of the people on this site address before I dedicate my learning to Heisig's method.

First the question.
Since right now the very little Japanese knowledge I have (simple phrases I can't take apart, knowing that Japanese is a SOV sentence structure instead of SVO, and the vowels and ks hiragana and katakana versions have been brute forced into my brain) is not a foundation for further learning and considering the fact that if I go Heisig route I am stuck with him untill RTK2 at least should I start with Remembering the Kanji or Remembering the Kana? I am leaning toward RT-Kana because it would introduce me to the method a bit more and give me an early feeling of some accomplishment.

Next: the worries.
One of my main concerns is the fear that I will be trapped inside of the Heisig method for a long time.
The next concern is if I do manage to get through RTK 1 and 2 (maybe even 3) is where I will be next. Sure I will know a lot of kanji, their meanings, and their pronunciations but as far as learning more Japanese where would I go next? Most sites for learning Japanese are geared towards people with no knowledge and I think there would be better options for some one who has been through the Heisig books but I don't know what those other options are.

If someone (or several people) can address each of these and give a good reason for the answer to the queston and logical reassurance (based on personal experience would be good) I could become a daily member of this site.

Don't worry so much about being trapped in Heisig. It's one very useful tool to help you with kanji, yes, but don't look at it as an end in and of itself, because otherwise you'll spend 6 months + messing with it without learning any Japanese. RTK takes a LOT of time and effort cumulatively, but if you break it down, you can make it relatively painless. But if you don't try to learn some basic Japanese on the side, you may lose sight of the goal and also get frustrated with RTK. (I know I would.)

So look at Heisig as one tool in your Japanese language education toolkit.

Now you need to gather some more tools to get a good basic foundation in the language. There are a lot of different ways to go about that. I took classes while I was in grad school, and then audited some more classes at a local university after I graduated. (Auditing a university class can be pretty darn cheap, and you get a lot of real help.)

But classroom settings don't work for everyone. Some people prefer to study alone, or in a small group. That's fine, too. A lot of folks do the sentence study method with an SRS like Anki.

You can read some of the posts here and see what books, programs, websites, etc. people are using, and how they're using them. But learning Japanese isn't just about reading, it's about listening and speaking and writing, too. So your goal should be to put together a set of tools to help you meet those various goals in learning the language.

Some people go the alljapaneseallthetime.com route, which is basically a total self-immersion program. It's a bit extreme, but it can net results if you're exceedingly focused. I look at it as a site full of good ideas to build a better immersion environment, and some things that worked for one particular person. What works for me, I use, what doesn't, I don't.

By consuming Japanese media of whatever sort, you'll expand your vocab naturally through encountering kanji "in the wild," in books, and you'll improve your vocab while listening to Japanese programs. It will also improve your pronunciation.

By the time you've finished RTK 1, you'll be able to see that the path after it gets a little murky, because by then you should have some basic understanding of Japanese from your other studies. Some go on to RTK 2, while others learn the kanji in RTK 3, then go back to 2. Still others skip 2 and 3 and go follow other paths. If you do some reading on this board, you'll see a lot of people doing a lot of different things. In the end, everyone does what they think works best for them.

If I was starting Japanese from scratch today, I'd:

1. Start with a good textbook that had audio tracks available, (I rag on the Genki series, but I think it's very good for total beginners.)

2. Then I'd grab Remembering the Kana and learn Katakana and Hiragana. The sooner, the better.

3. Once I had mastered the Kana, (which really shouldn't take too long), then I'd start learning some Japanese-- 20-30 minutes a day-- more, if you have time--using that book or website or collection of notes or whatever you found earlier.

4. After I had made a little progress and started to get comfortable (up to you when that is) then I'd start working in RTK once I felt ready to 'get serious.' RTK I'd probably start with 15-20 characters a day. Not too many, so you don't get burned out, and not too few, so you don't feel like you're not making progress. Even with 10 characters a day, you could theoretically finish RTK 1 in 204 days, so less than 7 months.

The trick to success is to do the reviews every day without fail, if you can. You could probably do it in 20-30 minutes if you keep it to 10-20 characters a day.

I took 6 semesters of university-level Japanese, then stepped away for a few years, then came back, then stepped away again, then came back, then started RTK while reviewing all of my old Japanese. Not having done it earlier didn't ruin me, although I will admit that had I known what I know now, I would definitely have integrated it sooner into my Japanese language education.

The magic of RTK in my opinion is that it breaks down a difficult task into manageable chunks. Learning the writing, meanings, on- and kun- yomi of a character all at once is very difficult. Learning it one piece at a time is far more logical IMO. That's all it really is about. RTK1 just teaches you the writing and a loose (sometimes very loose) meaning you assign to it to help you get a handle on it.

Oops, didn't mean to write a novel.

rich_f speaks good things. RTK is a tool for what I consider to be the most difficult part of Japanese, the kanji. Other than that, you will need to draw apon many more resources to truly get an In on the language.

But as for you questions:

Oisi42 Wrote:...at least should I start with Remembering the Kanji or Remembering the Kana?

Learning the kana first is a very good idea because you will get immedate benefit from it. It's the basis for pronunciation in the language and is an integral part of the written language along with the kanji. And it will still be important if you decide to ditch RTK. So go for it. (Do both hiragana and katakana!)

Oisi42 Wrote:One of my main concerns is the fear that I will be trapped inside of the Heisig method for a long time.

If you're like some of us, RTK1 will take months. Maybe even a year. Personally, it took me seven months since joining this site. But, talking about it as being trapped is looking at it the wrong way. Like I said earlier, RTK addresses only the kanji. Important, yes. But there are other aspects of the language that need attention too. Can you, for example, hear Japanese audio and discern where one word ends and the next one begins? You can do both at the same time.

Oisi42 Wrote:The next concern is if I do manage to get through RTK 1 and 2 (maybe even 3) is where I will be next.

I specialised and I regret it. I did RTK in absence of all other Japanese studies and I realise now that it was a waste of valuble time outside of kanji study. So my advice for this is... don't look at it as "What do I do from here", but more like "I've finished RTK and now have more time to spend on everything else." Reading. Listening. Speaking. Writing.

I'm still a learner, but I hope this helps.

My Hindsight Recommended Course to Learning Japanese:

Foundation (in this order):
Hiragana/Katakana Your basis for all Japanese to come. NO ROMAJI!
Pimsleur Listening Excellent introduction of essential Japanese through drilled listening/speaking (easy to find on torrent, if you're into that)
Heisig 1 It takes a while, but it solves what most consider the largest hurdle to Japanese
Tae Kim's Grammar Japanese explained from the inside


Vocab Building & Application (in any order/combination):
Vocab Drilling (Meguro JLPT Resources)
Heisig 2
A text (JFE, Minna Nihongo)
Reading (manga, children's newspaper, etc)
Writing (journal, Mixi, etc)
Listening (TV, radio, podcasts, etc)
Speaking (partner, exchange)

(I will never compromise on my belief that the very first thing you should do is learn the kana. First, it solidifies your pronunciation since you understand the Japanese phonetic model. Next, it immerses you in Japanese. I believe romaji is a horrible crutch for people who want quick and dirty use of the language, not learning. Yes, it's slow and difficult at first. But saying romaji is easier is like saying riding a bike in a marathon is faster. You got to the finish line quicker, but you haven't run the actual race! Also, learning the kana is a great motivator; it's frickin' cool to learn new squigglies. I still remember clearly the first Japanese I recognized and could read "in the wild").

Depending on your learning style, I would recommend a textbook for 3 months or so before you start Heisig. It will have wet your appetite for more Japanese, and also exposed your need for a better way to learn kanji (you'll realize soon enough how difficult it is to learn kanji any other way). Also, a few months of more Japanese study will make the Japanese you already know immediately applicable with Heisig. All those words you know will be little "aha!"s when you learn the kanji in Heisig.

I would actually go back into textbook/other sources mode after RTK1 for awhile before going into RTK2.

The others have explained enough about "getting trapped" in Heisig. It's just not possible if you have a vision of what it is.

These others have said good stuff, and I agree with all that. It's good advice. I'm just going to differ on just one bit of opinion.

To me, RTK1 is like learning the alphabet. Sort of like learning it by learning a song to keep the A-B-C's in order. But this "alphabet" has thousands of "letters", so it's 2 orders of magnitude bigger than the English song is. I've been reviewing the Kanji for years now, and now with RTK, I've gotten more of them than ever before.

But it's just the ABCs. My little point of disagreement is just this: You don't need to know any japanese to just study the alphabet. In total literacy, you're not going to get so very far without the ABCs. You're gonna have to learn the ABCs eventually. Whenever you do it, however you do it, it's just a whomping big task that needs doing.

That little point being said, we love Japanese, so we're gonna get a bit bored studying only the ABCs for months at a time. So, yeah, there's going to be something else going on at the same time, probably. Since memory and association are so tightly linked, RTK is good, and if you do something else, it should probably get linked into this (if it doesn't overwhelm). RTK breaks a huge task into manageable steps. If you overload it with too much, then you sort of undo the best part of it.

So, I didn't do this, I loved Japanese for years before really starting on the ABCs, and then took years to approach it with RTK. But, if I could do it over, I'd start the ABCs (naturally the kana come first to me too) from day 1. That's my one little point. You don't need to wait 3 months or more after loving Japanese to start on ABCs.

Kanji is so much fun. RTK strategy seems to me to change it from impossible to possible. It takes years, even after you've done RTK1 (I imagine) to really own kanji. But you don't need vocabulary, you don't need grammar, you don't need familiarity with Japanese pronunciation, you don't need anything to start the process of learning the ABCs.

So, everybody is unique, and the best way for you is going to be your way. But if I could do it over, I'd start the ABCs sooner, and I don't see any reason to suggest that you really need to do anything else to lay a foundation for them.

I agree with you Charley that the best thing to do (if possible) is to do RTK1 first to get its benefit as early as possible. However, RTK seems to have quite a high drop out rate, and while I was studying it there were certainly times when I didn't know if I could keep at it.

Getting a good taster of Japanese study for at least a few months may improve the chances of some people completing RTK1.

When I was doing RTK1, since I had studied kanji before the hard way I could see right away how much more effective learning kanji this way was, by comparison. By the time I got past the half way point I already started to see the benefits of the kanji knowledge I was building, because I knew some Japanese and could see the kanji I was learning being useful right away. By the time I did 3/4 of the book, unknown kanji were a minority and a bit of an annoyance, and so I wanted to finish the book even more than when I started. It was very motivational for me, which helped get through the hardest chapters towards the end quickly. With zero Japanese knowledge, I wouldn't have had that extra motivation to help me through.

Wow, simply amazing. Not only did I not expect so many replies in so little time, I found exactly what I needed in the replies. I'm in school right now (don't worry I am in study hall) and as soon as I get home it is go go amazon for Rembering the Kana. Currently $15 dollars if I remember right. Untill it comes I will attempt the brute force method a bit more, not for learning but just to reinforce my goals with Heisig. What I'm going to go do right now is print of a Hiragana chart and go for a bit of brute force memorization and mix in doing something usefull like browsing the net for basic grammar or culture facts. I'll come back to the site daily and some day I will have a lot of history stored on here that will be fun to look back on. See everyone in about 6-7 hours or so!

Just to clarify, the steps I outlined in my post are pretty much to do be done all roughly at the same time. I don't think you need 3 months to get comfy with the language before starting RTK- you just need to reach a point where you understand why you need it.

I didn't need to use Remembering the Kana to learn Hiragana and Katakana. I pretty much just brute force learned them in a couple of weeks in my Japanese class-- it was a summer school class, so we met for 4 hours a day, 5 days a week. We didn't have time to forget.

So we also started learning kanji within the first few weeks as well. It was sort of like, week 1- hiragana, week 2- katakana, week 3 & 4 - absorb, week 5- start with kanji from there on out.

But if you're going to be doing self-study, then Remembering the Kana will probably help you to remember them, so go for it.

You could also try the approach of doing nothing but RTK1 until you finish the book. It's a valid approach, it's just that some people will get burned out that way. Learning a little Japanese on the side will sort of keep the goal in front of you, and you won't feel like you didn't learn any Japanese because you had your nose in RTK1 all the time. It's a personal preference thing. Do what you feel is best.

[ファブリス]

Like rich_f says. You might save some time and skip the book for the hiragana and katakana. There are some helpful mnemonics for hiragana on thejapanesepage.com. Linkword (eg. [kana]ki[/kana] looks like "a key") is very useful. Mnemonics based on the shape of the character are a big no-no for RtK1, but I think it's great for the hiragana and katakana.

I also view the kanji as a large set of ABCs like CharleyGarret. My hindsight recommendation note this and puts them right after the kana. I wish I had done the kanji right away. That said, it is a hindsight desire. I don't know if I, or anyone, would have been dedicated enough to finish RTK1 as fast as I did without more motivation of either "real Japanese", or the frustration of other methods not working (I had so much fun doing RTK1 though that I doubt it, but will never know). I have yet to hear of anyone who has done RTK1 first thing and their feelings about it. Most come around to RvTK later in their studies. Maybe you can be one of the first. And maybe all the motivation you need is a community like this!

Oh, and I just memorized the kanji by brute force and pictograph mnemonics. A week for each with a couple weeks solid review is good. Start with hiragana.

dingomick Wrote:Oh, and I just memorized the kanji by brute force and pictograph mnemonics. A week for each with a couple weeks solid review is good. Start with hiragana.

I will feel free to assume that was supposed to be kana. My studies are pretty disorganized now but I am currently dipping in a bit to the kanji with the pdf sample and at the same time going for kana. I wonder if Remembering the Kana's claim of being able to learn each one in 3 hours is truthful. Only one way to find out it seems since they don't have a big sample for that book like they do for RTK.

Yes, the kana.

Don't mess around. Memorize your kana first. :mad:

Having JUST finished RTK (like literally 5 minutes ago!) I agree with everybody here as well (learn you kana first!). One thing that I don't think you want to get in to your head is that you are by any means feel that you are trapped with RTK. I think that a lot of detractors from RTK think that once you start it it's the one and only way that you have to go. Like many people have said take from it what helps you along in your journey. Like was stated before some people go on to do book 2 and 3, others decide to go another path, and still others never finish the book as maybe some other method is better for them.

In my personal view there is no faster method then RTK and that is why I chose it. As a beginning student I think it's very hard to see "the tree for it's leaves." Meaning if I knew what I know now I would have started RTK back when I was 16 and took my first Japanese class. Sure I wouldn't have understood why I was making up these stories to only to memorize an English meaning, or how it was helping me, but NOW seeing how it all fits together it really is a vital tool.