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Arupan Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:

Quote:Are you going to the party? (It doesn't matter what I do, but are YOU going?)
Are you coming to the party? (I AM going to the party, are you AS WELL?)

That's the way that it works in English, but I don't think it works like that in Japanese.

Ummm... that's exactly how it works? ^^;

I don't believe it does. In Japanese, you don't use 来る unless you are physically at the party when you say that, or if it's your home (or similar) where the party is. Otherwise you use 行く even if you are going as well.

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Arupan Wrote:Ask one of your Japanese friends if you need to check but I'm 100% sure you can say it. 明日学校来る？ for example

Why do you have to check with your friends? All you have to do is go to google Japan and search that sentence and see the results that come up. There's your answer right there.

Realism Wrote:

Arupan Wrote:Ask one of your Japanese friends if you need to check but I'm 100% sure you can say it. 明日学校来る？ for example

Why do you have to check with your friends? All you have to do is go to google Japan and search that sentence and see the results that come up. There's your answer right there.

Google results should be taken with a grain of salt though -- not all results are from native speakers, and not all native speakers will write perfect Japanese.

"明日学校行く" -- 約 900,000 件
"明日学校来る" -- 約 73,700 件

The latter is far less common, but there's still enough to the point where it seems like it might not be wrong; maybe it offers a nuance which is just not used as often. But on the other hand, it could just be a common mistake. Here's a discussion on their usages. As one user says, 最近、おかしな日本語が町中にあふれていますから、混乱しますよね。

Arupan Wrote:Ask one of your Japanese friends if you need to check

So... that's exactly what I did. I asked my husband because I was agreeing with Yudantaiteki and he basically agreed with him as well. He said the only times you would say パーティ来る？ is
1. if you are at the party now and calling the person to ask if they are coming
2. you are the one throwing the party
3. you are the one throwing the party and you are asking about another person. For example, ゆうなさん(a mutual friend who was also invited to the party)も来る？

But he said if you are talking with a friend about someone else's party and whether or not they are going you would say　パーティ行く？

headphone_child Wrote:

Realism Wrote:

Arupan Wrote:Ask one of your Japanese friends if you need to check but I'm 100% sure you can say it. 明日学校来る？ for example

Why do you have to check with your friends? All you have to do is go to google Japan and search that sentence and see the results that come up. There's your answer right there.

Google results should be taken with a grain of salt though -- not all results are from native speakers, and not all native speakers will write perfect Japanese.

"明日学校行く" -- 約 900,000 件
"明日学校来る" -- 約 73,700 件

Well...if you see it that way....then no native Japanese speaks perfect Japanese....so what's the point of asking his friends then? They probably don't speak perfect Japanese either....no one does.

Use google has saved me so much time, chances are that they are from native Japanese people, I'd rather just copy what they say

http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/...1388734903

That seems to say that at least some native speakers feel like it's OK to use it in the "english" way but the first answer there is that for 学校に来る you have to be at school when you say it.

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He is 33 but I fail to see how that has anything to do with age. He is not speaking slang. It's a matter of how the words iku and kuru are used in Japanese. I have a hunch that if I were to ask his 60+ year old parents their answers would be the same.

But, it is not my intention to get into an arguement. I asked a native as you suggested someone do. If you don't like their answer then that is certainly your right.

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Arupan Wrote:I was told the above rule

What is the rule? I'm still not very clear on what you think it is.

Quote:without being at the specific place

Never once has anyone on here said that you have to be at the specific place to use kuru.

Quote:I was nice enough to point you there's an exception.

Exception to what exactly? Like I said before. I don't really understand how you think kuru and iku are used in Japanese.

Do you actually speak Japanese? If you don't, when you start doing so, these kind of 'problems' become irrelevant, just to let you know, don't waste time on this.

Marumaru Wrote:Do you actually speak Japanese? If you don't, when you start doing so, these kind of 'problems' become irrelevant, just to let you know, don't waste time on this.

Why do they become irrelevant?

Arupan Wrote:Now let's check in English just for the laughs:

"are you going to school tomorrow"　約 7,980,000 件 （0.15 秒）
"are you coming to school tomorrow"　約 46,200 件 （0.14 秒）

Are you sure you can say "coming to (somewhere)" in English? Sure doesn't seem like it.

That's odd. While growing up and attending various high schools; students, parents and teachers seemed to use these terms interchangeably, regardless of context. I'm honestly surprised to see such a difference in results.

Language can be funny like that, I guess.

My native language has equivalents of 来る・行く (przyjść/iść) that are used pretty much as theirs Japanese counterparts, which makes the issue somewhat non-existant for me, but for those who are less lucky, DoBJG has a good explanation on usage of 来る・行く (p. 220):

“If the movement is towards a place where the speaker can place his viewpoint, kuru is used, but if a movement is towards a place where the speaker cannot place his viewpoint, iku is used.
In Exs. (a) and © both kuru and iku are acceptable. The difference is that the use of kuru shifts the focus of the sentence to the hearer's viewpoint while iku shifts it to the speaker's viewpoint.

Exs.
(a) ナンシーはきのうパーティーに来ましたか。
© もし、もし、家内が来たらすぐ帰るようにと言ってください。„

yudantaiteki Wrote:

Marumaru Wrote:Do you actually speak Japanese? If you don't, when you start doing so, these kind of 'problems' become irrelevant, just to let you know, don't waste time on this.

Why do they become irrelevant?

Most language related "problems" go away with familiarity, because of the way languages come to be. They're more of a result of a bottom up process than top down rules everyone is forced to follow (patterns become established because they're popular, they're not popular because they've been established).

Hence, the kind of "rules" that aren't obvious and would require dedicated effort tend to get ignored by the population, and replaced with rules that are obvious. So, with familiarity, these rules become obvious to newcomers as well.

Stansfield123 Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:

Marumaru Wrote:Do you actually speak Japanese? If you don't, when you start doing so, these kind of 'problems' become irrelevant, just to let you know, don't waste time on this.

Why do they become irrelevant?

Most language related "problems" go away with familiarity, because of the way languages come to be. They're more of a result of a bottom up process than top down rules everyone is forced to follow (patterns become established because they're popular, they're not popular because they've been established).

Hence, the kind of "rules" that aren't obvious and would require dedicated effort tend to get ignored by the population, and replaced with rules that are obvious. So, with familiarity, these rules become obvious to newcomers as well.

But my point was that I have more experience with this language and Japan than most people on this board, but I still make these basic mistakes. So when do the rules become obvious for me and the problems become irrelevant?