Not all of them of course, but some are ridiculously annoying. They always want to speak Japanese non-stop, won't stop talking.....it almost seems like they're trying to show off or something.


Makes you not wanna talk to them at all.

I assume you only mean non-Japanese people that are fluent lol.

I have only run into people fluent in the language online, but I never got any impression that they are more arrogant than anyone else.

If someone is willing to work long and hard enough to gain fluency in a language aside their native one, they can speak it for as long as they damn well like. Or to put it from my perspective: I've spent 25 years of my life only speaking English, and I'll be sure not to make that mistake again.

...@ topic

You guys think the topic is serious? It was posted in the General Discussion forum...

OMG YES I'VE NOTICED!!! There was some SEVERE narcissism going on in my Japanese classes in college. Them speaking only Japanese isn't a problem, it's the attitude behind it. It has nothing to do with fluency, but the individuals themselves. Which is exactly why I go out of my way not to be a douche-bag to new Japanese learners. I know I'm not the only one either. A friend of mine (who speaks perfectly fluent Japanese now) was told by a guy once to just give up on Japanese because he would NEVER be able to know as much as he does and there was NO WAY that he could pass the N2. Needless to say, he never gave up and turned out fine I despise this elite-ism crap more than anybody in the world. My advice is to get away from these people ASAP and to just study on your own if that is your only option. The good thing is that Japanese people aren't arrogant about speaking Japanese

Edit: When you actually become fluent yourself, these people will never matter. I think that some people just get a high off of putting in more study time than others.

Of the few people I've met that I think I'd call fluent, I've never felt that. Certainly no one telling anyone else to just give up, those kind of eggs are rare here I think.

I'm wondering if much of it is rather misperceiving though. Language ability can be a touchy subject, many learners who put in a lot of time and effort can easily feel put down when others succeed seemingly much easier than themselves.

I'm not fluent myself, but a lot of the Japanese learners I'm getting to know through university (exchange students and learners social meet-up) probably perceive me as arrogant--being the only independent learner but still more conversational and accurate than most of themselves, who study it full-time. It seems like everybody is convinced that you can only sufficiently learn a language through academical formal study, and then I come along having to say that I've been learning through "listening and reading a lot", and I can tell they're really confused.

I mean, if they wanted me to explain more in-depth I'd tell them about Krashen's hypotheses and resources on here etc, but I couldn't do that without in any way coming down on the effort they're putting into the uni courses. They're full-time courses that they're using up student allowances for. Telling them that they could actually learn Japanese--possibly more effectively--while still doing other productive things... They'd probably rather not listen to me and decide that I'm an ass or something.

I realize that this venting does makes me seem very arrogant... >.> but it's... <.< it's difficult to be humble when you're always right lolololol
(Seriously though, I'm friendly towards everyone but I won't pretend to be worse at Japanese if I happen to out-speak anyone.)

I find it to be the intermediates that are arrogant, the guys that THINK they're fluent. The same c*nts usually refuse to acknowledge other foreigners when they see them in Japan. The country certainly has a weird effect on people.

I just hope you would go out of your way to help students out with their mistakes vs. just telling them that they "suck" "sound too much like a textbook" and "should just give up now" etc. It's fine to suggest a different study method but it's not right to just completely try to shut someone down.

まじっすか？

Hashiriya Wrote:I just hope you would go out of your way to help students out with their mistakes vs. just telling them that they "suck" "sound too much like a textbook" and "should just give up now" etc. It's fine to suggest a different study method but it's not right to just completely try to shut someone down.

I don't know if you're directing that at me, but in any case I don't tell anyone things like that. That sounds like broken personality more than too much confidence in your Japanese ability.

Me, I'm not fluent, I make mistakes too. As long as we're not talking about learning methods we are still in the same boat. It's like this because, being the only one who has one, I find it difficult to tell about input-based approaches without being perceived as:
(If they don't believe I can succeed)
- arrogant
- naive
- stupid

(If they do believe I can succeed, but see me as a special case)
- some kind of genius
- a freak
- blessed with DNA predisposed to learning languages

^If you're familiar with Krashen for example, there's ofc no reason to assume you would be any of the above just because you can acquire a language independently. I just can't explain it in words to that level of convincement myself.

I'd like to try recommending fun things to do in Japanese for those who are interested though. The other day I told about 実況プレイs to someone who likes video games, it would be cool if they got into them because I've thought they're great.

Especially a problem in Japan. Every day when I walk around I'm surrounded by people showing off their Japanese.

Hashiriya Wrote:OMG YES I'VE NOTICED!!! There was some SEVERE narcissism going on in my Japanese classes in college. Them speaking only Japanese isn't a problem, it's the attitude behind it. It has nothing to do with fluency, but the individuals themselves. Which is exactly why I go out of my way not to be a douche-bag to new Japanese learners. I know I'm not the only one either. A friend of mine (who speaks perfectly fluent Japanese now) was told by a guy once to just give up on Japanese because he would NEVER be able to know as much as he does and there was NO WAY that he could pass the N2. Needless to say, he never gave up and turned out fine I despise this elite-ism crap more than anybody in the world. My advice is to get away from these people ASAP and to just study on your own if that is your only option. The good thing is that Japanese people aren't arrogant about speaking Japanese

Edit: When you actually become fluent yourself, these people will never matter. I think that some people just get a high off of putting in more study time than others.

You said it better than I could, it's the condescending attitude that I find to be really disrespectful.


I'm not fluent or anything (close I guess), but I find it much better to just tell people that I don't speak any Japanese and just get on with it.

[Zgarbas]

The most annoying/arrogant about their fluency I've met were around N3 level though... The kind of people who make fun of people who failed the N5 whilst talking non-stop about their wonderful experience at the N3 (which they failed anyway), or who never even looked at the JLPT sample tests because they'd instantly pass any test.

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:^If you're familiar with Krashen for example, there's ofc no reason to assume you would be any of the above just because you can acquire a language independently. I just can't explain it in words to that level of convincement myself.

I have no idea what/who Krashen is, but believing you have to be autistic or have super-DNA to learn a language outside of university courses sounds really stupid to me. When I finally decided to start studying this language more actively, I spent 30 minutes of doing research on the Internet before I was convinced that self-study is the way to go.

Just use their arrogance as motivation. Four years ago, I was surrounded by people who had studied abroad and supposedly really knew Japanese and they made me feel stupid when asking questions about simple Japanese. I used the anger from those experiences to become better than them. Today, I know for a fact that I am a better speaker of Japanese and can certainly understand more than any of them.

Whatever you get, from any situation, turn it into motivation to be better.

I can imagine what you mean, and I wonder if it's not the case for people learning other languages too. You get elitists with anything that requires consistent practice, e.g. guitar, sports etc. I can imagine, conversely, that it would be pretty annoying to be Englished up by gaijin when you're hanging out with Japanese people and trying to assimilate though. The lower-level guy could also feel bitter/inadequate no matter what the other guy tries to do. Part of it could just be perception, but you do get jerks everywhere.

There's always some douche around who thinks they know more than they actually do, all while seeking self-validation for this by trying to convince you just how good they really are. Turns up in all walks of life. Just smile, nod and go about your business.

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:I realize that this venting does makes me seem very arrogant... >.> but it's... <.< it's difficult to be humble when you're always right lolololol

I don't think that you seem arrogant. I think the problem might be that unsolicited advice tends to come off as obnoxious and end up falling on deaf ears. If they ask you, or you can tell that they're interested, this shouldn't be a problem. If not, there's not really a lot you can do about it anyway.

Mind if I ask, where are you at in Sweden? I'm studying in Stockholm atm, and the learners I hang out with in school seem pretty laid back, certainly not only studying the language formally.

sethg Wrote:Just use their arrogance as motivation. Four years ago, I was surrounded by people who had studied abroad and supposedly really knew Japanese and they made me feel stupid when asking questions about simple Japanese. I used the anger from those experiences to become better than them. Today, I know for a fact that I am a better speaker of Japanese and can certainly understand more than any of them.

Whatever you get, from any situation, turn it into motivation to be better.

Good advice.

In addition to some people being arrogant, another problem is that for some reason it's really easy to be touchy about one's own ability. Sometimes people who speak less Japanese than me want me to translate things for them, and I try to judge the relative ability of my friends and translate if I think the situation calls for it and they probably didn't understand. But people get offended easily if you translate something for them and they didn't need the translation, because you're taking a little language victory away from them, and they feel like you're not acknowledging their efforts and ability properly. I've certainly done this by mistake before.

I know the feeling myself, because I've been in the situation where people have translated for me when I didn't need it, and it can be pretty off-putting.

Actually, I had a weird one the other day. My girlfriend doesn't speak English, so we use only Japanese. I went to go meet her in an English-style pub and she was talking to a group of Brits I'd never met. She gave me a big hug and introduced me as her boyfriend when I walked it. After I got a drink and sat down, she said something and the guy with the best Japanese of the Brits translated what she said to me. To be fair, he hadn't had a chance to guage my ability since he just met me a moment ago, but in my head I was like, "Did you really just translate something my girlfriend said to me?" I felt like, based on the fact that he knows my GF doesn't speak English, shouldn't he assume I speak Japanese and know what's going on?

But, I'm quick for forgive stuff like that, and realized he didn't mean anything by it, and we got along fine.

Anyway, this awkward touchiness of language learning makes the arrogance of some even worse for learners.

Tzadeck Wrote:Actually, I had a weird one the other day. My girlfriend doesn't speak English, so we use only Japanese. I went to go meet her in an English-style pub and she was talking to a group of Brits I'd never met. She gave me a big hug and introduced me as her boyfriend when I walked it. After I got a drink and sat down, she said something and the guy with the best Japanese of the Brits translated what she said to me. Too be fair, he hadn't had a chance to guage my ability since he just met me a moment ago, but in my head I was like, "Did you really just translate something my girlfriend said to me?" I felt like, based on the fact that he knows my GF doesn't speak English, shouldn't he assume I speak Japanese and know what's going on?

But, I'm quick for forgive stuff like that, and realized he didn't mean anything by it, and we got along fine.

Who knows, maybe that guy was trying to show off the fact that he understood Japanese to his friends? Either way, sounds like it wasn't a big issue in your case.

Guoguodi Wrote:Who knows, maybe that guy was trying to show off the fact that he understood Japanese to his friends? Either way, sounds like it wasn't a big issue in your case.

My take on it at the end of the evening was it was because he's really used to doing it. He's lived in Japan for more than ten years, and so did most of his friends that were there that night, but it seemed like he was the only one of them who was any good at Japanese. They were nice guys, but definitely living in an expat bubble to a surprising extent. Only a couple of times have I met people who seemed so sheltered from Japan after so many years. I'm not judging by the way; I don't mind if people choose not to actively assimilate into any culture.

I don't think he was showing off because at that particular moment no one else was really paying attention, and he looked right at me. Not to mention, they all seemed like close friends who understood that his language ability was the best among them.

Suppose I have some sort of Japanese language experience, though not really arrogance. The other night, on a poetry forum of all places, someone came across a comment I left somewhere, explaining something about Japanese (as it was sort of the topic), and I used a sentence as an example of how things don't necessarily translate black and white. Anyway, in this sentence example, which wasn't specifically addressed to anyone, I used だよ at the end of the sentence, and out of the blue someone commented that when discussing things with strangers I MUST use ですよ instead. I asked why and it turns out this person was a 25 year old girl from Japan. We ended up having a very short and limited text based dialouge, to which she concluded that my ability was 日本語上手ですね！ Although it's not, but I understand the set phrase well enough to at least be glad she didn't say that she didn't understand what I was saying

Though, from a arrogance perspective, what I've found is not so much Japanese learners, but people whom take an interest in Japan (okay, in 少年アニメ; let's be honest) whom will use Japanese, a phrase, a name, etc., without really understanding what it means, and if you try to point out the error and give simple advice, they tend to get rather aggressive, as though their lack of knowledge is somehow not to be tested.

I don't really have a lot of experience with actual Japanese learners though. When it comes to those people they probably have far more experience with the language than I do so I'm probably paying more attention to certain patterns and phrases they employ; something new, as opposed to caring too much about their attitude.

But yeah, I honestly thought this thread as a joke topic. Wasn't aware such arrogance existed. Consider me coloured naive, lol

I've just come back from signing up to the Japanese club at my graduate school. It's the first time I have ever joined a Japanese club, and I am interested to see what the general level is of the members. There are quite a lot of Japanese international students in the club, but I think most of the others will be undergraduate domestic students.

I don't consider myself fluent in Japanese, but other people may, so I'm not really sure what it's going to be like once I go along to a conversation class etc. If the overall level of other non-Japanese students is lower, I don't want to be arrogant in the sense that I basically don't talk to these students, but then again while I am there to meet people, I am also there to continue improving my own Japanese. In all honesty I hope the focus is on speaking Japanese more so than anime/manga because I have zero interest in both and I do get ever so slightly annoyed when people who are a bit "otaku" (for lack of a better word) imitate anime when speaking Japanese.

uisukii Wrote:to which she concluded that my ability was 日本語上手ですね！

This is when I usually lose interest in talking to a Japanese person. It's such a stock phrase and they always say it before I've even shown how shitty my Japanese is. It just irritates me to no end for some reason. And yeah, I was surprised you thought it was a joke topic, I thought I was just stupid (I deleted my post as a result).

My personal pet peeve, and I don't think it's an arrogant thing to say, is when people try to type in romaji. Full sentences of romaji. Makes me want to blow my brains out.