[Zgarbas]

まあまあ, Ajatt or not, monolingual dictionaries are something that a learner of any language has turned to at some point; it's not about any ajatt (or similar site)'s reinforced method so much as a tool, and OP was just asking for the way in which the tool is best implemented ^^. We were being pushed into using monolingual English dictionaries years before the Internet was relevant, so I'm sure we can at least discuss this without turning to the discussion.

I think we should rename Godwin's law into Khatzu's law.

I'm sorry if I sound stupid, but... what's the point of j-j dictionary?

When learning English I neither use nor have used in the past english-english dictionary (except for some cases, like slang or some more complex words) and I have no problems reading newspapers, watching movies without any subtitles or whatever.

Ofc my grammar sucks, but reading en-en vocabulary dictionary won't help with that. So back to my point, if you can simply look that word up in a normal dictionary, what's the point of bothering yourself with j-j? Just for reading practice? There are more interesting things to read than that. To get a better idea of that word? English dictionary won't show you 100% right definition, but it will be enough so you can figure out the real meaning in your head by reading a lot.

So... what's the point?

EDIT: seems like it was already discussed in this thread, I was just lazy to read it all. Anyway, what I read did not convince me.

Actually, dont worry about it. Just use whatever is easiest to understand.

[Zgarbas]

Fragas, monolingual dictionaries tend to give out more information than normal ones, especially when it comes to nuance.
Have a random sample, according to jisho.org
調査- investigation; examination; inquiry; enquiry; survey
探究- search; research; enquiry; inquiry
(both are する verbs)
調べる - to examine; to investigate; to check up; to sense; to study; to inquire; to search
尋ねる - to search; to look for; to look into; to investigate

Given their definitions, they might seem completely interchangeable, right? A monolingual dictionary would instead offer more information regarding the nuance. Of course, this can be achieved with a good Jp-En dictionary as well, but whether or not you can find one, its accessibility, etc are questionable. I've mentioned that when it comes to Romanian-English dictionaries, there is no good alternatives. So that can be one reason.
Also, given how Japanese-X dictionaries are not always readily available and/or of good quality, the native speaker of the language X would have to struggle to use an intermediary language in order to use a dictionary, so why not go monolingual while you're at it?

Jisho.org vs. a J-J dictionary is an unfair comparison because EDICT is really just a glossary, not a full dictionary. The J->E dictionary I have has explanations and lots of example sentences rather than just a list of English equivalents.

Personally I've never found that J-J gives any more help with "nuance" than J-E; if anything it's sometimes worse because example sentences will be from classical sources or very short phrases. The Genius J-E on my denshi jisho explains the various meanings 調査 or 調べる can have and shows examples, and the example sentences are more numerous and more detailed than anything on the two J-J dictionaries I have.

[Zgarbas]

^^ indeed. The quality of the dictionary is also of great importance. However, I think jisho vs goo is a fit comparison since they're both free, and online. If you invoke denshi jishos then there's already a cost involved, and a minor disadvantage when it comes to mining ease.

Yudantaiteki, could you tell what dictionary are you using?
This is totally off-topic, but I'm looking for a j-en dictionary for windows but I can't find anything good with example sentences like jisho.org. Even if I wanted to use j-j dictionary, it's way too soon and jisho.org is sometimes not enough.

I use the Genius J-E dictionary on my electronic dictionary, but if you want a J-E online dictionary there are two fairly good choices.

goo.ne.jp has a J-E dictionary with a lot of examples; you have to be able to read the kanji to use the dictionary, though.

alc.co.jp is good also; it's better for getting example sentences but it's not quite as good for figuring out a word in something you're reading.

jisho.org is OK for some cases when you've already got a context since you're finding the word in an actual native source you're reading, and you just need to see what it means and get back to reading.

Fragas Wrote:Yudantaiteki, could you tell what dictionary are you using?
This is totally off-topic, but I'm looking for a j-en dictionary for windows but I can't find anything good with example sentences like jisho.org. Even if I wanted to use j-j dictionary, it's way too soon and jisho.org is sometimes not enough.

Have you looked into Wakan? I use it and must say it's rather useful.

Here's my 2 cents:

@Zgarbas I think your bias for mastery over fluency is showing up again! :-)

Really, for a beginner nailing down exact meanings from the beginning only makes sense if you're striving for mastery from the start. If your goal is "just" fluency, then having only a vague idea what words mean is fine. As you go along you will get a more and more refined understanding of how words are used. This seems to me quite natural.

More generally, I think monolingual dicts can be turned into a fetish (not claiming Zgarbas or anyone here is doing that). The best way to learn what words mean is to see them used in many real contexts. If you want to get hint from a JE (or Mono) dictionary it is not going to hurt anything. And the meanings of words aren't in any dictionary, they are in how people are actually using them.

But JE can also be a abused. Beginners could be led astray if they think that bilingual dictionaries provide more than a hint at the meaning, and that there is a one-to-one mapping between words in different languages. As a reminder to myself of this I call the English fields on my Anki cards, "English Approximation". :-)

I also think comparing a great dictionary like goo.ne.jp (is that 三省堂？ 大辞[林泉]？ I'm too lazy to check) with a poor quality one like edict is bit unfair. They are both free, but one is very high quality and the other is really just a quick and dirty hack and useful only as a gloss.

All IMHO,

CJ

for plants and animals there's google images. it's fast and sometimes pictures are just more clearer than words. the dictionary or the wiki will tell you what genus it is and what it eats or where it lives and all that but the picture just shows you what it looks like and you go oh it's a land animal or a bird or a sea animal.　usually i come across a word that is an animal or a plant or whatever else that's more easily and quickly understood with google images, i can tell that it is from the context and the kanji they use or if they use katakana, etc etc. sometimes a picture is better than the monolingual and bilingual if you've never seen or heard of that plant/animal. it happens since japan is obsessed with plants in comparison to america (language-wise).

I like Tangorin. It's simple, interface is nice, and if you need a better explanation there are buttons to immediately search on alc, goo, and yahoo.

http://tangorin.com/

howtwosavealif3 Wrote:it happens since japan is obsessed with plants in comparison to america (language-wise).

???

howtwosavealif3 Wrote:for plants and animals there's google images. it's fast and sometimes pictures are just more clearer than words. the dictionary or the wiki will tell you what genus it is and what it eats or where it lives and all that but the picture just shows you what it looks like and you go oh it's a land animal or a bird or a sea animal.　usually i come across a word that is an animal or a plant or whatever else that's more easily and quickly understood with google images, i can tell that it is from the context and the kanji they use or if they use katakana, etc etc. sometimes a picture is better than the monolingual and bilingual if you've never seen or heard of that plant/animal. it happens since japan is obsessed with plants in comparison to america (language-wise).

Nouns are almost always easy to learn and to use appropriately, and an English translation would nearly always suffice just fine. There are probably plenty of Japanese nouns that don't have a 1:1 mapping with English, but many do and its not difficult.

The difficulties come from more abstract words and meanings, which can almost definitely not be expressed by Google Images.

[Zgarbas]

cjon256 Wrote:Here's my 2 cents:

@Zgarbas I think your bias for mastery over fluency is showing up again! :-)

I request more information regarding this statement. What bias?

(I actually use jisho.org as my main dictionary and only turn to goo when there's something that confuses me or a nuance; luckily, most words are pretty straightforward)

I don't even understand the difference between "mastery" and "fluency".

And as I've said before, I absolutely hate the debate "tactic" used here where people say something like "Oh your method is fine, unless you want to be *fluent*." That just drips condescension.

I switched to J-J dictionaries for a while so i could get more bang for my buck from my Casio, and I'd definitely say that it's paid off for me. This happens to be crammed full of useful J-J refs such as thesauruses, collocations dics, idiom dictionaries, kougo dictionaries, keigo guides, etymological dics and all sorts of other stuff besides the main dictionaries. Now I have the best of both worlds; a great J-E in the 5th Kenkyusha for probably 70% of the time, and an absolute sh*tload of other JJ references if I want to nail some aspect of Japanese to the ground... all in one hand.

I

Zgarbas Wrote:I request more information regarding this statement. What bias?

(I actually use jisho.org as my main dictionary and only turn to goo when there's something that confuses me or a nuance; luckily, most words are pretty straightforward)

You won't wiggle out of my stereotyping you that easily! ;-)

Really I was just misreading what you were saying. I withdraw the semi-humorous poke.

CJ

[How to make the switch--addressing OP's question]


Here are a few tips/options taken from other sites.
‣ Read through http://japaneselevelup.com/category/anki/
‣sentence method
‣easy sentences, i+1
‣definition on back
‣branch from [simplest] mined definition
‣take a piece of the definition if it's too overwhelming
‣more i+1 sentences
‣ I don't recommend cloze deletion for starting out with jp-jp, but you could try it.
‣Ajatt (cloze deletion with words you already know)
‣ recommended max of 3 branched words
‣Use yahoo / goo jp / jglossator


As mentioned in a previous thread, N2 is quite likely the level necessary to be able to make full use of monolingual dictionaries.

In other words, if your Japanese [reading] is strong enough and you find what you're reading interesting, you can make the "switch". [addendum:reaching the flow state while reading has been dubbed "Compelling Input Hypothesis" by Krashen]

You would be hard-pressed to say "you have to be able to reach flow"...

Use whatever dictionary feels right, only you can decide what you want to learn and if you're able to learn it.