I've been feeling stuck in the past couple of weeks. Currently, I'm about halfway through learning the jouyou kanji (on and kun readings included). While I do feel like this is a huge accomplishment and milestone I also feel worn out. I feel like my retention ability is lowered significantly and that I can't absorb anymore information.

I've been through ruts before but this one feels different. And I can't just give up now. I can't. I worked so hard to come this far.

What helps? What can I do?

Uhm... stop immediately, and consider the whole purpose of this form is ... the Remembering the Kanji method.

I'm not saying RtK is the -only- way to learn the Kanji, but I will say this: Nothing was more of a painful waste of time in my Japanese study than drilling the Jouyou Kanji and their readings.

I'm quite convinced that learning readings separate from vocabulary is -only- a waste of time. I also think the only two effective ways to learn the Kanji are 1) the RTK method, and 2) learn to write and the names of the 214 radicals and then learn the kanji.

You don't give a lot of details on your learning method, but it sounds like you're brute-force drilling the dullest and most useless set of information and I'm not surprised it's burning you out.

Maybe you're not in a rut.
Usually in language learning, just when my head is about to explode with what are all these jumbled sounds or letters, the clouds part a little and I like I jumped up a step on this endless stairway.
Or maybe I just built a stair on a mountain that I'm climbing. The further up you climb the further you can see, but for some reason you must build steps and then step up that step instead of just running up the slope where you will just fall in a ravine or get poison ivy.
And there are no elevators on a mountain, see: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid189221

tashippy Wrote:Maybe you're not in a rut.
Usually in language learning, just when my head is about to explode with what are all these jumbled sounds or letters, the clouds part a little and I like I jumped up a step on this endless stairway.
Or maybe I just built a stair on a mountain that I'm climbing. The further up you climb the further you can see, but for some reason you must build steps and then step up that step instead of just running up the slope where you will just fall in a ravine or get poison ivy.
And there are no elevators on a mountain, see: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid189221

I love your description <3

SomeCallMeChris Wrote:Uhm... stop immediately, and consider the whole purpose of this form is ... the Remembering the Kanji method.

I'm not saying RtK is the -only- way to learn the Kanji, but I will say this: Nothing was more of a painful waste of time in my Japanese study than drilling the Jouyou Kanji and their readings.

I'm quite convinced that learning readings separate from vocabulary is -only- a waste of time. I also think the only two effective ways to learn the Kanji are 1) the RTK method, and 2) learn to write and the names of the 214 radicals and then learn the kanji.

You don't give a lot of details on your learning method, but it sounds like you're brute-force drilling the dullest and most useless set of information and I'm not surprised it's burning you out.

I think there are many different ways to learn Japanese. RTK is a great method, but it's not the only method. But whatever, that's for a different discussion.

I do make up stories for my kanjis just like all ya'll RTK peeps. But I decided to learn the readings at the same time. I'm able to read a lot of things now, and thus I chose to continue in this vein.

What I'm asking for is ways out of this rut. People who do the traditional RTK route still get stuck from time to time. Haven't you gotten stuck?

What did you do to get out of it? Did anything specific help?

I'm not saying you have to do RTK, I'm saying that learning the Jouyou kanji in Jouyou order and readings separate from vocabulary is like working in the salt mines. When I was in that rut, I moved to RtK. If I had hated RtK that much I would have gone for a radicals-based method.

In any case, at least make sure you're learning a vocabulary word along with each reading that you learn. That'll give you something concrete to hang your memories on and something immediately useful from your efforts.

If I were you I would take it easy for a week as a sort of rest (if you're using anki, keep up with reviews but don't add new cards), and maybe read something inspiring to get your brain motivated? A good book that did this for me in a big way is "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman."

I second Tzadeck's advice - take a break from adding new cards for a little while and instead focus on enjoying Japanese media. Read something simple and fun, watch some good movies or TV shows, play a video game - whatever it is that you enjoy doing in Japanese.
Or hell, you could even take a bigger break and focus on a different aspect of Japanese. You could work through a new textbook, or focus on grammar for a little while. Or maybe do an intensive read of a novel and focus on looking up and learning new vocabulary and grammar points.
The kanji will still be there waiting for you, and there's no rush to just power through them. Switch up what you're doing, and it might do the trick to get you back on track.

Kanji study is painful. I found RTK too painful to get through, and what you're doing is worse than that.

So, you could do what I did and stop studying kanji. I don't regret it at all. Everything I read has either furigana, is covered by the ones I learnt when I studied kanji, or has been picked up by seeing it repeatedly in context. Those that I don't recognise are generally words that I don't know the meaning of anyway so it's no loss that I don't recognise the kanji. Chances are you won't need to write them at all either.

You can focus on learning all the other good stuff and come back later to learn the rest of the kanji when you need them. Kanji isn't the bottleneck to understanding Japanese when you're a beginner. It becomes a bottleneck when you want to start reading native materials aimed at adults and already have the vocabulary to read it - until then it's not particularly important.

Stop adding. Keep reviewing. Come back later.

There is no reason not to... there is so much more of the language you need to learn, there is no need to burn yourself out by focusing on one aspect.

Tzadeck Wrote:If I were you I would take it easy for a week as a sort of rest (if you're using anki, keep up with reviews but don't add new cards), and maybe read something inspiring to get your brain motivated? A good book that did this for me in a big way is "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman."

I don't know about you but when I tried to take a small break from adding new cards, my retention actually went down some. I don't think you should ever stop adding, because it makes it that much harder to start again, and you will end up adding at a slower pace when you eventually do start.

I don't recommend pummeling the kun and on yomis into your brain like that. They're jouyou kanji which means they're used everyday. Think abt that for a second. That means you get natural srs from immersion bc theyre so commonly used. There's other ways to learn on and kun yomi. For example readin especially with audio ie lingq, song lyrics, japanese talk variety etc etc. I honestly think that's more efficient and effective and... Fun. I tried what you did before in the past. It was painful and ineffective in the sense that I progressed learning those common readings much faster doing something enjoyable and constructive. Also memorizing the readings doesn't tell you how the onten works in the word. And japanese is mad irregular with readings sometimes so sometimes even if you know all the possible readings to the kanji you won't know which one it is or if there's onten somewhere. and the only you know it's read that way is bc u heard someone use that word or read it like that ( ie tv show) or rikaichan or dictionar etc

Oh I just remembered the movie method. Maybe look into that if you really absolutely want to continue this method.

egoplant Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:If I were you I would take it easy for a week as a sort of rest (if you're using anki, keep up with reviews but don't add new cards), and maybe read something inspiring to get your brain motivated? A good book that did this for me in a big way is "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman."

I don't know about you but when I tried to take a small break from adding new cards, my retention actually went down some. I don't think you should ever stop adding, because it makes it that much harder to start again, and you will end up adding at a slower pace when you eventually do start.

I agree with this. I find that adding new material solidifies the old material in my brain. Also, if it's something like sentences then adding new ones makes the old ones that you used to have trouble with seem pretty trivial. There's something to be said for catching up if you're behind, but it's easy to spin your wheels for a while not adding anything without realizing how easy and beneficial it is to add new material.

I felt like this after I got halfway through RTK.

Stop adding, keep reviewing, immerse in the language.

I've been reading 5 pages of Japanese a day, reviewing my RTK, and listening for the past 2-3 weeks, without adding anything. It's kept me from quitting and has helped the reviews cement themselves in real media.

At first I thought that when I hit my bump, that everything I'd been doing for the past 3 months was pointless. Real media still seemed just as hard, my retention had dropped, and I was getting pissed. Finally caught up with all my reviews now, ready to start adding again, and the kanji feel more familiar to me, and reading 5 pages everyday doesn't take so long, I find myself skimming along at a much faster pace, actually picking up quite alot even if I don't know how to pronounce everything.

Regardless of the method you're using, you need to do this every now and then I feel. Or not, it's up to your method and reasons for learning I guess. I just know I feel a hell of alot better than I did 2 weeks ago.

egoplant Wrote:I don't know about you but when I tried to take a small break from adding new cards, my retention actually went down some. I don't think you should ever stop adding, because it makes it that much harder to start again, and you will end up adding at a slower pace when you eventually do start.

Well, it's not really about keeping retention high in the short term. It's about taking a break, even if it means your retention dips a bit more for that week, so that in the long run you can sustain your studies and avoid burnout.

I really do think reading something inspiring (in any language) can help with your studies, because it inspires you to do the work it takes to accomplish great things.

I'd encourage people to seek motivation in other ways that make hard work mutually reinforcing.

I'm motivated to study 100-200 kanji/day because of the idea of faster learning. The process itself is enjoyable because of it. That and all of the upbeat playlists I've put together on Spotify while I'm on Anki. I do everything I can to maximise my productivity because the prospect of being a very productive person is the motivation.

Recently I've had a lot of disheartening setbacks, responsibilities at home etc. and in times like this, I compare the difference in character between someone who gives up in the face of difficulty (that includes emotional ones/incompatible mindsets), and one who’s even more motivated by these barriers. The former may end up with regret, while the other can only get happier and happier each time they surpass a milestone. I want to be the latter guy. This is exactly what I hope to reflect in my Japanese learning.

Tbf, upbeat playlists really do many a difference.

Another potent movitator is to get jealous of the braggers. See how fast they ploughed through RTK and try to beat them in terms of effort made rather than results produced. The end of every day should be a rewarding experience 8)

Thanks so much everyone!!!

Most of the advice you guys gave me is really great (except the one suggesting I just skip kanji all together. I'm not going to do that, sorry.)!

Animosophy Wrote:...I compare the difference in character between someone who gives up in the face of difficulty (that includes emotional ones/incompatible mindsets), and one who’s even more motivated by these barriers....

This is so true and it really inspired me to push through.

Someone suggested reading a book, or focusing on another part of the language. So now I'm going through Tae Kims grammar while reading a japanese novel. I also started going to a Japanese language exchange once a week.

But I don't see why I shouldn't learn on and kun readings? I mean... Isn't it easier to know them instead of being limited to just ready-made words?

Onara Wrote:But I don't see why I shouldn't learn on and kun readings? I mean... Isn't it easier to know them instead of being limited to just ready-made words?

It's not that you shouldn't learn 音 and 訓 at all, but rather that you pick them up automatically as you learn vocabulary. Therefore, drilling them in isolation before you learn vocabulary can be seen as a waste of time (also, have fun with the readings for 生). And readings are more abstract than concrete words, so they'd be more difficult for me at least, if I did readings in isolation. The only benefit that you might gain from drilling the readings before learning vocab is that you can guess the reading of some words, but again, you're able to do that automatically while drilling vocab, since you pick up reading from other vocab words. And of course some words have irregular readings that don't use the readings you would've drilled anyway (芝生).

Maybe you know this already, but I'll mention it just in case: the general guideline is that 音 / Chinese reading is used in words that are kanji compounds, while 訓 / Japanese reading is used for words with that are a single kanji + okurigana. There are exceptions to the rule of course, but they're rare. Example: say you learn 感情／かんじょう／Emotion. Based on the above rule, you can guess from the reading that カン is the Chinese reading for 感 and ジョウ the Chinese reading for 情. Now look at the word 情熱／じょうねつ／Passion. Again you get ジョウ for 情 and ネツ for 熱. You've seen ジョウ for 情 twice now, which just reinforces it that much more. This is without drilling any readings in isolation, and you've learned two vocab words at the same time. Also, you can now guess the readings for 熱感 and 情感 and 熱情 based on this information alone.

The benefit of this approach is that it's self-reinforcing. Learn vocab and you'll learn readings whether you like it or not. And the more vocab you learn, the better you'll get at reading too.

Strongly agree with the above - learn words not readings.

One of the things I started with was Kanjidamage, which is like Heisig except focusing on recognition/readings rather than writing. Absolute waste of time.

And ... being limited to ready-made words is a good thing, if you want to be speaking the same Japanese that everyone else is speaking and not one that you make up yourself.

Onara Wrote:What helps? What can I do?

Slow down lol. Idk how many you do a day, but cut it in half if you have to. Also mix up your studies. You're just getting burned out from pounding kanji like no tomorrow. There's much more to Japanese than kanji, and contrary to consensus, you can learn it while doing everything else associated with Japanese (vocab, grammar, anime/manga, speaking, listening, etc).

For example, I'm going through Minna no Nihongo. So i'll do 20 vocab words and call it a day. Then i'll pick up my kanji book and learn 20 of those, call it a day. Then I take the audio from the Minna vocab and listen/repeat it for a few minutes. That ends the study session. After that I watch some anime, or play a visual novel to get in more listening.

Some days the vocab will be replaced with grammar and sentences depending on where i am in my course. The point is to keep your studies as varied as possible.

If there's anything you would enjoy reading in Japanese, I really think you should try doing so. I'm not sure if ~1k is enough to read without furigana. HOWEVER, if you find something enjoyable with furigana, I still think you can gain a lot of benefit.

I really think that seeing kanji in the context of a text you are reading will help you retain them, if you already studied them at some point. This is especially true if you are used to other methods of studying, since the brain likes variety and remembers things better when it is present. Also, the furigana may actually be more helpful than hurtful, since it will jog your memory for the readings and make reading less of a pain. It's not that much of a crutch, since the thing from reading that will help you with retention will be the context.