Personally this is why I prefer sentences. Anything is good though, obviously.

Quote:Holy crap, this couldn't be further from the truth.

There have been a few criticisms of the list I compiled, but it is unclear to me what the major flaws are. Is the list too optimistic? ...too pessimistic? or is the mere idea of such a list is absurd?

I would be very interested for some practical input on how to make my list more useful. I am curious about what I can expect at certain milestones of my own study. As well as being able to temper people's expectations who ask me. If anyone cares to offer constructive improvements, I would be very happy if you did.

PotbellyPig Wrote:This is not correct. Especially the point that with core7k you can read a Japanese novel with minimal lookups. I did Core 10k and then read 12 light novels which added an additional 5,000 words to my anki deck. At 15,000 words the look ups have started to slow down some what. I guess it also depends on what your definition of minimal means.

It sounds like you averaged 2-4 lookups per page. Is that more accurate?

yogert909 Wrote:it is unclear to me what the major flaws are.

I think it's too optimistic. For example, when I say I've finished Core6k I mean that I have around 6k Japanese words in my passive vocabulary. Most of the words I wouldn't be able to use in conversation. This is okay since I mostly just read. But I still need to look things up & sometimes I guess word meanings incorrectly. Also, the jumps in Japanese ability are more pronounced at the earlier levels than later on.

However, if by your list you mean active vocabulary, I think it's more reasonable.

Thanks anritsi,

I mean it in the same (passive) sense that you do. I hear what you're saying. If you'd care to make suggestions (eg. "what you have for 7k should really be 10k or 12k"), I'd appreciate it.

It's a bit too hard to be able to put concrete numbers on it. Since I have focused on reading, the 7k reading level is what caught my eye. I can only talk about my own experience. I learned a little under 10,000 words when I read my first light novel and I used yomichan to do it so I could easily add words to anki. I think I added around 750 words for that one light novel. And that's a light novel, which are basically meant for middle schoolers I would think (maybe a little higher, I am not sure). An adult novel would probably differ. And the list is looking at Core in a vacuum. To read a novel without getting confused, you need to know grammer. There will be a lot of N2 and even N1 grammar patterns in any light novel as well. N1 patterns are not really any more difficult to learn than N2 patterns, it's just how the JLPT test spreads them out. There may be some light novels out there specifically for younger Japanese readers but I haven't targeted them.
Of course, as someone suggested, you don't have to look up every word. I was using yomichan so I did. I haven't reached there yet, so I don't know at what word level minimal lookups would be for light novels. I'm at about 15,000 words in my deck now and the look ups have slowed down a little. Maybe someone with more experience can answer.

Thanks Potbelly, I appreciate your comments (and your moniker!).

I just realized where part of the discrepancy is coming from. When I wrote core #k I was referring to the core sentences. So presumably n number of sentences would contain more than n words since each sentence contains multiple words. On the other hand many words are used multiple times, so it's hard to say how many words. Either way, if one were to practice reading the core sentences, I hope it's fair to say that they would learn some grammar along the way. So hopefully that's not considering vocabulary in a vacuum.

I was hoping that it would be implicit that other practice is involved besides learning n number of vocab. For instance, I'm considering that by 4k sentences, one would have stumbled through "beginner Japanese media" that was outlined in the 3k milestone. Also implicit is the obligatory four word YMMV but my goal is to give myself and others a rough set of benchmarks to understand better how much work is involved to get to where they want to go. I will try to make the list more clear in a future draft as well as making explicit the implicit.

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btw, congratulations on learning so much! 15k words seems like mt everest to me as it's taken a lot of effort to even get to ~2k and several hundred sentences. I'd love to be able to read even the most simple japanese book right now!

Okay assuming you understand the grammar in the sentences at the end of the Core series, I would think it consists of a lot of grammar up to N3 level. I would add that you would need a smattering of N2 and N1 grammar when you read novels. I haven't quite reached 15,000 words yet but that is the number of words in my deck after adding vocabulary from the light novels I read. I took a break from reviewing new words for a while. I think I'm at a bit over 11k now. Don't worry about the number you are at though. It grows pretty quickly soon enough.

If anyone is interested in helping to make a better list, I've posted it on google docs for anyone to edit. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x3Xt...sp=sharing

yogert909 Wrote:Thanks Potbelly, I appreciate your comments (and your moniker!).

I just realized where part of the discrepancy is coming from. When I wrote core #k I was referring to the core sentences. So presumably n number of sentences would contain more than n words since each sentence contains multiple words. On the other hand many words are used multiple times, so it's hard to say how many words. Either way, if one were to practice reading the core sentences, I hope it's fair to say that they would learn some grammar along the way. So hopefully that's not considering vocabulary in a vacuum.

I was hoping that it would be implicit that other practice is involved besides learning n number of vocab. For instance, I'm considering that by 4k sentences, one would have stumbled through "beginner Japanese media" that was outlined in the 3k milestone. Also implicit is the obligatory four word YMMV but my goal is to give myself and others a rough set of benchmarks to understand better how much work is involved to get to where they want to go. I will try to make the list more clear in a future draft as well as making explicit the implicit.

--

btw, congratulations on learning so much! 15k words seems like mt everest to me as it's taken a lot of effort to even get to ~2k and several hundred sentences. I'd love to be able to read even the most simple japanese book right now!

If you meant sentences it kind of flips into understatement instead of overstatement. At 1K sentences "can recognize familiar words on TV
however no real understanding of what’s going on in even the most basic Japanese conversation." is a huge understatement. You can easily breeze through basic dialogue at 1K sentences.

Edit: I was thinking in terms of a self-made sentence deck.

ryuudou Wrote:If you meant sentences it kind of flips into understatement instead of overstatement. At 1K sentences "can recognize familiar words on TV
however no real understanding of what’s going on in even the most basic Japanese conversation." is a huge understatement. You can easily breeze through basic dialogue at 1K sentences.

Haha, that kind of made me chuckle. I like threads like this because its impossible to agree, because there are far too many unknowns here. No-one really knows *exactly* how many words they know, and those words won't be the same one as another persons, and then one persons "struggle" reading something is another persons "breezing through".

But let me give an opinion too because its fun. First let me just explain the point of study I'm up to.

I have completed the full core 10k, but I didn't do most of it by going through core - I read and studied other things and then went through core afterwards learning the words I didn't already know. So I skipped 2k entirely, probably a lot of 6k was new for me (at the time) and I recently finished 10k and probably 25-30% of the words in there were new for me but the rest I already do. Its difficult to estimate but I'd probably peg my vocabulary at somewhere between 12,000-13,000 words at this point.

I've also been through the entire of the anki grammar deck (cant remember its name, its just thousands of sentences), and have gone through every grammar point in all the N1 books I have. My Kanji has always been fine and my current anki deck has 2509 unique characters in.

Now for how helpful its been. At 1k (ish) I think the majority of everything seen on TV was just noise, I think its true you don't really know whats going on around any conversations most of the time.

At 2k - 3k it becomes possible to talk about simple things and have a conversation flow. I know this because I'm probably around here for my Chinese, and me and my girlfriend (speaking Chinese) get along just fine. I've found some TV drama shows okay to watch if they have subtitles, but that's only for *very* simple dialogue and I can get lost extremely easily.

I think somewhere around this point one can start reading things like manga, but there is going to be a lot to lookup. I read probably all of Dragon Ball around this point, which is a relatively easy manga and I could get through it learning a lot on the way.

I think around 6k the world starts becoming more fully accessible, you can get through internet forums or articles and can read simple books and things, but you will still need to be using rikaichan or something often and doing lots of lookups. For me reading at this level was probably still a bit frustrating, although I understand some people could enjoy it.

I think reading is far more fun 10k and beyond, where even though there are words you don't know - you can start to really infer from context what they probably mean. That and if you don't look words up, you don't feel like you are 'losing' too much of the story, and its okay not to bother looking up as you still understand anyway.

For me now I can play games like FF XIV with complete ease and don't misunderstand any of the ingame quests and such, and I'm reading 1Q84 (well I keep saying this, its been ages since I last read any of it but I digress..) and its very comfortable to read. I keep a highlighter and just highlight any words I don't know, which is often 0 per page but sometimes 1 or 2 new words. Not a big deal.

As for TV I just need to practice my own listening skills, because I know they aren't really saying many words I don't already understand, but sometimes I still struggle taking it all in at native pace. That said I can watch pretty much anything and feel comfortable that I'm not missing out on much of what is happening, even if there are the occasional expressions or dialogue I didn't catch.

Sorry I ended up typing far too much here ...

I can't really vouch for sentences, only vocab. But my cards included the sentences for core6k, at least, though not beyond that. They were pretty bare-bones sentences. I have my doubts you're getting much more out of it by focusing on them. I think the big difference would be if you'd actually mined the sentences yourself, because that takes more time and effort and the sentences would tend to be more complex.

But I crossed out the 7k thing still, because I'm skeptical. If we agree minimal is like ~2 unknowns per page, it seems a bit too hopeful for that point. Also, I'd say 10k is getting to about 95%+ in general. For reference, I'm at 13k vocab, but I just got there. I want to defer judgement on what that means until later. I haven't powered through 12 LNs like potbellypig, so I need more experience. So far though, it feels like where I am now is basically my own 'minimal lookups' point.

I think 7k is well in the sort of 'diminishing returns' region where its hard to notice much of a difference your efforts are producing unless its on a large time period (all the while you'd be improving your level anyways). So it will be hard to differentiate from 6k. However, it would be good if someone who was more engaged with reading at the 7k point came in and gave their input.

Thanks haych, nightsky, ryuudou, potbellypig, anritzi and probably someone I'm forgetting. What you said is helpful to me so I'm sure it will be helpful to others. I'll try to synthesize what you've said into the list and come back with something better. In the meantime, feel free to edit the list like crazy or use the comment tool if you think something is inaccurate.

Haych Wrote:I can't really vouch for sentences, only vocab. But my cards included the sentences for core6k, at least, though not beyond that. They were pretty bare-bones sentences. I have my doubts you're getting much more out of it by focusing on them. I think the big difference would be if you'd actually mined the sentences yourself, because that takes more time and effort and the sentences would tend to be more complex.

But I crossed out the 7k thing still, because I'm skeptical. If we agree minimal is like ~2 unknowns per page, it seems a bit too hopeful for that point. Also, I'd say 10k is getting to about 95%+ in general. For reference, I'm at 13k vocab, but I just got there. I want to defer judgement on what that means until later. I haven't powered through 12 LNs like potbellypig, so I need more experience. So far though, it feels like where I am now is basically my own 'minimal lookups' point.

I think 7k is well in the sort of 'diminishing returns' region where its hard to notice much of a difference your efforts are producing unless its on a large time period (all the while you'd be improving your level anyways). So it will be hard to differentiate from 6k. However, it would be good if someone who was more engaged with reading at the 7k point came in and gave their input.

Hmmm... "minimal lookups" is different depending on the individual. If you consider a 275 page light novel, 2 per page (the pages aren't that big), that's 550 look ups. I did a check in my deck and the last book I read added 318 words for a 275 page book. So that's close to one lookup per page but it still comes out to 318 word additions. This is for a deck with 15,000 words. One per page may be considered minimal to some. I guess I would like it to be even lower than that.

I've changed that line to:
"~7k sentences
Can begin to read Light Japanese novels with several multiple dictionary look-ups per page."

Does that sound more accurate? Or do you think that's still too optimistic for 7k sentences?

PotbellyPig Wrote:Hmmm... "minimal lookups" is different depending on the individual. If you consider a 275 page light novel, 2 per page (the pages aren't that big), that's 550 look ups. I did a check in my deck and the last book I read added 318 words for a 275 page book. So that's close to one lookup per page but it still comes out to 318 word additions. This is for a deck with 15,000 words. One per page may be considered minimal to some. I guess I would like it to be even lower than that.

My wife has lived in the states longer than she's lived in Japan, did undergrad and phd in an american university and she still probably has 1 lookup on most pages. Geez, some things I read, there's a word on every page that I don't know and I've been english only since birth. In fact, I have a GRE word deck that I probably don't know half the words in. That's very Japanese of you to be critical of yourself though. It's a noble goal you'd want to get the lookups even lower, but I'd consider your current level outstanding.

yogert909 Wrote:I've changed that line to:
"~7k sentences
Can begin to read Light Japanese novels with several multiple dictionary look-ups per page."

Does that sound more accurate? Or do you think that's still too optimistic for 7k sentences?

Since several can mean like 4 or 5, I think it's okay. It should be a little vague anyway because it's impossible to know exactly. If we are talking about light novels, I know there are some that may be easier to read than others as well, so there is no way you can pinpoint it.

Cool. Thanks. I appreciate your help.