I think Stansfield is referring to how many people incorrectly use uncommon (usually not English) in completely incorrect ways. Or how people tend to take a fairly reasonable word and slap incompatible Latin or Greek roots onto them to make an unreasonable word all in the name of sounding smarter. Personally, I think people who use words like that sound dumb. Making up words is all well and good if you're trying to explain something with a limited vocabulary or a word for it doesn't exist (or more likely is so far removed from your language that you don't know it), but doing so in an effort to sound smart when a common, reasonable, and effective word already exists is just irritating.

Not to mention that smashing words together to make new words that are effectively worthless sounds really unprofessional.

All you can do in cases where someone uses such a word is to guess what they mean through which words or parts they happened to slap together.

[Zgarbas]

Yes but see, if OP is into Philology then big words are a given. In any language. So many Latin&Greek terms onto which everyone keeps projecting new meanings, pompous terms, etc... it's ridiculous.
Also phrasal verbs are pretty basic. And many "big words" aren't in fact pompous at all...

[RawToast]

Zgarbas Wrote:Yes but see, if OP is into Philosophy then big words are a given. In any language. So many Latin&Greek terms onto which everyone keeps projecting new meanings, pompous terms, etc... it's ridiculous.

If you truely wish to be silly with latin, go for: floccinaucinihilipilification

I still remember some of the nasty words I picked from from university papers: minutiae, defenestration, antediluvian, niggardly, phenomenology, etc. I wouldn't expect any non-native to bother learning such words (unless required in their field/interests) and I would not bother using them in conversation.

It is plausible that you may stumble across such vocaulary in books; for example, David Eddings uses defenestration a few times in one of his series. I am pretty sure he just wanted to show off a 'funny word' he had found/been introduced to!

mel685 Wrote:I have a high tolerance for "foreign gibberish" but I need to understand English better if I want to get good grades and to become fluent.

It boggles my mind that you don't consider yourself fluent.

I also wonder what real benefit there is in going hugely out of your way in order to improve it further. If skill in English is so common-place in Europe that you need to be insanely good to impress anyone, then maybe you should stop trying to impress people with your English and instead find some other skill set or knowledge base to differentiate yourself from the competition. It would seem to me that your English is good enough to use professionally, good enough for translation (it's no crime to occasionally use a dictionary), good enough to enjoy media and judging by your writing ability, good enough for communication. Anyway your English vocabulary will continue to increase as long as you keep using it as you are now.

Quote:I still remember some of the nasty words I picked from from university papers: minutiae, defenestration, antediluvian, niggardly, phenomenology, etc. I wouldn't expect any non-native to bother learning such words (unless required in their field/interests) and I would not bother using them in conversation.

I know these words, except for niggardly and phenomenology. I'll probably look them up just for fun.
I listened to a lot of SAT vocabulary tapes/ mp3s though, so I learned a lot of "useless" words. The sad part is that learning them is a complete waste of time unless you know most common words. Since I don't think I know enough common words yet, I'll resume my SAT studies in a few months.

Quote:Yes but see, if OP is into Philology then big words are a given.

Yup. I'm currently studying a corpus of phonetic words and most of these words are rarely used in conversation. I don't mind because I love linguistics and take pride in knowing rare words even if I can never use them. Sometimes, I read dictionaries for fun.

@nadiatims
You come across as a bit pessimistic which surprises me since you seem to have devised a good method for vocabulary learning.
Acing exams and most importantly, finally being able to read pretty much any book without having to use the dictionary thousands of times--and the dictionary doesn't always help me understand "problem" sentences either...--are my main goals.

What's happening to my immersion environment is proof that I need to improve if I want to keep using English on a daily basis. I spent years without watching TV in my native language and now I spend more and more time watching TV in French. That's bad for many reasons. Sure, I haven't bought DVDs in a couple of years so maybe that's the problem, but I doubt it.
I'm frustrated because there are lots of words I still don't understand.

Frankly, learning English is the best use of my time. Now, I just want advice on how to best go about studying vocabulary.

As others have said, you mightn't think highly of your fluency, but you communicate clearly and that's the real test. You may be aware of gaps between what is in your head and what you are getting onto the page, but that happens to a lot of us, and as everyone keeps saying, sheer exposure is the key to getting further up the learning curve at this stage, and reading tends to be the most efficient way of doing this.

I wonder if your discontent with your grip on "simple words" is actually a sign of growing sophistication? That is, those little words are looking more complicated because of increasing fluency and an improving awareness of nuance, and you're becoming aware of shades of meaning and alternative usages? Sometimes the "simplest" and most commonly used words are the hardest to "define", because they are so heavily used in everyday speech and writing and are hard to pin down without reference to the word itself, or they shift their meaning depending on context (hence those long entries in dictionaries for words that are among the first we ever learn, whether native or not: the three-letter word "set" has more usages tabled in the Oxford English Dictionary than any other). Obscure and technical terms are "easier", in a way, as these tend to have a single agreed and limited definition. (Which is why we get so many grumbles on these boards about words like "significant", because a lot of posters here are technically-minded and in technical fields and to them, this is working terminology to be used with precision, rather than another way of saying "meaningful", which is how non-statisticians tend to use it. You'll have equivalent experiences if you're studying philology, or indeed any other academic field.)

Completely agree with posters who are suggesting that you're probably at the stage where you will start to pick up the rest by sheer exposure and context. I haven't seen a word in this thread I don't know, and I haven't touched a word list in English since about second grade (and you can take all this with a "grain of salt", because my own pronunciation is often eccentric/wrong, though, because I have terrible hearing and don't tend to *hear* vocab, and it gets read rather than acquired in conversation/spoken context. Which would suggest that some adult readers DO need to use a dictionary more even if we think we know what we're talking about <g>.)

Edited multiple times because English is still slippery for this middle-aged native <g>.

[Zgarbas]

RawToast Wrote:

Zgarbas Wrote:Yes but see, if OP is into Philosophy then big words are a given. In any language. So many Latin&Greek terms onto which everyone keeps projecting new meanings, pompous terms, etc... it's ridiculous.

If you truely wish to be silly with latin, go for: floccinaucinihilipilification

I still remember some of the nasty words I picked from from university papers: minutiae, defenestration, antediluvian, niggardly, phenomenology, etc. I wouldn't expect any non-native to bother learning such words (unless required in their field/interests) and I would not bother using them in conversation.

It is plausible that you may stumble across such vocaulary in books; for example, David Eddings uses defenestration a few times in one of his series. I am pretty sure he just wanted to show off a 'funny word' he had found/been introduced to!

This one time, I managed to use it in a sentence for an essay (for which flocchinaucinihilipilification oh god why do I still remember the spelling for that aside, I got a low grade because the teacher was sure I'd used a dictionary when writing it ). It was the greatest achievement of my life, since it doesn't make much sense as a word.

Zgarbas, I think that's one to put on your CV <g>.

Having fun with big words is just a gourmet approach to language, like poetry. If you're here, it's because you enjoy language, and I bet a lot of us remember trying out "sophisticated" words we didn't quite understand as a kid or a teenager (or, if you were the more exacting sort of adolescent, hearing someone else do it) :-)

I forget who said it, but "for fifty years after Dickens no English writer dared call a nose anything other than a proboscis". What works for one writer as personal style can be cumbersome and pretentious in other hands, and language that is fine and dandy for irony or amusing your academic peers (for example) would be misplaced and possibly even dangerous if used on a warning sign or a health information leaflet for a general audience. Native speakers tend to play harder with their words than those who've come late to a language, and may not realize how taxing and confusing this can be for those learning said language in adulthood (hence Zgarbas' comment about unrealistic expectations back up there in this thread).

Quote:I wonder if your discontent with your grip on "simple words" is actually a sign of growing sophistication? That is, those little words are looking more complicated because of increasing fluency and an improving awareness of nuance, and you're becoming aware of shades of meaning and alternative usages?

This is partly true, but I'm mostly worried about basic words I don't know at all.
I'm trying to take care of that right now. I borrowed some translations books and I'll be studying them over the weekend.
I worked extra hard on my research paper today so that I can have some more time to myself tomorrow. I still have this insanely long list of vocabulary to learn, but since this list is full of examples sentences, all I need to do is make MCD-style flashcards.

I don't know how to find decent translations for these "light" and "sounds" words. I have a couple of expensive paper dictionaries that I bought for college so I'm hoping they'll be useful.
I love online dictionaries and CD-Roms but there just aren't any good bilingual dictionaries online.

My best bet would be to read a lot, but I don't have the time right now. Then again, I'd rather learn these tricky words *before* using my 2 Kindles. Consolidating knowledge is easier than trying to memorize something new.

I did my reps today and everything went well, except for the fact that I still haven't translated the words I'm studying (which is a big problem since I'm taking translation exams...).
I know I can't reproduce Anki on paper but I now have three bags: an easy one which I decided not to touch anymore for now, a medium difficulty one, and a hard one. I've been studying the medium and hard words.

mel685 Wrote:You come across as a bit pessimistic which surprises me since you seem to have devised a good method for vocabulary learning.
Acing exams and most importantly, finally being able to read pretty much any book without having to use the dictionary thousands of times--and the dictionary doesn't always help me understand "problem" sentences either...--are my main goals.

Actually I'm being totally non pessimistic. I'm saying all indications seem to be that your English is good enough (very good even). If I could speak a second language as well as your error-free posts here suggest you are able to, I'd consider that language a done project and move onto something else. Anyway it seems unlikely your English ability would regress heavily unless you stopped using it entirely. And if you do stop using it, then that in itself begs the question, why keep studying it?

wrt to acing your exams...i think there is a diminishing return in doing so in most cases. Potential employers will likely care more about your demonstrable English ability and any other skills you might bring to the table than just your university marks. Certainly passing your subjects is important, and in order to get something out of your education it's probably better not to slack off too much, but the value of good marks is heavily inflated within the school/university context.

I understand where you're coming from but my ultimate (dream) goal is to become a college professor. I'd be okay with teaching junior high or high school kids (I've done it briefly before during an internship) but I'd much rather end up in a university.

My English needs to be really, really good if I want to do this. Moreover, becoming bilingual is a dream of mine. I'm pretty sure I'll never learn a third language, so I might as well improve my English as much as possible.

I studied German, Italian, Spanish and Chinese in the past, but these languages don't interest me anymore. After a year of study, I hated Chinese with a passion and couldn't say anything in the language. Most of the other students found Chinese pretty easy and passed the exam with flying colors--not me. I got an F and dropped the course.

Anyway, I worked a lot today and I feel great. Raking in 7 hours of listening before 7 P.M. is a big achievement (for me anyway, since I tend to wake up very late on weekends).

I also made 60 flashcards that I'll review later.

You know about anki and you can't pass a vocab test? Just make the cards the same way the teacher does his tests, piece of cake.

I'm trying to become a translation teacher so I *need* to know English extremely well. It's not like I'll be teaching something else in English.
I don't use Anki but I use paper flashcards. Paper flashcards are really handy to memorize words, but I usually end up not reviewing the words after a while, and then I forget them. It's not a big deal when the words are pretty useless, but it's more problematic when I'm trying to rote learn words that are useful but incredibly boring to learn like "sparrow" or "starling".

Just curious, how in the world do you make an effective card to study "sparrow" or "starling"? The only way I can see doing it is just saying that they're both birds or giving the translation. Either way, it doesn't really tell you much unless you're a bird watcher or something, since most people simply know that a sparrow is a bird and probably can't even tell you what it looks like.

So yeah, just curious how you go about studying words that usually remain ambiguous.

I have a couple of picture dictionaries and I read a book about birds some time ago.
I learn the words with their translations and now I'm learning them with their collocations--apparently, a sparrow can "twitter" and "chirp".
I'll probably print a tiny picture of some of the birds I'm learning if I still can't memorize their names. I used to know the name of all of the common (and less common) birds but I forgot most of them. Since I lost the deck I had made for the occasion and don't want to learn isolated words again, I'll make a new one someday.

If you want to be a translation teacher, maybe you're better off practicing translation. You could start translating wiki articles and stuff into your native language. You don't need to know every single word (especially not obscure nouns) in order to translate, as you can use dictionaries. What you need is a really good intuitive understanding of grammar, which will allow you to read relatively quickly and accurately. You'll also need to be good at writing whatever language you're translating into. Your English writing seems native so I can't imagine how this would be a problem for you.

I've done plenty of translation and when there are words I don't know, or that I only know in Japanese (such as fish names like 鯵、鯛 etc) I just use a dictionary. It's no big deal. The most time consuming part of translating for me is in writing nicely in the target language.

Sorry for eavesdropping, just wanted to share an awesome resource for vocabulary (AND KNOWLEDGE) in any domain you choose : say Maths, Biology, Philosophy, History, Physics...etc
ALL courses by TTC (The Teaching Company). These courses are awesome ! Each comes with an outline detailing every lecture (a lecture is approximately 30 minutes) and are thorough, informative and vocabulary-enriching ! They can be expensive... (though, I believe many are on sale now)...... OR, if you're just a liiiittle bit of the shameless downloader I am, you can get TONS of them off The Pirate Bay (via torrent)

Do browse their website : thegreatcourses.com (you won't be disappointed, and won't feel like wasting time listening to a lecture or two a day. As long as you choose a subject/material which interest you)

Thank you very much for the answers! I have downloaded TTC material in the past but I've never actually listened to it. Thanks for reminding me that TTC exists and that maybe I should give them a chance.

I've started copying down bilingual sentences and inputting them in my paper "SRS" (I'll probably use a 5-box portable spaced repetition system).

I might be late but based on your writing ability I think I know the problem: you have an obvious learning gap. The gap I am referring to is the one that often occurs when a parent is trying to figure out what the heck the kids are saying these days. In other words, your English is sophisticated, but not juvenile. What you are not understanding is, in fact, juvenile language.

As an adult you likely learned how to understand mature and sophisticated English. This is only natural, as no mature individual would spend much time on childish endeavors. In order to fill that gap, however, you need to go backwards. I highly recommend comics and juvenile television. Most of the words you alluded to having difficulties with stem from those sources.

To be frankly honest, it is rather unnecessary for you to go out of your way to learn these kinds of words. It will have no effect on your education whatsoever, and I assure you your communication skills are more than adequate for your success in higher education. I'm only mentioning this because the gap really seems to bother you.

If you find it helpful, the age range you should shoot for is 7-13. Sounds crazy but the gap I'm seeing is what we usually experience as kids watching cartoons and reading batman

I'm not a native speaker, but I did get that impression reading his replies. I was thinking " why does this guy want to improve his English ?! He's SO GOOD already !"

But now that you mentioned "sophisticated English" and "juvenile English", I get it.

mel685, if you want to start reading comics, and don't mind reading them on a screen, email me. I've got links to complete Marvel collections.

I strongly suggest you watch Anime ! And read Manga ! I do that in every language I know and it's super useful for colloquiol, easy, native-exclusive sentences that add this *fluency* to one's speaking abilities

I'd honestly have mistaken you for a fellow native speaker (and I have a degree in English Lit, so hopefully my grasp of my native language is decent at least). So, I understand the frustration but I don't think you need worry too much. Reading is probably the best way, though games might help too, especially text-heavy ones, I've learned quite a few words from them - I think really my own vocabulary does come largely from reading, since there are plenty of native speakers who don't read so much and also struggle with unfamiliar words (certainly many people have trouble with Dickens).
Maybe you need (well-read) native speakers to talk with and ask about words you're uncertain of? A dictionary can tell you the definition, but they might be better placed to tell you how common the word is, and maybe pinpoint if anything particular is consistently causing problems (in some cases, they may not even know the word either). When translating, it's of course usual to go from the source text to your native language, so using a dictionary can still work.

Anki can make things easier, maybe try including a lot of picture cards, for words that's possible for.

English can be a pain, I know - English learners don't seem to get given nearly enough credit.

Sorry for the late reply. I really appreciate your trying to help me!
If you have links to shows/ comics I can download or suggestions, please send me a PM.
I haven't started reading comics yet. I really want to, but I need to find comics first. I've started watching some kids shows again-Sabrina The Teenage Witch is an old favorite of mine, but they speak pretty fast.

I re-watched the first 14 episodes of "Glee". I know this isn't a kids show per se (actually, it's not appropriate for kids) but the vocabulary most of the characters use is pretty basic.

I'm also learning words again--I've learned over 300 since my last post! I'll try to find some time to print out pictures of the words I'm struggling with.
Right now, I'm hoping that leafing through picture dictionaries will be enough. That's why I borrowed some from the library.

Again, if you have any advice or suggestion(s), please post them here. Right now, I have a lot of free time, but that won't be the case in a few weeks. I still have to go to college so obviously I can't do everything I want to, but it's not so bad.

I'm not running an immersion environment right now because I need to give my brain a break between vocabulary reviews, but I think that 3 to 5 hours of listening a day is plenty.
A few years ago, I listened to English for 10 to 14 hours every day... and I can't say I learned that much from the experience.

Sure, I stopped way before the magical "10,000 hours"... but I don't think that matters.

Listening to English for at least 2 hours every day is really important for me though. If I miss a day, I feel it. There's no such thing as "catching up" on listening hours when you're rusty from taking a one-week break.

I answered your email

American series ! I used to spend hours everyday watching them ! And you have the widest range of genres !
Some titles I loved : F.R.I.E.N.D.S :') , Ghost Wisperer, Supernatural, Desperate Housewives, 90210, Grey's Anatomy, House.... (off the top of my head)
More titles I haven't watched but hear a lot about : Fringe, The Big Bang Theory (my friend brags of having watched it with no English subtitles ! ), CSI, Castle, Gossip Girl, Pretty Little Liars....etc

Oh right ! Almost forgot ! Watch documentaries ! If you can subscribe(is this the word?) to National Geographic, do it ! It's worth every penny ! Of course you can torrent many of their (or other's) documentaries (I feel guilty mentioning downloading on this forum.. I feel I'd get some evil looks if I could see some of them O.O). I'll send you more links