egoplant Wrote:I feel like I'm the only person on this forum that just does expression of the front, meaning on the back. It seems the most logical way to me.

Something like:

FRONT

いや、そろそろ 帰[かえ]るよ…


BACK

no by and by/now go home/leave (emph.)
"No, I'll be going on home now." (PL2)

...that?

Nope, something like:

可愛い
ーーーー
かわいい
(adj-i) cute

What I meant was, I feel like I'm the only person that does vocabulary, and not sentences. If you want to read sentences, it seems like you should just read native content, not SRS them. I guess you could make the same argument for vocabulary too though.

egoplant Wrote:If you want to read sentences, it seems like you should just read native content, not SRS them. I guess you could make the same argument for vocabulary too though.

The first sentences is implying a false dichotomy; why not SRS native content?

Your second sentence hints at the truth, though. If you could comfortably understand sentences and memorize vocab while just reading a book or watching tv you'd do that instead, but until you reach that point, most people gain a lot by breaking it up into smaller, easier pieces first. Then once you've SRSed a large number of the sentences and/or vocab for a book/show, tackle the real thing in full.

egoplant Wrote:Nope, something like:

可愛い
ーーーー
かわいい
(adj-i) cute

What I meant was, I feel like I'm the only person that does vocabulary, and not sentences. If you want to read sentences, it seems like you should just read native content, not SRS them. I guess you could make the same argument for vocabulary too though.

I only do single words, never sentences. Sometimes I'll put an example sentence on the back of the card so I can see the word in context but usually I just put the English translation. Once you're reading real Japanese (online, novels, textbooks) everything makes sense.

egoplant Wrote:Nope, something like:

可愛い
ーーーー
かわいい
(adj-i) cute

What I meant was, I feel like I'm the only person that does vocabulary, and not sentences.

I see, I see. For a short period I was doing as you've shown, but found it harder to remember readings without more context. Once I reach the stage where I would be comfortable with single word vocab cards, I'd probably end up using Anki purely for output and daily writing practice, and focus on vocabulary directly from manga, light novels, novels, Japanese internet forums, blogs, etc., as I tend to find myself gravitating around these things anyway.

JunePin Wrote:How do you know every member of Ajatt+ has abandoned the method? That sounds a bit out there to me, and every follower of PORAB no longer uses it? How do you know this, can you show your sources? Otherwise I don't think you can truthfully claim that the method hasn't been used since 2010 on his super secret forum and 2012 in the public, I know many people still using normal single sentences including myself. I personally never linked MCDs because they took too long to make and review. Also I read so much that it didn't make sense to me.

june what are you even talking about. All i was mentioning was people saying ajatts method doesn't work when the ajatt canon doesn't include the part that they're saying doesn't work. You can't say that a current method doesn't work because the past form of it didn't work. You seem to be confusing the blog/method AJATT with anyone who's ever glanced at or implemented a part of it. MCDs dont work for you that's fine, nowhere did i say that's the only way one can learn, people need to find the way that works for them, might be vocab might be sentences might be clozes, might be something wholly new we havent even thought of yet none of these is "wrong" just different paths to the same goal

stratzvyda Wrote:june what are you even talking about. All i was mentioning was people saying ajatts method doesn't work when the ajatt canon doesn't include the part that they're saying doesn't work. You can't say that a current method doesn't work because the past form of it didn't work. You seem to be confusing the blog/method AJATT with anyone who's ever glanced at or implemented a part of it. MCDs dont work for you that's fine, nowhere did i say that's the only way one can learn, people need to find the way that works for them, might be vocab might be sentences might be clozes, might be something wholly new we havent even thought of yet none of these is "wrong" just different paths to the same goal

Canon? You are acting as if Ajatt is some kind of religion or a strict set of laws or principles that one must adhere to if they are follow Khatzumoto's blog. I don't know what you are talking about when you say "ajatt canon". Many people have been influenced by khatz's blog as well as many other blogs and forums when it comes to self-study. I'm not sure how some people don't count in your book. I guess they are't "true believers"? holy-wow.

I think even khatz himself has said don't use the parts of his ideas you don't like and do use the ones you do like (which would seem obvious cause it's a guy just giving advice, not some religious guru trying to tell you how to reach nirvana). So that should extend to MCDs, some people like them and some chose to keep doing simple sentences because that worked fine for them. I don't know how that goes against "ajatt canon". This is a troll right? it's got to be... first couple posts since registering in here, this can't be for real.

^"canon" could simply be a term used to describe the basic principles outlining the nature of what the author of AJATT refers to in respect to all Japanese, all the time.

You both seem to be basically in agreement with each other, but stumbling over the particular usages of certain terms. By saying something 'goes against the ajatt canon', in this context, it could be easily implied that stratzvyda, is suggesting that, as I believe is explained within the post, that finding what works best for the individual is the aim, and that strict adherence for the sake of a dogmatic approach to any method is not the goal mindset behind the "AJATT method".

No need to get flustered when you are basically in agreement.

uisukii Wrote:^"canon" could simply be a term used to describe the basic principles outlining the nature of what the author of AJATT refers to in respect to all Japanese, all the time.

You both seem to be basically in agreement with each other, but stumbling over the particular usages of certain terms. By saying something 'goes against the ajatt canon', in this context, it could be easily implied that stratzvyda, is suggesting that, as I believe is explained within the post, that finding what works best for the individual is the aim, and that strict adherence for the sake of a dogmatic approach to any method is not the goal mindset behind the "AJATT method".

No need to get flustered when you are basically in agreement.

I agree with you, and I'm not flustered. Stratzvyda seems to have been judging by her response. She did say that "10000 sentences hasn't been used in AJATT+ since 2010, and ajatt public since early 2012" though, which is simply not true. I know people in + using it, I had access to the forums for a brief period last year as well and there were people saying they don't use MCDs there. Simply is not true.

travis Wrote:10000 sentences should just be a by-product of reading larges of text. Who would be better at a language: the person who reads a million sentences and creates a 10000 sentence deck, or the person who reads 10000 sentences from a pre-made deck?

Someone reading five million sentences and doing 50.000 in Anki would be even better. Does that mean this should then be the new method for learning Japanese? No. The point is to determine the minimum necessary amount of active study, before being able to use a language. After that, one continues to learn automatically, through actual use of Japanese.

I always looked at AJATT as the method for desperate people (not as a pejorative, but as someone who desperately needs to learn Japanese ASAP). That is what that massive volume of Anki reviews, 24/7 immersion, and all the new ideas as well, are meant to expedite.

But if in fact you realize that another 4-5 months of extra time before fluency isn't going to kill you, you don't need to make that massive effort. Well, you do need to make the first portion of it (around a third of it, maybe half, but definitely not 10.000 sentences). But, after that, there are much easier ways to continue learning the language (like reading, and media). And, finally, when actual use of the language, written and spoken, is possible, active studying should stop altogether. You don't even need to be in Japan to use Japanese, you can just interact with native Japanese people online.

uisukii Wrote:^"canon" could simply be a term used to describe the basic principles outlining the nature of what the author of AJATT refers to in respect to all Japanese, all the time.

You both seem to be basically in agreement with each other, but stumbling over the particular usages of certain terms. By saying something 'goes against the ajatt canon', in this context, it could be easily implied that stratzvyda, is suggesting that, as I believe is explained within the post, that finding what works best for the individual is the aim, and that strict adherence for the sake of a dogmatic approach to any method is not the goal mindset behind the "AJATT method".

No need to get flustered when you are basically in agreement.

You're the first person I ever met who seems to understand this kind of thing. Most ridiculous, stupid arguments I've seen on the internet seem to be, not about some subject matter, over which there is usually agreement, but some tiny little definition of a word, which could, objectively, be interpreted both ways. People get extremely angry over these things because for some reason they seem to believe that any term can have some strict meaning, and only that, and that this should be universally accepted.

Whenever you mention this to them, for some weird reason, you don't even get argued against. You don't even get acknowledged. It is infuriating. You simply get ignored, even though you presented them with the solution to their problem in which both of them are correct, and just presenting two different viewpoints.

Zlarp Wrote:You're the first person I ever met who seems to understand this kind of thing. Most ridiculous, stupid arguments I've seen on the internet seem to be, not about some subject matter, over which there is usually agreement, but some tiny little definition of a word, which could, objectively, be interpreted both ways. People get extremely angry over these things because for some reason they seem to believe that any term can have some strict meaning, and only that, and that this should be universally accepted.

Whenever you mention this to them, for some weird reason, you don't even get argued against. You don't even get acknowledged. It is infuriating. You simply get ignored, even though you presented them with the solution to their problem in which both of them are correct, and just presenting two different viewpoints.

That's because they're not looking for a solution to a problem, they're looking to prove the other guy wrong. Can't do that by agreeing with them.

[RawToast]

uisukii Wrote:

egoplant Wrote:Nope, something like:

可愛い
ーーーー
かわいい
(adj-i) cute

What I meant was, I feel like I'm the only person that does vocabulary, and not sentences.

I see, I see. For a short period I was doing as you've shown, but found it harder to remember readings without more context. Once I reach the stage where I would be comfortable with single word vocab cards, I'd probably end up using Anki purely for output and daily writing practice, and focus on vocabulary directly from manga, light novels, novels, Japanese internet forums, blogs, etc., as I tend to find myself gravitating around these things anyway.

I do vocab the same way; however, I also have a 3 of sentence decks for grammar at the same time. I modify the sentences to include susbsitute words I know if I feel any unknown vocab introduced is not useful.

I also use iknow, but will only do so untill my sub runs out!

[Zgarbas]

I also have simple vocab decks, but also sentence decks*. The combo works just fine for me.

*+renshuu vocab or kanji-only decks.

Yes, I agree. His method is good and it worked for him. It may or may not work for us. But he did put in a LOT of resources in a list on the left side. Just find one that you are interested in (for example, Keyhole or NHK?), try it out for some time to see if it works for you. If not, go back to his list and find another one

sherlock Wrote:It may or may not work for us.

My study experience doesn't provide an increase in Japanese proficiency for anyone else. Who are being specified by the usage of "us"? :/

SendaiDan Wrote:

egoplant Wrote:Nope, something like:

可愛い
ーーーー
かわいい
(adj-i) cute

What I meant was, I feel like I'm the only person that does vocabulary, and not sentences. If you want to read sentences, it seems like you should just read native content, not SRS them. I guess you could make the same argument for vocabulary too though.

I only do single words, never sentences. Sometimes I'll put an example sentence on the back of the card so I can see the word in context but usually I just put the English translation. Once you're reading real Japanese (online, novels, textbooks) everything makes sense.

Vocab is the only way I've ever done SRS. Tried sentenced, but never liked 'em. I started using Anki, and now I use Skritter for daily writing and reading practice. That, plus as much online and book reading and I can do, works well for me.

YOU ARE NOT ALONE.

Reading this thread is like listening to my deaf grandparents argue with each other. moreover getting so worked up over study techniques sounds crazy, fyi.
Lurk moar boys.

dtcamero Wrote:Reading this thread is like listening to my deaf grandparents argue with each other. moreover getting so worked up over study techniques sounds crazy, fyi.
Lurk moar boys.

Don't be silly. My opinion is the most important thing in the woooooooorld. It must be heard.