hey guys so basically, i am in no rush to enjoy native material. my current experience is, a couple years of japanese in college, rtk, tae kim's grammar (though im going to get the manga way) and the two ko2001 books.

native material is still very difficult for me at this point, which i am fine with, but i found a lot of comfort in the organized structure of study from the material above. and i would very much prefer to stick with that path either til native material is more accessible or until i reach the end of the road of studying and am forced into native material to continue to learn.

but i am very unsure of where to go next

It doesn't have to be such a dramatic "jump", why stay away from it? Couldn't you keep using your tools but also get into some native content on the side?

Try to find things that you can comprehend the majority of, pay attention to (and SRS, if you want,) what you don't understand.

No need to be afraid of failure when you're listening or reading. Particularly when reading because you have it all laid out in front of you, to go through at your own pace.

The title of your thread says a lot. Prepping as much as possible for native material could really become an endless process.
Why not try subs2srs and don't worry about understanding every single word. In a TV series the same words will pop up again and again.

"Wait until I'm ready" often turns into "never going to happen".
I would say "the best time to start is now".

The trick is to continue your Japanese studies at a steady pace.
Don't let native material prevent take up so much time that you're unable to study the language. Read native level a little at a time. As your learn more Japanese, the native material will get easier.

You can go to kitsunekko.net for anime subtitles in Japanese.
Study them whenever you have time. But don't let it become a time sink.

Anyway, good luck.

Yep, theres no reason you can't start watching some TV now or reading some Japanese webpages already. I know how you are thinking though, I bounce back between "structured" and "lets just watch lots of TV!!" type study all the time.

As long as you are getting more and more exposure, it doesn't really matter what you do. Just keep doing something. If you keep studying exactly as you are doing now, but then watch an hour or two of Japanese TV on top of that, it can only help!

trumpet Wrote:i would very much prefer to stick with that path either til native material is more accessible

I share your feelings lol. I think learning vocabulary is the way to go in order to make native material more accessible. I'm a bit over 5k words learned and just picked up my first Japanese novel (Haruki Murakami's The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle). I could read most of the first page, but I think I'm still going to wait until ~8k. Not that I couldn't read it (with frequent look-ups), but just like you, I prefer to be better prepared.

I'm using the JLPT vocabulary lists (found on wiktionary, somewhere); I have no intention of taking JLPT tests, but any decent vocabulary list will do. Just double check the words on jisho before adding them.

I don't know how anyone manages without native material, or why anyone would want to. The whole point of learning Japanese is to understand native material, right? So why not get started already? Unless you have pretty much no vocabulary at all, there's stuff that you can understand.

Try watching a kids show and see what happens - I recommend Dokidoki Precure (I have a subs2srs deck for it, if you want it - but it's a fun show even without understanding everything they say). Or read manga focused around normal life ('ライフ' being the easiest such series I've found). It certainly can't hurt to try watching/reading things.

At what point would you consider native material to be accessible, anyway? When you can understand a kid's show 100%? When you can understand the news? There's no hard line there.

comeauch Wrote:I'm using the JLPT vocabulary lists (found on wiktionary, somewhere); I have no intention of taking JLPT tests, but any decent vocabulary list will do. Just double check the words on jisho before adding them.

Just wanted to add that this is what I'm doing now and its working suprisingly well! I took the N1 list from tanos, and then put it into a spreadsheet and randomized the list so that it wasn't alphabetical, then for every word I didn't know looked it up on jisho and added into Anki with at least one example sentence for each word. I know most of the N1 vocab anyway so it should be done with in a couple of weeks.

Kinda boring but really effective for cramming vocabulary I'm finding.

If you're not studying for the test in particular, and just want to cram generally useful vocab, I don't know why you would do anything other than use nukemarine's 'optimized' Core 10k deck.

I recommend making some online Japanese friends who know that you're a learner. This way, you can practice Japanese and kinda read native material. It shouldn't be hard because they'll probably scale down the difficulty of the talk to your level and keep it in polite form.
Good luck.

I think the main problem the people who know several thousand words, have gone through grammar books, etc., but still don't find native materials accessible have is that they're intimidated by it. And, so long as they never actually do it, they're gonna continue to be intimidated by it. No amount of SRS-ing sanitized Core sentences is going to prepare you to deal with a block of native Japanese text. Not 100.000, not 1.000.000 reviews.


Just to balance things out a little:

I'm at 1k in Core (also did Tae Kim, RtK). I can read several manga comfortably (I'm on volume three of Yotsubato! for instance, and at this point I very rarely have to consult the English version). I also read blogs, and can watch variety shows without subs.

These are all native materials, and they are very much accessible. What I did to make them accessible, aside from actual studying of pre-made materials, was to watch a lot of media (with subs), listen to a lot of comprehensible material on my Ipod (material that was comprehensible mainly because I had watched it with subs before), listen to a lot of music, read a few graded readers, and mine some words/sentences from native materials. This helped me: 1. be able to decipher Japanese text made up of known words into meaningful sentences (very hard to do, actually, at first, even if you know everything in the sentence). 2. be able to mentally handle unknown words as blanks (basically, ignore them but at the same time be aware that there's something there), and just figure out the meaning of the rest without knowing what that blank stands for. You'd be amazed at how adept your mind becomes at this, with a little practice.

Obviously, most native materials (novels, movies, many TV shows) are not fully accessible to me yet). But just cramming more vocab would do very little to make them accessible. Doing actual reading and listening is not only necessary, but far more effective at making more advanced native material accessible (and less intimidating).

P.S. I'm about to start reading a short story (a relatively easy one, but nonetheless one aimed at native adults), that I prepared for by learning the most frequent words in it using Anki. I'll let you know how it went in a couple of days.

[Zgarbas]

I, on the other hand, waited till I had 10k+ words and quite a few textbooks and grammar books under my sleeve before diving into native material (with small exceptions; I did read a few short stories and Kino no Tabi a bit earlier, but still, quite late compared to other people). I don't feel that comfortable reading things unless I already know 90% of everything. I still encounter many unknown vocab terms when reading stuff, and I find it extremely not fun. Luckily, grammar points are almost never an issue.


However, that's because I dislike reading stuff and not getting it. Different strokes for different folks and all. I don't regret waiting a year before diving into native material because now I can read novels and not have to look up things every sentence (depends on the material though), because I really hate that. I also don't find that I learn words better because I mined them after encountering them in a book rather than in a pre-made list (fail statistics are pretty much the same).

For a bit of statistics, recently out of a 94.000 character book I had 600 unknown terms (half of which were more lapsus or forgotten, rather than completely new words), and I still felt pretty down because I felt I needed more work. Just the kind of person I am, I guess.

So just do what feels right to you =). You can try easy stuff like short stories&Yotsuba just for the feel of reading native material and working on your reading speed. Or you can keep studying traditionally for a while. I think doing both would reap the greatest benefits, though.

I'm basically doing what Zgarbas did by learning a lot up front. I went through Genki I & II, Tobira and Kanzen Master 2kyuu and 1kyuu. I did 6000 words via iKnow! and so far 2000 additional out of the remaining 4600 from Core 10000. So I'm at about 8000 words out of 9600 from Core 10000. I started reading a Japanese light novel and I got hit with approximately 250 new words on the first 50 pages. This includes stuff like onomatopia, exasperations, and words that are compound words from ones I know but it's still a lot. I haven't checked yet how many of these new words are in the 1,600 words I have yet to study from Core 10000.
Basically, no matter how many words you start off with under your belt, you are probably going to be hit hard by reality when you get to native stuff. I could of started with easier manga and stuff like that but I'm not too interested in it. But the grammar prep has really helped. You'll can find N2 and N1 constructions in a light novel, even if it's fairly simple like the one I'm reading.

Hah, I think everyone is reading yotsubato! now. I ran into a Japanese friend the other day, and he's reading the English version to improve his English. I'm on volume four now. I like all the characters and their hyperbolic reactions to stimuli, especially as yotsuba experiences everything like it's new.

@zgarbas How do you feel about nuance and multiple usage/learning from context in regards to all of those vocabulary words you drill before diving into new material? I don't feel I know a word just because I learn it on Anki, but it is easier to begin to grasp it's meaning and usage if I have already learned it in a deck. The optimized deck helps for kanji meaning, because you get the underlying meaning of all words that use a certain kanji. 出 for example is a kanji I enjoy never feeling like I totally get, it is so broad, although some words like 'export' have a more literal meaning that is not so hard to get right away, and it sounds like 'you shoots!' (I remember the opposite word because it sounds like 'you knew...'

@zgarbas again: How do you go about making the word frequency vocab decks for Anki? I have gotten as far as running a text file through cb's text analyzer to generate a word frequency list. After that, do you go through the list and manually delete all of the words you know? Then how do you make the cards? Do you use add-ons for Anki that generate definitions and example sentences and a spreadsheet to create the notes? I know I should really dig in the forums and Anki manual for this, but if you point me in the right direction it'd be appreciated, as this is exactly what I'm trying to do as I dive into reading the native version of こころ (I thoroughly enjoyed the translation, so I'm excited).
よろしく

[Zgarbas]

I don't do any of that complicated stuff; I'm really lazy that way.
I went through core 6k on Iknow, then through various pre-made vocabulary and sentence decks. I was going to go through with the coreplus deck, but after deleting my anki collection by mistake I moved on to a deck called JPPI. If I see a word I know I just pass it off as easy because I don't like stopping reviews to delete cards (it ruins my flow).
When I'm not feeling lazy I also mine song-lyrics and occasional tidbits, but since I can't make rikai-sama import work on my computer for some reason I don't really mine(I'm so lazy I can't bother with installing complicated programs which would make my life easier; go figure). As I said, I don't feel any particular boost from drilling a mined word versus a pre-made list, so it's not that important for me. I do mine from the books I read with yomi-chan,though, because it is just so convenient.

While I don't feel absolutely confident in all the words I learned in anki, they are usually enough. If I encounter it in a manner in which the nuance doesn't make sense I'll look it up on goo, but usually context gives me all the info I need. I do have a problem with production, but not with recognition. Rather than focus on what the kanjis means I always learn the word first. So, say, if I'm learning 輸出 I won't think of it as transport+exit, I think of it as 輸出＝ゆ＋しゅつ＝exit. Collocations often make sense, so while in production I might stumble before saying them they make sense when reading, and in time I get used to them (the most important aspect of reading, imho. Memorizing collocations is troublesome).

Soo, yeah. I'm not exactly a model learner ^^'. I just spend lots of time studying and it worked out nicely for me so far. Persistence > Method. I don't really know which would be a good direction to point you to, other than just find out what works best for you.

By the way, There is a vocab list of the vocabulary in こころon renshuu. And then there's Yomi-chan. If it weren't for Yomi-chan I think I would've postponed my dive into Japanese literature far longer. I haven't gone through こころ yet aside from a few extracts, but in those extracts I'd average about 1 unknown word per page (~2 if you put collocations I didn't know, but were easy to figure out such as 指を折る）

Stansfield123 Wrote:I'm at 1k in Core (also did Tae Kim, RtK). I can read several manga comfortably (I'm on volume three of Yotsubato! for instance, and at this point I very rarely have to consult the English version). I also read blogs, and can watch variety shows without subs.

Are you implying you can understand these shows? Sorry, but this does not sound like truth to me given you know 1000 words >_> Or your definition of "understanding" is different.

Tori-kun Wrote:

Stansfield123 Wrote:I'm at 1k in Core (also did Tae Kim, RtK). I can read several manga comfortably (I'm on volume three of Yotsubato! for instance, and at this point I very rarely have to consult the English version). I also read blogs, and can watch variety shows without subs.

Are you implying you can understand these shows? Sorry, but this does not sound like truth to me given you know 1000 words >_> Or your definition of "understanding" is different.

Stansfield123 will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the reference to 1k in Core is purely a reference to Stansfield123's progress through Core, and not a reference to Core as others tend to use to gauge their passive vocabulary.

EDIT: for example, there are a lot of words I have come across in various manga, etc. which are not in the core deck, and yet comprehended the nuance/meaning within the context it was used.

Zgarbas Wrote:...I can't make rikai-sama import work on my computer for some reason...I'm so lazy I can't bother with installing complicated programs which would make my life easier...I do mine from the books I read with yomi-chan,though, because it is just so convenient...I do have a problem with production, but not with recognition...By the way, There is a vocab list of the vocabulary in こころon renshuu...I haven't gone through こころ yet aside from a few extracts, but in those extracts I'd average about 1 unknown word per page (~2 if you put collocations I didn't know, but were easy to figure out such as 指を折る）

Thanks! I suppose I could simply use yomi-chan. I only recently gave up on Virtual Box and found a God-send: VMWare Fusion. So I finally have a Windows virtual machine that I can use set up on my Mac, and I'm a little overwhelmed by all of the sudden options just withs CB's software creations alone.
I'll try to set up Rikai-Sama and also get going with some Yomi-chan reading and see which works best for me. When I listened to some audio tracks from Kokoro, I could easily figure out where in the book it was and follow. So I'm pretty confident that I can read it along with the audiobook and follow the story, but I wanted to make a deck so I could study vocab separately and take more of a L-R approach to the actual reading than what I imagine is a bit more like combing through the text with yomichan, but maybe I'll do both.
I too have more of a problem with production. After almost any output experience it's back to the drawing board.
I couldn't find that vocab list at renshuu, but I already made a word frequency list and it's really about time I learn how to use a spreadsheet program to make an anki deck. I guess I'm unsure if there is any way to automatically affix definitions and/or example sentences (I reckon I'd use this https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/2413435972 ?) to a list of words.
@Trumpet, I hope this is still helpful stuff for you to read and you don't feel that your thread has been hi-jacked

Tori-kun Wrote:Are you implying you can understand these shows? Sorry, but this does not sound like truth to me given you know 1000 words >_> Or your definition of "understanding" is different.

I have no idea how many words I know. I said I did 1k of Core, not that I only know those words. Besides, knowing a number of words doesn't translate directly into a certain level of comprehension of a variety show. Watching a lot of media (most of it with subs) taught me more than just words. It taught me to recognize entire sentences and common expressions (often without ever knowing what the specific words mean), and it taught me massive amounts of non-verbal communication the Japanese entertainment industry employs.

Communication in a variety show consists pretty much of everything face to face communication consists of: gestures, body language, facial expressions, voice quality, intonation, volume, speaking style, etc., etc. In fact, all those aspects of communication are exaggerated and fine tuned by participants who are more skilled than the average person in non-verbal communication, and are therefor very unlikely to send mixed or wrong signals about their message.

And that's just direct communication. Then there's the environment, people's behavior, how people look and are dressed , the actual faces and names of the participants!!! etc. (missing just this last aspect, and failing to easily recognize and know the backstory of the participants in a show, would set someone's understanding back more than not knowing a good 10 percent of the words people use).

Understanding these aspects alone (understanding which only comes with watching, and a lot of it - non-verbal communication is in fact a very complex system of communication, just as complex as any language) easily makes up 50% of everything there is to be understood about a variety show.

Then there is the fact that the language, which is at most 50% of the whole, is not just a list of words either. It's grammar too, not to mention accents and slang.

So, I guarantee you that, if you were to find someone who has never been exposed to non-verbal communication before (grew up on a desert island or something, and only had a dictionary to study), teach him 10.000 Japanese words, and you take a second person who knows only 1000 Japanese words and basic grammar + slang, but is well versed in the non-verbal communication these shows engage in (everything from gestures and speaking styles and mannerisms to Japanese fashion, habits, societal preconceptions, etc.), the first person would understand nothing and the second person would understand pretty much everything.

Obviously, that's an unrealistic scenario, and even someone who's only contact with Japanese has been Core10k would understand some non-verbal communication, but not a whole lot. Certainly not enough to follow along, just because they know all the words as spoken by the voice over professional who read those cards.

What are the goals for the people who are like avoiding native material. By that I mean what do you enjoy doing in Japanese or hope to one day enjoy in japanese or rather u should enjoy it now...

Zgarbas Wrote:By the way, There is a vocab list of the vocabulary in こころon renshuu.

Any chance you have a link? I searched every which way ( 夏目漱石, romaji version, the title), but can't find it.

I love those lists on renshuu, they make life very easy. Currently working my way through the baseball terms one. Who knew there are 133 baseball related terms.

[Zgarbas]

The kokoro vocab lists are done by mysticfive and you can find them on his profile (under Lessons Made).

howtwosavealif3 Wrote:What are the goals for the people who are like avoiding native material. By that I mean what do you enjoy doing in Japanese or hope to one day enjoy in japanese or rather u should enjoy it now...

I enjoy learning an interesting language with the goal of one day working with it and fully enjoying native material without obstructing my enjoyment of it with language barriers (also I kinda want to make a living out of translating so...). I'd much rather enjoy reading a book in 5 years than force myself to read it now, looking up every word and taking forever, for the sake of "enjoying japanese". There is a difference between avoiding native material and not using it as a study resource.

Stansfield123 Wrote:Who knew there are 133 baseball related terms.

On an unrelated note (though it is relavent to semantics), you should check out George Carlin's old bit about the language of baseball terms compared to those used in American football. Sorry @Sebastian, I mean United States of American football.

On 4chan there was some guy saying he had read 50+ LNs in the space of about 6 months, after having been learning Japanese for about a year. Not sure about the veracity of the claim or how much he really understood of them, though, but he had a nice graph of his progress, so I guess it might have been true.

dizmox Wrote:On 4chan there was some guy saying he had read 50+ LNs in the space of about 6 months, after having been learning Japanese for about a year. Not sure about the veracity of the claim or how much he really understood of them, though, but he had a nice graph of his progress, so I guess it might have been true.

Maybe he read this book