amtrack Wrote:A formal instructor can teach you the things you don't understand by opening a book. If you think a book can teach you everything, it cannot. Firstly, you won't even "get" all of it. Secondly, there's a huge difference between theory and applicable practice. Third, your learning is limited by your ability comprehend/understand in the first place.

If you are talking about living in some fairy tale land where I have access to the most perfect private instructor who has ever lived for every single question I might possibly have then yes you would be correct.

But in the real world I honestly can't disagree more with almost everything you have said. There is not a single Japanese concept that I have come across that I wasn't able to learn via written explanation combined with reading and hearing it in natural examples and almost all of said explanations were vastly easier to understand that the multitude of formal Japanese instructors I have had.

I am someone who self studied to approximately a JLPT3 level before entering into a 1 year Japanese language program in Tokyo. Now don't get me wrong I definitely learned quite a bit while at school and I had some really amazing teachers who were truly passionate about their job but they didn't come CLOSE to the efficiency of self study. In fact if I could go back I would without a doubt never pay for such a language course again and would simply spend my money to have a few hours of dedicated conversation practice at a coffee shop or what not a few times per week.

For 1/100th the price of formal instruction you could simply buy yourself 3-4 different textbooks (or audio guides, or whatever) for every aspect of Japanese you are covering just for the sake of having alternative explanations and I assure you the explanation in one of them will be better than what most formal instructors will be able to come up with 9 times out of 10.

With regards to this discussion I think the advent of the internet and accessibility to information has quite a big impact.

Now people are able to argue about self learning being viable, when 50 years ago they would have stood no chance at all of learning on their own.

My point is that there are now a wide range of people attempting to self-teach of different skill (even intelligence) levels. Before these people wouldn't have even bothered trying.

To self teach 50 years ago would require reading tons of books, pretty much dedicating a large amount of your life to the cause. By todays standards these people would be considered scholars, perhaps even geniuses.

Nowadays it is common for people to not have read any books since they were forced to as a child. Of course self-learning for them will be hard, and it's not their fault really it's just the way things are now.

This is going to change even more over the next few years as people are reading less and using the internet more. Sure you can read on the computer but almost nobody sits down and reads a computer like they read a book (except e-readers).

lardycake Wrote:Sure you can read on the computer but almost nobody sits down and reads a computer like they read a book (except e-readers).

I dunno, I always found it a lot more natural to read off a monitor than off a book.

I could put the book on a table and strain my neck by looking down. Or I could hold the book and tire my arms out. It sounds like I'm whining (and I guess I am a little), but it's not insignificant if you're reading for hours. It makes an enjoyable reading experience ever so slightly less enjoyable, and makes a dull book for a class that much more of a pain to read. Whenever I read a book, I end up constantly shifting positions every couple minutes and eventually end up sore, even though I read a lot of books when I was younger (with the exact same problems).

By contrast, sitting at a computer involves a somewhat more reasonable position. Just sitting and looking straight ahead, with occasional stretches to keep my blood flowing. I can sit for hours with no discomfort. When I find a good PDF (often a PDF of something that would be in a book), I can eagerly sit there and read it with no problem.

lardycake Wrote:Nowadays it is common for people to not have read any books since they were forced to as a child. Of course self-learning for them will be hard, and it's not their fault really it's just the way things are now.

Even for those people, I'd have to disagree that self-learning is getting harder. A lot of the difficulty in self-learning used to be digging up the actual resources. Today, that is a lot easier, and the main challenge is actually mentally absorbing those resources. For those too lazy for even that, some websites go as far as to provide some structure and spoonfeed you your Japanese learning, though often for a fee. You could argue that paid online services are not really self-learning anymore, but the fee there is much lower, and it lacks the other barriers of a traditional education. I don't doubt that more westerners are learning Japanese than ever before.

I think classes can be useful at higher levels. Particularly the opportunity of writing and speaking formal Japanese that's hard to practice and get feedback on for free (eg. not many opportunities to practice business Japanese before passing an interview - catch 22). Also enunciation coaching I suppose. Of course, attending classes for natives is good practice for increasing specialised knowledge.

There's nothing in low level or intermediate classes that is hard to come across online.

dizmox Wrote:I think classes can be useful at higher levels. Particularly the opportunity of writing and speaking formal Japanese that's hard to practice and get feedback on for free (eg. not many opportunities to practice business Japanese before passing an interview - catch 22). Also enunciation coaching I suppose. Of course, attending classes for natives is good practice for increasing specialised knowledge.

There's nothing in low level or intermediate classes that is hard to come across online.

Classes can also be useful for any levels, in fact very good on people who knows few to no Japanese.. Classes can be that of a good baseline foundation, but it depends on how well an instructor would teach.. But as per experience, I can say that my 2 months basic class were worth it..

I've been taking paid online lessons at http://www.nihongo-pro.com for several months with what I think are good results. They are private lessons, and so have been excellent prep for me for the JLPT N3.

I've got 2 teachers there actually, and they have built me a rockin study plan. N3 should be a breeze (I hope!) and I want to work on N2 for next year.

Paid is definitely a higher quality teacher, usually, than free classes, no doubt about it. Both of my nihongo-pro teachers have a lot of experience, which makes a big difference too. I think it comes down to finding a teacher or teachers you mesh with, who keep you motivated to learn.

[Zgarbas]

I also started taking online lessons last month(with japonin). They've been surprisingly helpful. My speaking skills are going up quickly, and the grammar lessons are going smoothly; wish the timezones wouldn't be so harsh, though (the N1 読解 are at 5 am...no way I'm studying at that hour). I'm starting a quick crash private course on keigo this week, and I'm pretty excited about it.

Way too pricy for a long-term thing, though =/. Wish my Uni classes could've been this helpful. Alas!

Zgarbas Wrote:I also started taking online lessons last month(with japonin). They've been surprisingly helpful. My speaking skills are going up quickly, and the grammar lessons are going smoothly; wish the timezones wouldn't be so harsh, though (the N1 読解 are at 5 am...no way I'm studying at that hour). I'm starting a quick crash private course on keigo this week, and I'm pretty excited about it.

Way too pricy for a long-term thing, though =/. Wish my Uni classes could've been this helpful. Alas!

Sounds very useful. I was thinking of taking those types of courses since it could boost my grammar and speaking skills. Any recommendations on what type of online courses are worthwhile? (I live in Canada, so I'm pretty sure the hours will be early for me as well)

[Zgarbas]

I just take whatever's in my time zone for the N1 level. My main quirk is with speaking, so anything is good, really. Japonin's the only one I tried, after seeing it on this thread, so I wouldn't know about the others. When I was looking up prices it seemed to be more cost efficient than the others, and with no negative reviews.

I take the Grammar and 会話 classes. The site has classes on different timeslots, so normally they'd have most classes twice a day, one at around 3 AM GMT and one at around 15-16, it's just the N1　読解＆感じ that only get a slot at 3am GMT, probably due to there not being many people in the Advanced section (I don't think I've seen more than 2 other people in the same class... which is a good thing. When I took an intermediate 会話 class there were 5 people and it was really underwhelming). How the class goes depends a lot on the people you're grouped with.

Personally, I've been thinking about taking Japanese classes at a local college, depending on their stance concerning outsiders taking classes there. My school is focused on engineering, so it doesn't have much in the way of language classes and the school I'd be taking Japanese at is focused on liberal arts, thus their engineering program is... The closest university that has a great engineering program and offers Japanese is Clemson University, which is quite a ways off and far too expensive as an undergrad without a job in his field.
The Japanese program at this college I want to try is fairly new, but hopefully that means they will be more open to newer teaching techniques. The biggest thing I need from it is 'encouragement' to speak and write though, so it should be worth it.

Of course, if any of y'all have a better idea, feel free to suggest it.

Zgarbas Wrote:I just take whatever's in my time zone for the N1 level. My main quirk is with speaking, so anything is good, really. Japonin's the only one I tried, after seeing it on this thread, so I wouldn't know about the others. When I was looking up prices it seemed to be more cost efficient than the others, and with no negative reviews.

I take the Grammar and 会話 classes. The site has classes on different timeslots, so normally they'd have most classes twice a day, one at around 3 AM GMT and one at around 15-16, it's just the N1　読解＆感じ that only get a slot at 3am GMT, probably due to there not being many people in the Advanced section (I don't think I've seen more than 2 other people in the same class... which is a good thing. When I took an intermediate 会話 class there were 5 people and it was really underwhelming). How the class goes depends a lot on the people you're grouped with.

Anything on the production side and grammar works for me. I'll have a careful look at what works with my timezone. I'd say the more people in the class, the less you get out of it. Always found smaller class sizes to work.

Lardycake I think you should do a bit of research on how language learning used to be before the internet and mass media. Your perception seems skewed. I'm a researcher and recently worked on a guy who was multilingual in the 1950s and there just weren't text books like we have now. He learnt in a way which seems popular and widely advocated on here which was by meeting native speakers. I understand what you mean but your assertion is not true.

[RawToast]

Zgarbas Wrote:I just take whatever's in my time zone for the N1 level. My main quirk is with speaking, so anything is good, really. Japonin's the only one I tried, after seeing it on this thread, so I wouldn't know about the others. When I was looking up prices it seemed to be more cost efficient than the others, and with no negative reviews.

I take the Grammar and 会話 classes. The site has classes on different timeslots, so normally they'd have most classes twice a day, one at around 3 AM GMT and one at around 15-16, it's just the N1　読解＆感じ that only get a slot at 3am GMT, probably due to there not being many people in the Advanced section (I don't think I've seen more than 2 other people in the same class... which is a good thing. When I took an intermediate 会話 class there were 5 people and it was really underwhelming). How the class goes depends a lot on the people you're grouped with.

This looks very interesting, I was considering doing a course starting in September at my local University (20 sessions for £250/€275/$300, plus the bus costs); however, it seems like I could get twice the time if I wanted from Japonin. Really considering trying a couple of lessons and the JLPT 'Final Preperation Courses' are these the ones you have tried for N1?

[Zgarbas]

That course was already finished by the time I signed up; I understand it'll resume around September. Hopefully, not at 3am GMT >.<.
I'd recommend you try the cheap 3 lessons try-out before anything, and see for yourself =).

Recently came back from my 2 months in Japan at a Japanese school.

What was good?

- Easy to ask questions and get answers. Things that would have taken hours to work out alone could be solved in a couple of minutes.

- You don't need to think. Just turn up and let the teacher plan everything for you. Sure it's not the quickest route to success but it made a nice change from having to work it all out alone.

- Constant conversation practice. The school had 会話 every week with local Japanese people. This was harder than the lessons since it doesn't follow a "plan" the same way a lesson does (teaches what you need to know first).

- That nice feeling when you learn something new and then see it all over the place on TV and in the world around you. You now understand what is going on around you a bit better.

- Bought tons of books really cheap in Japan compared to importing over the internet. Then blew all remaining money on 300円 mangas in the airport before coming back...

What I am doing now after getting back...

Deleted all my SRS decks (been at these ones for over a year).

In the process of creating new decks based on what I have learnt. These are primarily cloze delete focusing on Grammar and Joshi.

I have an entirely new philosophy for SRS.

2 years ago I blasted through RTK in 3 months, I did ~50 new kanji per day. A few months after completion I decided it was a mistake because you don't need that many kanji so early on, also reviewing takes up a lot of time.

Today I start RTK again with Japanese keywords which is something I have wanted to try to do for a while. This time I shall be reviewing just 5 new kanji per day, and that is fine!

With my new Japanese deck (mainly cloze delete and already 500 cards made) I shall be reviewing a mere 10 new cards per day, and that is also fine!

That is is for SRS!

The time I have freed up from reducing SRS load shall be spent on actual study and working through books. I will be adding lots of what I learn into the SRS but it will be a while before I get to reviewing that content. So be it.

lardycake Wrote:Recently came back from my 2 months in Japan at a Japanese school.

What was good?

- Easy to ask questions and get answers. Things that would have taken hours to work out alone could be solved in a couple of minutes.

- You don't need to think. Just turn up and let the teacher plan everything for you. Sure it's not the quickest route to success but it made a nice change from having to work it all out alone.

- Constant conversation practice. The school had 会話 every week with local Japanese people. This was harder than the lessons since it doesn't follow a "plan" the same way a lesson does (teaches what you need to know first).

- That nice feeling when you learn something new and then see it all over the place on TV and in the world around you. You now understand what is going on around you a bit better.

- Bought tons of books really cheap in Japan compared to importing over the internet. Then blew all remaining money on 300円 mangas in the airport before coming back...

Thanks for your summary on Japanese schools - I have vague plans of doing the same, so that was somewhat helpful.

lardycake Wrote:What I am doing now after getting back...

Deleted all my SRS decks (been at these ones for over a year).

In the process of creating new decks based on what I have learnt. These are primarily cloze delete focusing on Grammar and Joshi.

I have an entirely new philosophy for SRS.

2 years ago I blasted through RTK in 3 months, I did ~50 new kanji per day. A few months after completion I decided it was a mistake because you don't need that many kanji so early on, also reviewing takes up a lot of time.

Today I start RTK again with Japanese keywords which is something I have wanted to try to do for a while. This time I shall be reviewing just 5 new kanji per day, and that is fine!

With my new Japanese deck (mainly cloze delete and already 500 cards made) I shall be reviewing a mere 10 new cards per day, and that is also fine!

That is is for SRS!

The time I have freed up from reducing SRS load shall be spent on actual study and working through books. I will be adding lots of what I learn into the SRS but it will be a while before I get to reviewing that content. So be it.

SRS has it's uses and misuses - unfortunately most people find easier to follow the later. It's nice to see people who have courage to admit that the way they used SRS wasn't the best and, more importantly, announce their change of method.

Errm... did lardycake actually state that the way the SRS was used before wasn't the best? A change in mindset and approach does not necessarily reflectively poorly on previous methods. This seems as though you are injecting personal bias into something which was not explicitly stated. It just seems a little emotionally loaded, it is.

Something which could have been an optimal approach at one point in time may not be optimal at a later point. Optimal loading is regulated by a constant state of change.