Katsuo Wrote:My suggestions to story writers:

1) If possible, make your sexual stories suggestive rather than explicit. Then how "dirty" it is will depend on the mind of the reader. Heisig and others do this.

2) Preface the story with a word like (Sexual), (Explicit), etc in brackets, e.g:

"(Sexual) While playing your shaku-hatchi, you . . ."

Then people who are scanning can easily avoid those stories (or home in on them, if they prefer).

This seems the most reasonable approach. It's just a matter of common sense.
Maybe a little function could be added to the study section, where you could check or uncheck a box indicating whether the story is sexual/explicit or not. Then the whole story would be displayed in a red frame, so that people can easily know which stories to skip if they want to.

>>If you do not like what I say, you are free to ignore it.

>I don't think the above is a practical solution:
>Someone does not know whether they will be offended/upset by
>a comment or story until after they've read it.
>By then it's too late, of course.

By then it's too late? If this person would suffer so much, then perhaps she/he is too delicate and fragile to be using the internet unaided. And implicit in this notion is that there is some sort of right or entitlement to never be offended or upset. And there is the further implication that this entitlement trumps the free speech rights of everyone else on this site. But of course, there is no such right or entitlement.

In the end, this site is a subset of the real world, with people rooted in many different traditions, cultures, religions. native languages and values. We are all different. And some of us are very different. The likelihood that someone might say something that might offend someone else is real. But I sincerely doubt that anyone actually tries to offend. Rather, as is often the case, what is offensive to one person may well be completely normal and acceptable to another. This is life.

>My suggestions to story writers:

>1) If possible, make your sexual stories suggestive rather than explicit....

>2) Preface the story with a word like (Sexual), (Explicit), etc in brackets, e.g:

But of course, many people are equally offended or upset by stories incorporating religion, ethnicity, race, gender, and on and on. And some would judge some of these to be more offensive than sex. How can anyone possibly anticipate all the possible things that just might offend someone else?

I suggest we all need to be a little more tolerant and understanding of our differences, and not be so judgmental. Further, I would suggest that offense should not be taken if no offense is intended. If you see something you don't like, just ignore it and move on. Live and let live....

And why should stories that are suggestive but not explicit, and even then depicting situations that cannot be called sick or whatever (even less than Heisig's own stories) get reported ? there are clearly some "report-happy" people out there...

"And if you can't bear the thought of messing up your nice, clean soul you'd better give up the whole idea of life, and become a saint. Because you'll never make it as a human being." (John Osborne) ;-)

[Katsuo]

Regarding tolerance...

Two opposing views in this thread:

A: Sexual stories are offensive and should be banned.
B: I should be able to write whatever I like.

Surely tolerance means not insisting that others conform to your own views.

You may disagree with, dislike, or not understand another's viewpoint, but if you are tolerant you will accept their right to it and compromise.

To say all sexual stories should be banned because you personally are offended by them is intolerant. To say people who you personally consider to be over-sensitive should not use this site or the Internet is also intolerant.

Katsuo Wrote:Regarding tolerance...

Two opposing views in this thread:

A: Sexual stories are offensive and should be banned.
B: I should be able to write whatever I like.

Acutely I think it's now three views. So you might want to add:

C: Preface possible offensive stories with e.g. (sexual), (explicit), (religious), etc.

Otherwise I fully agree with you, and thanks for suggesting the "preface-solution". Although I've seen childish use of this preface (but usage non the less), and it seems to be the best compromise so far.
So, I'm for "C", since people who want to read those marked/prefaced stories can read them as much as they like, and people who don't want to read them can circumnavigate round them. And as for gibosi's point that too many things can be considered offensive... I'm sure that people here know quite well when a story can be/will be considered offensive. No need to chastise yourself, but please be considerate.

I think Bienne, Katsuo and Gibosi have, on this page, made the three best comments regarding this subject and do fully agree with everything they have said and proposed. Furthermore, I would actually like to (but will not) quote everything Gibosi has written above, for what he has written down is precisely my own opinion on this matter as well.

"I suggest we all need to be a little more tolerant and understanding of our differences, and not be so judgmental. Further, I would suggest that offense should not be taken if no offense is intended. If you see something you don't like, just ignore it and move on. Live and let live...."

Now that, is wisdom. Let's stop making such a fuss about such a minor thing and let's start investing our valuable time into learning Japanese again!

The whole ignore it and move on only goes so far as your own sensibilities aren't hurt, as long as you don't have an issue being touched on.

For instance, if someone created a ton of kanji stories that had to do with overtly homophobic themes, I'm willing to bet many of these live-and-let-live people would cry foul.

If someone created kanji stories that put particular users' names in them, and made them the object of these sexual stories, many open-minded users would cry foul.

If someone created stories that were blatantly 'intolerant' in any particular way, many open-minded users would cry foul.

So please don't play the high-and-mighty tolerance card.

As for sexual stories, I find them incredibly immature and would love to ignore them if they weren't starred to the top of many lists. I feel like this site is populated by 8th graders who can't remember anything unless they have an erection while trying to remember it.

plumage Wrote:So please don't play the high-and-mighty tolerance card.

As for sexual stories, I find them incredibly immature and would love to ignore them if they weren't starred to the top of many lists. I feel like this site is populated by 8th graders who can't remember anything unless they have an erection while trying to remember it.

So what's that? That high-and-mighty "I'm more mature than the "8th graders" that use this site" card? Please. This thread gets more obnoxious by the page.

Khatzumoto Wrote:2. Put the fun back in it. Do your kanji stories rhyme? Are they violent and funny and full of potty humor and screaming and sassiness? If not, then are you TRYING to bore yourself? Because you might as well be. Don?t think of 女 just as ?a pictograph of a woman?, think of it as a woman with a HUUUGE bust sticking out to the left. Don?t think of 晶 as just being ?brilliant?, think of a character from Dragon Ball Z making a chi-bomb with the power of three suns (日) and screaming ?KAME HAME HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!?. Don?t think of 人 in 倫 as ?person?, think of it as Oprah, or Bruce Lee, or Eric Cartman.

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...ng-burnout

Personally, I go with the flow. I'll often select one story for some kanji but find that when I go to review it, I instead recall another one I saw, which I'll then switch over to, because the only point of the story (as far as I'm concerned) is to enable me to associate a keyword with the writing of a character. If I have a visceral reaction to a story, that's exactly what I want.

Katsuo Wrote:Regarding tolerance...

Two opposing views in this thread:

A: Sexual stories are offensive and should be banned.
B: I should be able to write whatever I like.

Surely tolerance means not insisting that others conform to your own views.

You may disagree with, dislike, or not understand another's viewpoint, but if you are tolerant you will accept their right to it and compromise.

To say all sexual stories should be banned because you personally are offended by them is intolerant. To say people who you personally consider to be over-sensitive should not use this site or the Internet is also intolerant.

I would seriously consider using a preface to sexual stories if it wasn't for the fact that "crotch" is one of the most common primitives and invented by Heisig himself. This is the clincher for me since its often hard NOT to think of a sexual story involving "crotch". This is not me being intolerant or stubborn-headed; its the firm truth.

The system, as the books are currently written, is definitely adult-oriented. I was even slightly offended by Heisig's story about "racial mixing watering down society", even though I realize that Heisig was not intending to be racist, and it was nonetheless a useful mnemonic. He was obviously going for shock value, but in terms of memory, it pays off.

Heisig clearly implies you should use stories that are either shocking or offensive at least from time to time. I also think that he would have made his own stories a lot more hardcore if it wasnt for the fact that he had publishers to convince and a reputation to uphold. (keep in mind the book originally came out a long time ago. I'm suprised he got away with as much as he did.)

I would never tell a person to go away and leave this site. Although, I certainly suggest it to the more sexually conservative folks, not out of spite but for their own sake.

Rather than a filter or even the current system of privatizing excessively reported stories, I think a warning on the home page would be much more appropriate. After all, unless you want to ban the use of the "crotch" primitive, this site will always be at least pg-13.

I firmly agree with what Dragg is saying. I've been reading this thread with some interest for some time, and I feel like it is starting to 'even out' after several people unloaded their fairly one-sided views earlier. Cheers to everyone who has enough sensibility to negotiate this very loaded matter with an open head...

Again, as Dragg states, the content we are studying is probably PG-13 by virtue of some of the keywords and radicals. Not to mention that Japanese has dirty words too! Frame 792, "longing", for example, is a very sexual word. Is it wrong, then, to create a story which is well-suited to remembering the meaning of this word?

That being said, I'm not all for a "say whatever you want to say it because it's a free world after all" like some users somewhat selfishly state. On a movie-rating scale of G (General audiences) to XXX (porno), shouldn't we try to have an idea of what is appropriate? Sexual stories work, no doubt.

I'll try to provide a hard example for this topic:
I am considering at the moment my story for "Back". It is as follows:
"Can computers be gay? I'm not sure, but mine always wears a top hat and scarf, and for some reason its back door port is always open..."

This is definitely my most explicit post, and I've considered whether I should leave it public or not. To date, it has 14 STARS and 6 REPORTS. So it would appear that it has helped more people than those that have a problem with it. As for myself, I have no mixed feelings about it, as not only did it stick in my mind like glue, but I think it's pretty funny and I think my gay friends would too. Yet I am aware of the grey area in which it firmly resides. Should it be removed?

[Katsuo]

Dragg Wrote:for me since its often hard NOT to think of a sexual story involving "crotch".

Oxford dictionary: Crotch: The part of the human body between the legs where they join the torso.

Given the definition above, crotch doesn't necessarily have to be sexual. There are dozens of stories here for most kanji now, so although anyone who wanted to avoid sexual stories with "crotch" would have a limited selection, they should still have plenty to choose from.

Quote:Heisig clearly implies you should use stories that are either shocking or offensive at least from time to time.

That's right, though he was presuming that everyone would be making stories for their own consumption only.

Quote:I also think that he would have made his own stories a lot more hardcore if it wasnt for the fact that he had publishers to convince and a reputation to uphold.

Perhaps many of his original stories were more hardcore (when he originally thought up his stories he no idea that it would later become a book).

Quote:I would never tell a person to go away and leave this site.

Quote:Rather than a filter or even the current system of privatizing excessively reported stories...

Yes, it's a shame if some people stop using the site altogether because the sexual content upsets them. It's also disappointing if helpful stories disappear because a minority object to them.

Hence my suggestion earlier about prefacing stories with a suitable warning word which should allow both parties to coexist in peace. But that would only be effective if a large majority of story writers employed it. So it may be impractical.

plumage Wrote:The whole ignore it and move on only goes so far as your own sensibilities aren't hurt, as long as you don't have an issue being touched on.

1 - Yes, I do believe it is more easy to 'ignore it and move on' as long as your own sensibilities aren't hurt. However, you seem to forget that this is the internet. A place where many kinds of people with many kinds of standards from many kinds of countries merge. -- It is not to be avoided that some people, especially those who are more sensible than others, are going to get their sensibilities hurt. -- Perhaps those people should realize that large parts of the internet, the parts where different kinds of people merge, are not for them then.

I too used to be a person sensitive to other peoples opinions and statements online... but you know what, I'm now past that stage and have gotten over all of that. You can't spend all of your time online aghast at other people's opinions, being irritated for a whole day, thinking about nothing else than your upcoming reply to this or that persons statement. It is my advice to those people who experience this when they visit this site, to get over it. For their sake, or they are going to end up mightily frustrated. I know it can be done, I did it too, so can you.

2 - "As for sexual stories, I find them incredibly immature and would love to ignore them if they weren't starred to the top of many lists. I feel like this site is populated by 8th graders who can't remember anything unless they have an erection while trying to remember it."

I beg to differ Plumage. I 'think' that people who are offended by the sexual nature of stories as found on this website are rather conservative by nature. And I do not think that there is anything wrong with that, taking in mind the overall 'pornofication' of modern day American society as we see it. However, we all do have to realize that sex in fact is one of the most normal things you can do in your life apart from eating, sleeping and breathing. Furthermore, humor based around sex is probably the oldest kind of humor there is. For it is both easy and funny (to some more than others of-course, depending on how conservative and in which society you have been brought up.) Furthermore it is also very easy to create a 'good' perverted story around a specific kanji. Now, we have something normal which is at the same time explicit which makes kanji very easy to remember. Why should we not use it? Is it not the entire reason for us to visit this website? Remembering the Kanji more easily?
In this case I would certainly say that Katsuo's suggestion of prefacing stories is the best option there is if anyone is offended by stories sexual by nature.

P.S. The thought of having to have an erection whilst trying to remember anything at all strikes me as absolutely hilarious. Going through my entire university studies with such a unique 'feature' would certainly be...interesting.

P.P.S. If anyone finds any spelling or grammar errors within my posts. Please be so kind as to correct them or to send me an e-mail so as to tell me what I have done wrong. I take pride in my ability to speak, read and write English and am trying to improve it still.

I've read bits and pieces of this thread, but I don't understand what the problem is.

As long as there isn't aren't any targeted threats or harassment, why can't you just ignore stories you don't like and move on with your life? This is a community site for sharing kanji mnemonics. If you're really offended by the fact that there are other people out there making stories that talk about crotches and backdoor ports, then you should either work alone (by perhaps, picking a story that doesn't offend your sensibilities and transferring this to an internal SRS), or reconsider what you're learning in the first place.

Kanji, and in fact, a lot of old myths and etymologies are sexual by design. There are very clear primitive and radical relationships to concepts like sex, the male reproductive organ, human copulation, etc. Most of Japan's early literature is basically pornography. For 200 years people in Japan were writing all sorts of erotic fiction and including convenient woodcut prints or manga panels in case the stories themselves weren't clear enough. Kabuki actresses (before they were banned by the government for being too suggestive in their performances) were often also prostitutes and 歌舞伎 (カブキ）used to be written 歌舞妓 (singing and dancing prostitute).

These are facts that you have to accept when you study this language.

What baffles me the most is when people report stories like Daredog3583's popular story for {704}. There's absolutely nothing offensive about it and furthermore, if you spent even five minutes at a Japanese school elementary or middle school, it would be quite clear that what he says is, indeed, something that really, truly occurs. But someone out there is offended and I just don't get it.

I know one art site, deviantArt, where you have to mark your submissions as having mature content. Of course cruelty, violence and explicit sexual content is not allowed, but given the vast number of precedents, artistic nudes are allowed but must be marked as having mature content.

So one solution is to allow users of this site to mark stories with potentially offensive content as such. Then others using it can opt to allow visibility of such content.

Not sure it's really worth all the effort, but I think it could be a solution to the problem.

Oh god, if things like this offend you then you shouldn't be crying in the first place as you'd already have some sort of a protective filter software installed (net nanny? filters out swear words and such). I don't see why *this* site has to alter its filtering schemes just because *you* don't have your net-nanny program installed.

Raichu Wrote:So one solution is to allow users of this site to mark stories with potentially offensive content as such. Then others using it can opt to allow visibility of such content.

Not sure it's really worth all the effort, but I think it could be a solution to the problem.

I second (or third? or tenth?) this. A 'do not show potentially offensive stories' checkbox would be welcome, along with an automatic reporting filter: three reports and the story is hidden using some DHTML or Java show/hide scripts or whatever, and one can click to view. That way moderators or admins don't have to manually go through and edit or delete the stories; they're hidden from view in the meantime, and whenever someone in authority wishes to look at them, they can.

I'll fifth or sixth that notion. Seems the most reasonable--you want potty humor, you can choose to see it. You don't, you don't have to. Would seem fairly easy to implement--after X reports, the post doesn't appear for people with that box checked in their profile. The rest can continue as usual.

I love how complaints against such posts are ridiculed as people "aghast" or whatever. Believe me, it doesn't ruin my day. It's just annoying for the moment. I love sex as much as anyone, but that doesn't mean I would want folks doing it in the streets (nor do you, probably). There's a time and a place for everything.

The most reasonable solution is to leave the method as Heisig intended.

Its a "shock" system in which the symbol described as "crotch" is one of more basic and frequently-used components. If you think Heisig was not thinking about sex when he came up with "crotch", then you are deluding yourself. He could have picked "slingshot" or something else...

If you need more proof that Heisig was a naughty boy with a bit more than a "potty mouth", turn to Heisig's kanji story in which the keyword is "seduce". He admitted that "beckoning" is more accurate, but he chose "seduce" because it is "less tame", in his own words. Just because Heisig candy-coats the story with fancy words like "Freudian implications" or "long slender object" doesnt change the fact that he's talking about oral sex! Using these kinds of words doesnt somehow make the reference any more tasteful, but he probably had to use them to appease publishers. The primitives are "mouth" and "sword" for crying out loud!

I'm sorry to keep posting repetitiously on this topic, but some people keep ignoring the obvious even as it is repeatedly pointed out to them. Heisig's method wasnt written for young kids or the easily-offended. To censor the site is to miss a fairly large point of what Heisig was driving after. If you allow people to choose between an explicit or clean version, many people will immediately pick the clean without realizing why the alternative could be better for them.

If people default to the clean version of the site, all of a sudden the boring and lame stories will get more votes, which will be to the detriment of the site. When I was still doing RTK 1, I would usually just pick one of the top-rated stories which were often clever and/or disgusting enough to save me a lot of time. When everyone starts voting for god-awful stories about knitting or croquet because thats all they see, you will have to spend more time digging to get to the good ones which Heisig wants you to use.

It was said earlier that Heisigs method was developed for home use with everybody staying in their own filthy world, so stop saying that sharing stories with explicit content was intended by Heisig...

I also think that shocking, or funny, akward stories, which help you remember perfectly, can be made up for every Kanji without using any sexual implications. So I do not quite understand why explicit stories HAVE to be posted in the first place.

If one has a filthy imagination thats fine with me but they do not have to share this with everyone and if people who like those stories can not make up their own - thats sad.

plumage Wrote:The whole ignore it and move on only goes so far as your own sensibilities aren't hurt, as long as you don't have an issue being touched on.

For instance, if someone created a ton of kanji stories that had to do with overtly homophobic themes, I'm willing to bet many of these live-and-let-live people would cry foul.

If someone created kanji stories that put particular users' names in them, and made them the object of these sexual stories, many open-minded users would cry foul.

If someone created stories that were blatantly 'intolerant' in any particular way, many open-minded users would cry foul.

So please don't play the high-and-mighty tolerance card.

As for sexual stories, I find them incredibly immature and would love to ignore them if they weren't starred to the top of many lists. I feel like this site is populated by 8th graders who can't remember anything unless they have an erection while trying to remember it.

Nope, it's pretty much impossible to offend me or hurt my sensibilities in any way. Feel free to put me in as many interracial gay sex hate crime stories as you want, I won't mind. You can hold me to that.

@ silmara

I never said that Heisig intended for stories to be shared, and so how can I stop saying something I never said? My claim is that Heisig clearly intended for people to make sexual stories, and I have shown proof of his precedents.

However, just because Heisig didn't intend for sharing doesnt mean that he would be opposed to it. On the contrary, he states "The aim is to shock the mind's eye, to disgust it ... in any way possible so as to brand it with an image..."

I'm pretty sure "any way possible" would include sharing stories if one were so inclined. And thats why this site (thus far) works well as a natural extension of the Heisig philosophy.

@Dragg

Here you are just being contradictory:

Quote: "I never said that Heisig intended for stories to be shared, and so how can I stop saying something I never said? ....

...I'm pretty sure "any way possible" would include sharing stories if one were so inclined."

Yes the intention is to shock YOUR mind's eye with YOUR own stories. He never said that you should share stories and you simply cannot conclude it from his statements, even if you so wish it, so please stop using him.

Anyway I wish not to continue this personal discussion. I made my statement clear, you made your statement clear. Lets leave it like that.

@ Silmara

No, he said "the" mind, not "your" mind ... And "any way possible" which is really as simple as it sounds. I'm not using him. I'm just repeating what he said and drawing obvious conclusions. However, I will shut up now before this debate takes an even more childish tone.

Edit: But one last thing... (sorry, I can't resist ) Heisig never intended for RTK to be exclusively home-based. In fact he discussed the possibility of classroom usage in the introduction, but he dismissed the idea because he didn't see how the indidivual versus group pacing issue would be solved. In fact, I'm sure he'd be pleased to know that an Alaskan university classroom has made use of the book and this site for their curiculuum. Not once does Heisig express concern that RTK in a group setting could offend people too much to make sharing explicit stories off-limits.

Why are we quoting and debating Heisig's words like they're scripture and need interpreting to be applied as universal truths? I know some people take this method kind of seriously, but I didn't know we were actually going to found a church.

Do some of these other threads count as blasphemy? Oh crap! Forgive me Heisig, for I have sinned...