^But it's not the same as not understanding what it means -- that was my point.

Quote:Also, most of the unknown 10% are specialized terms or terms related to certain fields,

This are the most important words, and that's why I prefer learning from reading stuff that interest me, and then expanding my horizons, rather than learning the 6000 most common words occuring in the Asahi newspaper.

Stian Wrote:Aspiring: beyond the first 2000 = 80%, I wouldn't count on that statistics being correct, as they are taken from a minimum number of different souces.
Also:

Quote:You're confusing frequency with importance for understanding meaning. A kanji's frequency of appearing has little do with how important it is for understanding. In fact, you could make the case that frequency and importance have an inverse relationship. The less frequent kanji are probably more important because they are only used when they are necessary. The same goes for words.

[...]

You do realise that if you know 90%, every tenth word be unknown?

If you were studying English and had a 90% understanding, you would have needed to look up 11 or 12 words.

There's a novel frequency analysis report somewhere, and the ratios were similar.

+Jim Breen's database has 25k words in its frequency database; Russian lexemic dictionary estimates 25k as 99% coverage, Shakespeare used up to 30k words.
(all irrelevant, but comparable)

The analysis gets my point across, even if it may be off by a couple thousand words.

It's just an analysis. Whatever path you take in language learning, the words you learn will roughly follow the order of word frequency. (It may not reflect a newspaper analysis, but you get my point.) Take 'frequency' with a grain of salt, ie use it for informative purposes.

I agree there are diminishing returns in the very long run, but there are accelerating returns beforehand.

I imagine usefulness goes something like this:

Logistic Curve

^On a side note: what can't you do with Google these days?

[RawToast]

Quote:~2k - NHK Easy news difficult

At ~1300 I can relate to this, NHK news is really hard for me.

*Necro spell used*

I'm interested in this topic, so I brought it back to life.

I'm at around 300 in Core 6k but I have a relatively substantial (maybe 800-1500 word) vocabulary and maybe N4- N3 grammar as I have used sentence decks/textbooks etc. before this. I have already tried Core and I failed badly because I sped through it too fast, (500 words in 5 days) so soon I was drowned by reviews so this time I'm doing 50-100 for the first couple of days as I know most of the words and then I'll slow it down. Hope to have it done before the New Year.

uisukii Wrote:^On a side note: what can't you do with Google these days?

A month or so ago, they introduced a new algorithm that's better at parsing natural language. Obviously when we say "plot 1/(e^(-x+5) + 1) from x = 0 to 15" we don't really want a graph, we're just looking for the most popular ways of using the word "plot" and the numbers 0, 1, e, 5, 15.

Core6k is awesome, so good luck this time Hirakana. Personally I stopped at 1000 and went on to sentences though. Oh and careful with necro. Bored mod on the lose.

ryuudou Wrote:Core6k is awesome, so good luck this time Hirakana. Personally I stopped at 1000 and went on to sentences though. Oh and careful with necro. Bored mod on the lose.

Thanks! I think this thread still has discussion value though, but if a mod wants to shut it down, that's their decision.

[s0apgun]

ryuudou Wrote:Core6k is awesome, so good luck this time Hirakana. Personally I stopped at 1000 and went on to sentences though. Oh and careful with necro. Bored mod on the lose.

Your post was reported. The content of your post is much different than this. Don't be salty.

s0apgun Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:Core6k is awesome, so good luck this time Hirakana. Personally I stopped at 1000 and went on to sentences though. Oh and careful with necro. Bored mod on the lose.

Your post was reported. The content of your post is much different than this. Don't be salty.

.... What?

[Zgarbas]

Whenever a mod takes any action (deleting/closing/editing) people get mad and usually make an angry reply and/or mention it somehow on a different thread.
In this case, ryuudou mentioned a thread which was closed due to a really overdue and irrelevant necro, and soapgun explained why that happened.

Urbandictionary defition of "salty"

Oh ok. I kind of meant the "don't be salty" part lol.

s0apgun Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:Core6k is awesome, so good luck this time Hirakana. Personally I stopped at 1000 and went on to sentences though. Oh and careful with necro. Bored mod on the lose.

Your post was reported. The content of your post is much different than this. Don't be salty.

I'm not salty, nor am I angry. I posted in 4 or 5 threads today as the koohii forums need as much activity as they can get (compared to 2008-2010 it's really dead nowadays), and I could care less if one thread was closed. If anything the two mods in here taking the casual remark in my reply to Hirakana personally and derailing the thread seem to fit that definition more.

Have to say I agree with Ryuudou on this one.
EDIT: But let's not fight. We should get back to discussing the ultimate power of the Core Deck.

Hirakana Wrote:*I'm at around 300 in Core 6k but I have a relatively substantial (maybe 800-1500 word) vocabulary and maybe N4- N3 grammar as I have used sentence decks/textbooks etc. before this. I have already tried Core and I failed badly because I sped through it too fast, (500 words in 5 days) so soon I was drowned by reviews so this time I'm doing 50-100 for the first couple of days as I know most of the words and then I'll slow it down. Hope to have it done before the New Year.

As you stated, 100 words a day in anki will absolutely kill you in reviews. I like to keep it to about 33 words a day to keep reviews in moderation, and even then, after a few months, the reviews will stack up.

Hirakana Wrote:*Necro spell used*

I'm interested in this topic, so I brought it back to life.

For me the benefits of Core became pretty noticeable around the 3k range. I'm 200 cards away from finishing the deck now and it's made a major difference in my native media consumption, but I'll save that write-up for the other Core thread.

[RawToast]

Quote:For me the benefits of Core became pretty noticeable around the 3k range.

I sure hope that is the case for myself Things do get easier on tadoku each time I try reading.

RawToast Wrote:

Quote:~2k - NHK Easy news difficult

At ~1300 I can relate to this, NHK news is really hard for me.

Well, since I will be over 2k for the October challenge I'll see how this goes.

I've compiled a list of comments from various threads that boils down what people have said into a handy list of milestones. Hopefully someone will find it useful:

~core1k
can recognize familiar words on TV
however no real understanding of what’s going on in even the most basic Japanese conversation.

~core2k
can follow along(with extreme difficulty) simple Japanese media (NHK Easy news, Simple Anime)

~core3k
Getting Easier to consume beginner Japanese media

~core4k
Moderate difficulty following regular Japanese
Can follow along with basic anime
Can understand about 80-90% of a regular NHK news article and 90-95% of an NHK easy article.
can read young adult graphic novel about 90%

~core6k
Can read 80-90% of words in a Japanese magazine or newspaper depending on how technical
Basic conversation is difficult, but not impossible

~core7k
Can read Japanese novel with minimal look-ups

~core10k
Can read interesting articles and have meaningful conversations.

yogert909 Wrote:I've compiled a list of comments from various threads that boils down what people have said into a handy list of milestones. Hopefully someone will find it useful:

~core1k
can recognize familiar words on TV
however no real understanding of what’s going on in even the most basic Japanese conversation.

~core2k
can follow along(with extreme difficulty) simple Japanese media (NHK Easy news, Simple Anime)

~core3k
Getting Easier to consume beginner Japanese media

~core4k
Moderate difficulty following regular Japanese
Can follow along with basic anime
Can understand about 80-90% of a regular NHK news article and 90-95% of an NHK easy article.
can read young adult graphic novel about 90%

~core6k
Can read 80-90% of words in a Japanese magazine or newspaper depending on how technical
Basic conversation is difficult, but not impossible

~core7k
Can read Japanese novel with minimal look-ups

~core10k
Can read interesting articles and have meaningful conversations.

This is not correct. Especially the point that with core7k you can read a Japanese novel with minimal lookups. I did Core 10k and then read 12 light novels which added an additional 5,000 words to my anki deck. At 15,000 words the look ups have started to slow down some what. I guess it also depends on what your definition of minimal means.

[RawToast]

Perhaps you've just provided the next step PotbellyPig

RawToast Wrote:Perhaps you've just provided the next step PotbellyPig

Perhaps.... Maybe the step where you're not looking up words like crazy. I used the iKnow! site for the first 6,000 words and their description of what you can do at the 6,000 word level are ridiculous. I don't think most people realize when they start that you need a ton of words if you don't want to use the dictionary much. I'm hoping that by the 20,000 word level it really slows down, but I think I saw a post by someone who already studied 20,000 words that they are still adding 30 words a day if they constantly read.

PotbellyPig Wrote:I used the iKnow! site for the first 6,000 words and their description of what you can do at the 6,000 word level are ridiculous.

I was wondering if anyone else was misled by those descriptions! Broke my heart when I figured out they weren't exactly accurate.

iKnow.jp Wrote:1k: Mastering these 1,000 items and sentences will give you the vocabulary and sentence patterns to function in most everyday situations.

2k: Not only will you understand dialogue in most basic situations, you’ll also start to develop skills for reading on your own.

3k: The Core 3000 is suitable for intermediate and upper-intermediate students of Japanese. Mastering all 3,000 items and sentences of the Japanese Core 1000, 2000, and 3000 will put you in a position to start reading Japanese without the assistance of dictionaries.

4k: The Core 4000 is suitable for upper-intermediate students of Japanese. Mastering all 4,000 items and sentences of the Japanese Core 1000, 2000, 3000, and 4000 will allow you to function independently in most contexts.

5k: The Core 5000 is designed for advanced students of Japanese who are confident in their speaking and reading skills, but who want to dive deeper into Japanese literature.

6k: The Core 6000 is designed to help advanced students reach a level where they can read difficult materials on their own. Students who master all 6,000 words in the Japanese Core category will be well on their way to mastering Japanese!

yogert909 Wrote:~core6k
Can read 80-90% of words in a Japanese magazine or newspaper depending on how technical
Basic conversation is difficult, but not impossible

I was gonna say, I think this one at least seems accurate. 80-90% can be a bit of a bumpy ride, and that's pretty much how I felt after core. And yeah, I'd say its a good preparation for some basic conversation.

The problem is after that, when it sounds like you're progressing to mastery by/before the 10k mark. I'd say you're getting good by that point, but still seeing new stuff pop up pretty frequently.

PotbellyPig Wrote:I'm hoping that by the 20,000 word level it really slows down, but I think I saw a post by someone who already studied 20,000 words that they are still adding 30 words a day if they constantly read.

If your policy is "add literally every word I come across that I haven't added already", I believe it. But statistics like that are kind of a downer, Potbelly. If you keep that policy, eventually the entire language will be in your deck.. You don't need the entire language in your deck to be good at the language.

iknow Wrote:5k: The Core 5000 is designed for advanced students of Japanese who are confident in their speaking and reading skills, but who want to dive deeper into Japanese literature.

Ok I gotta admit, I giggled a little at this one. It's hard to disagree with those iknow descriptions though, because of the way they are (cleverly) worded. They don't name any numbers, its all just how you feel about your level.

[s0apgun]

yogert909 Wrote:I've compiled a list of comments from various threads that boils down what people have said into a handy list of milestones. Hopefully someone will find it useful:

~core1k
can recognize familiar words on TV
however no real understanding of what’s going on in even the most basic Japanese conversation.

~core2k
can follow along(with extreme difficulty) simple Japanese media (NHK Easy news, Simple Anime)

~core3k
Getting Easier to consume beginner Japanese media

~core4k
Moderate difficulty following regular Japanese
Can follow along with basic anime
Can understand about 80-90% of a regular NHK news article and 90-95% of an NHK easy article.
can read young adult graphic novel about 90%

~core6k
Can read 80-90% of words in a Japanese magazine or newspaper depending on how technical
Basic conversation is difficult, but not impossible

~core7k
Can read Japanese novel with minimal look-ups

~core10k
Can read interesting articles and have meaningful conversations.

Holy crap, this couldn't be further from the truth.

Core6k is a good base for feeling comfortable enough to move on to reading native material. You still won't understand anything without appropriate grammar. There will be plenty of words you still don't know. You won't know Japanese yet but you'll know a bunch of Japanese vocabulary that most likely won't show up often enough for you to feel like you learned anything from Core6k. IMHO, you can start reading native material comfortably after 3k words. The rest is a lot of business vocabulary that you'd need for reading NHK News or something.

Reading ability does NOT equal speaking/conversation/production/writing.

I think a lot of people on this forum go through this thing where its like oh I learned X now I can do anything! I know I went through it with RTK and then Core6k only to realize oh hey I still don't know Japanese after all those things I read on koohii. Learning the language requires much more than just SRS, you need to read a lot and speaking practice in real life situations before its ever going to click for you.