uisukii Wrote:

kainzero Wrote:the only pet peeve i have is when a non-japanese speaker corrects a japanese speaker's roomaji.

like seriously
wtf is their problem

Ahahaha... serious? Pardon my French, but that sounds retarded. I'm not really sure how I would respond to something like that. Probably not in English, at least. Do you come across that often? It sounds like really, really strange compensation.

don't see it much anymore, since i hardly interact with japanese learners, let alone japanese learners in a place where japanese people can only type roomaji.

but every time i see it...

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:Just curious, what things did you read during those 30 minutes?

The principles of RTK and that it's a book that's best suited for self-study (and thus not used at universities), and how to use Anki. Then after starting with that I eventually ran into this site by googling for more RTK stuff where I found out about pre-made Anki decks and stuff like that, then I was completely convinced.

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:(If they don't believe I can succeed)
- arrogant
- naive
- stupid

(If they do believe I can succeed, but see me as a special case)
- some kind of genius
- a freak
- blessed with DNA predisposed to learning languages

Lol This has a lot of truth in it.

Off-topic,

uisukii Wrote:...come across a few people who call themselves something-"san", thinking that is how you are supposed to address yourself).

Does anyone find this hilarious? I do, and I feel bad because I'm still a beginner, I just can't bring myself not to laugh at this. "Hello, I'm Saif-san!".

^Not all that long ago, a certain something-"san", I was chatting about this with didn't find it very hilarious. To the point in which they stated their absolute knowledge, my arrogance for saying something contrary, then ever so politely explaining that it would be best if I were to never contact them again.

Needless to say, it was hilarious.

Well what happened to me was that I was chatting with some folks in some chat room in Japanese, and there were some dude who was fluent I guess.

But basically I mostly just copy and paste sentences from other Japanese websites and just modify them a little so I come off sounding natural.

And I wrote this pretty long sentence I just pasted from some website, just changed a word or two, and that guy called me out saying my Japanese sounded retarded.

I'm like "are you ***** kidding me? I just copied this from another Japanese website. " I was so mad.

Many people that try to start learning Japanese are the cringy "Japanophiles" that think the world revolves around manga, samurai swords and prepubescent anime girls. That personality type is annoying because it assumes that everything associated with Asian culture is superior to all other cultures in some way. While most Japanophiles don't have enough stamina to learn anything more than a few Hiragana characters, a few of these creatures might become fluent. In that case, they are bound to be douchebags. But usually people that are arrogant about being fluent in Japanese would be arrogant even if they weren't fluent.

I DO think Japan and the Japanese has a tendency to draws more "wahjah" (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wahjah) individuals.

That's a very... angled interpretation of the term.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanophile
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-phile

Realism Wrote:I'm like "are you ***** kidding me? I just copied this from another Japanese website. " I was so mad.

do u thnk all nativ sentcs r equal????????????????????????????????????????????

i'm cool with the -san thing if they're beginners. people are nervous as hell when they start talking.

LittleFishChan Wrote:Many people that try to start learning Japanese are the cringy "Japanophiles" that think the world revolves around manga, samurai swords and prepubescent anime girls. That personality type is annoying because it assumes that everything associated with Asian culture is superior to all other cultures in some way. While most Japanophiles don't have enough stamina to learn anything more than a few Hiragana characters, a few of these creatures might become fluent. In that case, they are bound to be douchebags.

now that i am older and wiser i don't mind these people at all and it's kinda annoying to keep making fun of them over and over

Realism Wrote:Well what happened to me was that I was chatting with some folks in some chat room in Japanese, and there were some dude who was fluent I guess.

But basically I mostly just copy and paste sentences from other Japanese websites and just modify them a little so I come off sounding natural.

And I wrote this pretty long sentence I just pasted from some website, just changed a word or two, and that guy called me out saying my Japanese sounded retarded.

I'm like "are you ***** kidding me? I just copied this from another Japanese website. " I was so mad.

If you are just copying sentences from other websites then you might easily end up sounding strange. Conversations flow together with the same level of language and without constant repetitions of things already understood in the context, which your copies may have missed.

He was probably right and you were probably wrong.

kainzero Wrote:i'm cool with the -san thing if they're beginners. people are nervous as hell when they start talking.

Talking is a lot different than typing out and posting on the internet, though.

Sometimes Japanese learners over-estimate their ability and really should eat a slice of humble pie and take on the advice and criticism of more advanced learners and native speakers.

^ せやなーぁ

uisukii Wrote:If someone is willing to work long and hard enough to gain fluency in a language aside their native one, they can speak it for as long as they damn well like. Or to put it from my perspective: I've spent 25 years of my life only speaking English, and I'll be sure not to make that mistake again.

This.

**** OP and everyone else in this thread- The following rant is not meant as a personal attack towards you. Nor am I claiming to be fluent.****



Look I GET what the OP is trying to convey. He/she feels like they are being braggy and in-your-face about it.

But if somebody worked their ass of and gained fluency in a language, why on earth would they NOT want to speak it all the time? Why would they spend all that time learning it if they didn't want to use it?

Sometimes I feel braggy just for TELLING people about my Japanese progress. I feel like a nuisance. And that's not really fair now is it?

I have the right to be good at things too, right?
I have the right to love things, right?
I'm a human being with hopes and dreams like everybody else, right?
So what's so wrong with ME having a hobby, a project, a PASSION?


I don't appreciate this type of "jealous village-idiot" mentality where people turn their backs on someone just for being a little passionate about something. Since when is passion a bad thing?? Since when did being completely blasé (!!!!!!!!!!) take precedence?

When did being "MEH" about everything become so cool??

How is it's OK for people to spend an entire summer smoking pot and staring out the window but when finally desiring to learn something and reaching a productive goal all of a sudden you're bracketed into being an arrogant show-off ?

WHY is it "OH SO horrible" to take pride in something you've learned??




*takes a deep breath and realizes that everyone in the room is staring at me*

An arrogant person is not someone who's proud of an accomplishment, it's someone who acts as if they have some ability or knowledge that they in fact don't. A fluent Japanese speaker can't be arrogant about basic, spoken Japanese. If they're fluent, that means that they know what they're talking about, and they're right to correct those who don't.

But they can still be arrogant when discussing Japanese culture, history, etc. Fluency in Japanese doesn't make you an expert in everything Japan related.

Realism Wrote:Well what happened to me was that I was chatting with some folks in some chat room in Japanese, and there were some dude who was fluent I guess.

But basically I mostly just copy and paste sentences from other Japanese websites and just modify them a little so I come off sounding natural.

And I wrote this pretty long sentence I just pasted from some website, just changed a word or two, and that guy called me out saying my Japanese sounded retarded.

I'm like "are you ***** kidding me? I just copied this from another Japanese website. " I was so mad.

In light of my explanation on what arrogant means, which actions would you say best fit the word: someone's who was copy/pasting sentences to make themselves sound more than they are, or someone's who spotted a fake and called him out on it?

Your post is so ironic I first thought you're being sarcastic.

^ I don't know where you are getting your definition from, but assuming a certain importance of your abilities over others, in an exaggerated or overbearing or insolent manner is not the same as playing up something which does not exist.

Your explanation of arrogance reaches beyond the origins and normal definition of the act of being in the state of arrogance/being arrogant, without any particular reasoned basis.

It is entirely possible for a fluent speaker of a given language to be arrogant about the basic, spoken form of the language of which they are fluent in, as arrogance/being arrogant, is a response in comparison to others, based on the opinion of the merit of one's own value in a given aspect. It is mentally placing certain aspects of oneself above that of another, irrespective of an object measure.

Which is as to how one can also be humble about their abilities, etc.

[Random] definitions of 'arrogance': [edit: not separate meanings]
: an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions
: exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner
: showing an offensive attitude of superiority
:　Stansfield123

Examples:
・ She's first in her class, but she's not arrogant about it. [ ← note that possibility exists]
　
Synonyms:
assumption, haughtiness, high horse, huffiness, imperiousness,　pomposity, presumptuousness, pretentiousness, self-importance, superiority,

Related Words:
authoritativeness, bossiness, brag, dominance, high-handedness; condescension, disdain, scorn; chest-thumping, inflation, self-assertion； attitude, impertinence, impudence; boastfulness, bombast, braggadocio, triumphalism, vaingloriousness; cockiness, conceit, egoism,　self-centeredness, self-satisfaction, smugness, swelled head, vanity; superiority complex

Come to think of it, I haven't even met any non-Japanese people who I'd consider fluent. Only seen on TV or heard through from gossip. Dunno where OP found his population sample from.

Stansfield123 Wrote:In light of my explanation on what arrogant means, which actions would you say best fit the word: someone's who was copy/pasting sentences to make themselves sound more than they are, or someone's who spotted a fake and called him out on it?

Your post is so ironic I first thought you're being sarcastic.

Can you see how your style of communication might be considered arrogant? (And strangely lacking in basic social skills, imo.) Hint: It's not just bc you were a bit mistaken about the meaning of the word "arrogant".)

Well aren't we piling irony on irony now...

But more seriously, Stansfield, I would sincerely love you to see you spend a bit of time improving your communication skills, and less time confusing your personal experiences and opinions with universal truths, imposing them on us at every opportunity, and never hesitating to proclaim others wrong or respond rudely. To me, it shows an astonishing lack of consideration for others - especially on a learning site such as this. You have an exaggerated sense of the quality of your advice and your authoritative-sounding style means others have to waste time counterbalancing it. If you could just tone it down? Please?

You've been receiving a fair bit of similar feedback from others here. I hope you'll consider whether you can learn something from it (rather than just lashing out at your critics). You seem generous about wanting to help and have some sensible ideas amongst all the superficial puffery. But if you alienate your audience, who will you be sharing those ideas with?

dizmox Wrote:Come to think of it, I haven't even met any non-Japanese people who I'd consider fluent. Only seen on TV or heard through from gossip. Dunno where OP found his population sample from.

There is a pretty large population living within Japan which are sort of seen as not "true" Japanese, and these are largely those (even born in Japan) with Korean parents and/or recent ancestry, and I'd consider them fluent. Then again, I wouldn't really consider them as non-Japanese.

That wasn't really a serious comment, though, merely a bit of a poke at one of those older lingering xenophobia issues in the mindsets of a smaller portion of Japanese. There's kind of a similar thing in Australia, so the parallels sort of stick out a bit.


ANYWAY, yeah... back to topic.

It's probably due to me hanging around people my own age and not international business person / professional academic types...

Dizmox, I'm curious if you meant that non-business types your own age are less likely to be fluent or less likely to be arrogant?

In my experience, most (older) business/academic/govt types who use Japanese in their work aren't particularly invested in their identity as "fluent Japanese speakers" and don't feel compelled to show off or lord it over others. If anything, they identify with their work and Japanese is just a means to accomplish those goals.

They're not likely to post youtube videos of themselves speaking, spend time on Japanese related forums seeking recognition or admiration, or engage in "fluency" competitions. They're not trying to sell their 'exceptional' results (and, in doing so, unjustifiably dissuading people from alternative approaches.)

I think it's similar to the many multilingual folks here who don't really see their linguistic skills as a big deal. Or people who marry into and raise families in a foreign language environment. It's hard for me to imagine them saying "Hey, look at me! I can talk to my kids and neighbours!"

I also think that trying to use Japanese for life and work has a humbling effect. Even after several years, many people recognize that they're not going to be 'native-like': there's always more 'unknowns' and room for fine-tuning the 'knowns'. There are awkward moments. And they don't want to be self-conscious about people assessing their Japanese skills when they're trying to focus on the job at hand. So perhaps that creates more mutual support ("I feel your pain") rather then one-upmanship?

Not sure how much that's a function of age, though. It seems more related to attitude/purpose/personality.

It's a matter of degree too, isn't it. A little friendly competition can be fun and motivating. Most people admire the commitment it takes to learn a foreign language. The excitement of being able to use a new language is only natural.

The internet has certainly helped make language learning an accessible goal for more people. But ... I can't help but feel it has also created these social pockets centered around language learning stars or extremists, rather than the language itself. Educational community building is fantastic, but sometimes the quality of information suffers a bit and the dialogue veers away from the ultimate goal. Ideally, accessibility and quality will move in tandem.

Oops, didn't mean to write an essay... :-) [Edit: I also didn't realize I was repeating some things mentioned earlier in the thread.]

@OP: As for someone who tells you your Japanese sounds "retarded"? I'd make a mental note not to take anything they say seriously. Hopefully they're a more decent person IRL.

Quote:I also think that trying to use Japanese for life and work has a humbling effect. Even after several years, many people recognize that they're not going to be 'native-like': there's always more 'unknowns' and room for fine-tuning the 'knowns'.

It also helps if Japanese isn't your first second language. People with less useful native languages have to learn English to succeed, yet maybe 0.000001% or less become 'native-like'.

It teaches a person to be satisfied with imperfection (which isn't a bad thing). Of course that shouldn't mean one stops learning completely. Just that they will end up fluent at best and that's that.

English speakers with Japanese as their first second language seem to have a harder time accepting this, or set their 'acceptable' goals much higher.

I mean probably the reason I don't meet anyone foreigners who are that great at Japanese is because the only foreigners I talk to in Japan are relatively international exchange students and it would be unreasonable to expect them to be (what I consider to be) fluent yet.

Onara Wrote:*takes a deep breath and realizes that everyone in the room is staring at me*

That's just because your name is fart.

Nothing wrong with passion- let the haters hate. I wish I could find my passion again...