First of all, congratulations on deciding to study Japanese. That's great, and I hope you continue.

I wanted to say that I used Rosetta Stone myself (along with about half of the products and methods known to man) and felt it was actually good. I wouldn't stop at all. This site is geared toward RTK and self-learning, so perhaps commercially-available products are viewed less favorably. I don't know.

Anyway, with Rosetta Stone, you learn basic grammar structures and vocabulary, and following the lessons will keep you steadily progressing. Those seem like things beginners (and beyond) need. Half of the challenge of learning Japanese is to settle on a decent method and just stick with it.

What made the difference with Rosetta Stone, for me, was to stop trying to use it as a learn-through-immersion tool, which is what it claims to be. That didn't really work, because too often it was unclear what the pictures were representing. What did work, however, was to listen to the dialog and read the kanji. Whenever I couldn't read a kanji, I'd switch over to the hiragana, figure out what it was, then look up the word in my electronic dictionary. Once you can read and understand the sentence, just review it a few more times until you've got it.

I think it's a good way to learn Japanese, and certainly compatible with other methods. I'd keep going with it.

eagles980 Wrote:When you say you've done 2500 cards, you don't mean JUST the keywords, do you?

Yeap, other than reading half way through Tae Kim's grammar guide a couple months ago, I haven't spent my time on anything else. Readings and grammar are my intended next steps, now that I've retained a little over 90% of the kanji I'm currently reviewing.

The "optimised" Core 2k/6k deck provides me with the readings with audio, and uisukii's DoBJG deck (maybe in combination with nihongoresources' grammar guide) gives me the grammar. I'm hoping to finish these by October.

This is the way I've decided to learn Japanese. I feel more impatient when learning multiple things simultaneously rather than one or two things sequentially. I think kanji recognition will eliminate a lot of frustration when studying grammar (needless to say readings too), essentially speeding up the process relative to trying both at the same time. I haven't thought it through, but I'll take a chance and say I think it's a valid point.

That's not to say I'm not farmiliar with the sound of the spoken language. I've watched subbed anime/Japanese TV (http://www.fengyunzhibo.com/space/japan.htm) a fair bit.

Whatever you decide to do, let it be enjoyable. Someone once said here that it's the single greatest thing preventing a comfortable flow of info into long term memory, and I agree. You tend to put more hours into whatever you're doing and the hours you do put in have more oomph.

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:What made the difference with Rosetta Stone, for me, was to stop trying to use it as a learn-through-immersion tool, which is what it claims to be. That didn't really work, because too often it was unclear what the pictures were representing. What did work, however, was to listen to the dialog and read the kanji. Whenever I couldn't read a kanji, I'd switch over to the hiragana, figure out what it was, then look up the word in my electronic dictionary.

Check out the Erin's Challenge site. You can do this same exact thing, but with far better quality material.

Quote:Check out the Erin's Challenge site. You can do this same exact thing, but with far better quality material.

https://www.erin.ne.jp/en/

I gotta say, that's a pretty sweet site. It seems like an update to a video series I watched about a decade ago, about this sweaty foriegner named Yan, and his Japanese adventures.

But while Erin's Challenge is far more interesting and natural than Rosetta Stone, it's not nearly as extensive. So doing both together would be my recommendation. Anyway, that's what I did.

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:First of all, congratulations on deciding to study Japanese. That's great, and I hope you continue.

I wanted to say that I used Rosetta Stone myself (along with about half of the products and methods known to man) and felt it was actually good. I wouldn't stop at all. This site is geared toward RTK and self-learning, so perhaps commercially-available products are viewed less favorably. I don't know.

I think it's a good way to learn Japanese, and certainly compatible with other methods. I'd keep going with it.

THANK YOU! I was hoping to get someone else with actual experience with Rosetta to provide a positive reaction to the program. Like I said before, I don't think it's that bad! What I did realize early on, like you said, was that I needed to have additional resources to parse through and understand the vocabulary and grammar (highlighting the relevant bit in red isn't very helpful, lol), but once that hurdle is jumped, it's an excellent way to get some basic reading, listening, grammar and vocabulary practice done all in one convenient source.

What I'm doing currently is working with Human Japanese (I think it's an excellent program so far after a couple of days of using with it) and basically plowing through it until I reach a point I haven't covered in Rosetta (again, clearly I've learned some useful bits of info with good old Rosie). I think using both in tandem, with one specializing in listening / reading and the other in explanation, vocab and grammar, it looks like, will leave me quite well off. Do you think doing Tae Kim at the same time would be a bit of overkill or should it wait until I get done with one or the other?

Anyway, your input is appreciated regardless.

Animosophy Wrote:Yeap, other than reading half way through Tae Kim's grammar guide a couple months ago, I haven't spent my time on anything else. Readings and grammar are my intended next steps, now that I've retained a little over 90% of the kanji I'm currently reviewing.

This is the way I've decided to learn Japanese. I feel more impatient when learning multiple things simultaneously rather than one or two things sequentially. I think kanji recognition will eliminate a lot of frustration when studying grammar (needless to say readings too), essentially speeding up the process relative to trying both at the same time. I haven't thought it through, but I'll take a chance and say I think it's a valid point.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not outright criticizing your method, I'm just saying it wouldn't work especially well for me. I get a lot more enjoyment working with a bunch of varied topics while taking my mind off of previous ones for the information to sink in. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. It definitely takes dedication for Kanji to be one's entire focus for months on end, that's for sure!

eagles980 Wrote:Do you think doing Tae Kim at the same time would be a bit of overkill or should it wait until I get done with one or the other?

I'd advise waiting, for two reasons. One is that you've got enough to do as it is. Stick with your current programs until you finish them, and then move on. Stick and move, as they say.

The second reason is that, by the time you finish those two programs, you'll have already picked up a lot of what Tae Kim would teach you, so that seems redundant. Not that redundancy isn't good at times, but for now, I think I'd wait.

Good luck and keep going!

Ken

[RawToast]

eagles980 Wrote:THANK YOU! I was hoping to get someone else with actual experience with Rosetta to provide a positive reaction to the program. Like I said before, I don't think it's that bad! What I did realize early on, like you said, was that I needed to have additional resources to parse through and understand the vocabulary and grammar (highlighting the relevant bit in red isn't very helpful, lol), but once that hurdle is jumped, it's an excellent way to get some basic reading, listening, grammar and vocabulary practice done all in one convenient source.

One of the many gripes with Rosetta in language circles is the price. If you can access it for free (library or from 'peers') then it is worth doing.

Quote:What I'm doing currently is working with Human Japanese... Do you think doing Tae Kim at the same time would be a bit of overkill or should it wait until I get done with one or the other?

Human Japanese is good. Once you're done you should be able to rush through the first part of TK. As HJ is quite short you might as well wait until you have finished it.

I tend to SRS from multiple grammar sentence decks (Genki, TK, JSPfEC, DoBJG) but finish adding to one before starting the next. For example, finishing TK Basic before starting Genki 1. That doesn't mean I am reading a few pages from one source then a few of another; instead, I am just getting more example sentences for the points I know

This is a gentle introduction to the Japanese language for people who like anime and manga. It may be an entertaining supplement to your other language learning resources.

http://www.anime-manga.jp/

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:I'd advise waiting, for two reasons. One is that you've got enough to do as it is. Stick with your current programs until you finish them, and then move on. Stick and move, as they say.

The second reason is that, by the time you finish those two programs, you'll have already picked up a lot of what Tae Kim would teach you, so that seems redundant. Not that redundancy isn't good at times, but for now, I think I'd wait.

Gotcha. I was getting a bit worried about having to do everything I've collected at once (Human Japanese, Rosetta, Core2k6k, Tae Kim, various beginner book recommendation list and the actual books, Genki 1 2 PDF, RTKana, RTKanji, etc.). Now that I know I just have to do something, anything, it's a bit of a load off my mind.

I'll just focus on shoring up and retaining my knowledge of the Kana, work on speaking, listening, vocab and grammar with Rosetta and Human Japanese and get my Kanji up to speed with RTK. After that, I guess I'll look into Core2k/6k, RTK 2, Tae Kim, etc. etc. Roll with the punches as they come, I say.

RawToast Wrote:One of the many gripes with Rosetta in language circles is the price. If you can access it for free (library or from 'peers') then it is worth doing.

Don't worry about that, haha. As a dirt poor college kid, I'm well familiar with the 'peers' of internet land. That base is covered for sure.

Quote:Human Japanese is good. Once you're done you should be able to rush through the first part of TK. As HJ is quite short you might as well wait until you have finished it.

Got it. That's what I plan to do. Looks like my schedules gonna be set for the next few months of study.

Quote:I tend to SRS from multiple grammar sentence decks (Genki, TK, JSPfEC, DoBJG) but finish adding to one before starting the next. For example, finishing TK Basic before starting Genki 1. That doesn't mean I am reading a few pages from one source then a few of another; instead, I am just getting more example sentences for the points I know

That's seems like a good way to get one's sentence deck going. Are you using decks like core2k6k as well or do you think making one yourself and ignoring the premade ones is the best way to study?

Thanks for your response.

eagles980 Wrote:Don't get me wrong, I'm not outright criticizing your method, I'm just saying it wouldn't work especially well for me. I get a lot more enjoyment working with a bunch of varied topics while taking my mind off of previous ones for the information to sink in. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. It definitely takes dedication for Kanji to be one's entire focus for months on end, that's for sure!

I understand we think on the same wavelength. People learn fastest when they're doing what they want.

Although I wouldn't call myself dedicated. I think that I'll always question my own motives, and because I know that I enjoy learning Japanese, the progress makes me happy no matter what needs to be done. I may even be learning in a way that's incompatible for me and I'd do better changing study methods, but until then, I'll just do what I'm comfortable with.

Have fun 8)

Animosophy Wrote:

eagles980 Wrote:Don't get me wrong, I'm not outright criticizing your method, I'm just saying it wouldn't work especially well for me. I get a lot more enjoyment working with a bunch of varied topics while taking my mind off of previous ones for the information to sink in. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. It definitely takes dedication for Kanji to be one's entire focus for months on end, that's for sure!

I understand we think on the same wavelength. People learn fastest when they're doing what they want.

i disagree.

a lot of times, the things that are most helpful aren't always necessarily the most fun. and there's a lot of stuff in life that isn't immediately gratifying but is immensely helpful and enjoyable after you've gotten over a harsh learning curve.

i've actually hit a wall because instead of doing explicit study i just laze around and watch variety shows and dramas with japanese subtitles and am content to not completely understand it. (i'd rather not say that i understand an arbitrary percentage of it but rather admit that there are scenes that i don't understand that i can usually bypass.) sure it's fun but i know that unless i actually take the time to constantly review and SRS, or even actually focus on those scenes and process the japanese that i missed, then i'll be stuck in the same rut.

[RawToast]

eagles980 Wrote:

Quote:I tend to SRS from multiple grammar sentence decks (Genki, TK, JSPfEC, DoBJG) but finish adding to one before starting the next. For example, finishing TK Basic before starting Genki 1. That doesn't mean I am reading a few pages from one source then a few of another; instead, I am just getting more example sentences for the points I know

That's seems like a good way to get one's sentence deck going. Are you using decks like core2k6k as well or do you think making one yourself and ignoring the premade ones is the best way to study?

Thanks for your response.

I think a few other people do a similar method. I do Core as single word word recognition deck (with the sentence as a 'hint'). Then sentences for grammar/reading practice.

kainzero Wrote:i disagree.

a lot of times, the things that are most helpful aren't always necessarily the most fun. and there's a lot of stuff in life that isn't immediately gratifying but is immensely helpful and enjoyable after you've gotten over a harsh learning curve.

i've actually hit a wall because instead of doing explicit study i just laze around and watch variety shows and dramas with japanese subtitles and am content to not completely understand it. (i'd rather not say that i understand an arbitrary percentage of it but rather admit that there are scenes that i don't understand that i can usually bypass.) sure it's fun but i know that unless i actually take the time to constantly review and SRS, or even actually focus on those scenes and process the japanese that i missed, then i'll be stuck in the same rut.

Why do you suppose delayed gratification can't be part of what you like out of learning? RTK isn't particularly fun and even without the immediate enjoyment, the knowledge that I'm doing something to fastfoward my learning provides me with an even greater sense of enjoyment. challenging tasks with meaning are enjoyable. This is quite a rational way of thinking. If I waste time when I could otherwise be productive, I would feel regret, perhaps as you have recently. I remember a term was supposedly coined for people who think in this way. The second life mindset or something. People who can't stand to waste time. We can only achieve so much with the hours we've got left so they may as well be spent productively. If something has been stopping you from doing the necessary work, it only takes this change in perspective to start feeling like you'd rather get on with it, rendering the nature of whatever tasks they are unimportant, if not irrelevant

RawToast Wrote:I think a few other people do a similar method. I do Core as single word word recognition deck (with the sentence as a 'hint'). Then sentences for grammar/reading practice.

Oh, ok. I might try doing something like that once I get done with both Rosetta and Human Japanese.

animosophy Wrote:I understand smile we think on the same wavelength. People learn fastest when they're doing what they want.

Although I wouldn't call myself dedicated. I think that I'll always question my own motives, and because I know that I enjoy learning Japanese, the progress makes me happy no matter what needs to be done. I may even be learning in a way that's incompatible for me and I'd do better changing study methods, but until then, I'll just do what I'm comfortable with.

Have fun 8)

Absolutely. As long as one does what they enjoy while they attempt to learn a language, they can't really go wrong, especially if they'd be miserable and bored otherwise. A little something (or a lot, in your case) is always better than nothing.

Good luck and have fun to you too.

If you're not the creative type, just plow through a textbook. Its boring, but it has just about everything there to get you started. If you are creative, then start however you like. Personally i prefer learning grammar + whatever vocab turns up in examples first. Thats the kind of person I am, I need structure and foundation first. After that its a matter of looking up a lot of words.

Alternatively you can learn a lot of words and study grammar last. Or you could learn a bunch of sentences+words and look up any grammar points that seem unfamiliar (you'll need a grammar reference book for this). Or you could do the same thing but with song lyrics.

There are an infinite number of ways to go about it. Textbook is the easiest, as its already structured for you. But if you are a big self-organizer, do whatever you like.