Working through RTK1 I always seem to have a bit of trouble with the *flower+water* characters. I think that they're better remembered if given their own primitive group. Here's four symbols that use the primitive;

落 fall; 299
薄 dilute; 227
藩 clan; 1912
藻 seaweed; 2035

I can't recall anymore from memory but note that in all four the *flower* primitive is atop the *water* primitive, so it would Not include symbols like; 漢 where *water* is larger than *flower* and *flower* is a part of another primitive.

any ideas on a primitive keyword?

[Katsuo]

stehr Wrote:any ideas on a primitive keyword?

"Watering can" (because you use it to water flowers)

It would be a great idea to make a primitive for that. But beware that there are a handful of the opposite also such as 満 漢. I currently just use story situations and visuals to keep things straight, such as for 満, "Add water THEN the flowers. With both the vase will be full," or for 簿, "I had to register for the *acupunture* course in a leaky *bamboo* shack with *water* dripping all over the register blurring the names inked there."

Looking back, I think it would be a good idea for a primitive.
What I did that was fairly effective, is have two different cues for the flower primitive. When flower was over everything (eg 薄) I thought of one of those aloha shirts (or print) that tourists wear in Hawaii (for 薄, the accupuntiarist was wearing an aloha shirt). When the flower primitive was not over everything (eg 満), I thought of it as flower. This cleared up a lot of the confusion for me. I think Heisig did something similar with some primitives (like fire).

I use "lemonade" for this primitive.

Maybe this is what Heisig wants you to do in frame 2035.

Yes, similar to how you could use Bird Nest for the primitive in Seaweed and Parched.

I think Watering Can makes for a good visual primitive which in turn help you distinguish it from the variant used in Full and Sino-.

*grumble* need to get that IME installed on this work computer.

Actually Seaweed may be a good keyword for flower + water.

vosmiura Wrote:Actually Seaweed may be a good keyword for flower + water.

Definitely -- it makes sense as far as its' containing primitives are concerned, and goes well with the kanji that it appears in.

I didn't go for that keyword because there already is a separate Kanji for seaweed (藻　-- it's one of the later ones). While Heisig doesn't seem to mind using the same keyword to describe both a primitive and a full Kanji, it has caused me problems in the past (drum caused me a minor headache for a little while) and I decided to avoid that as much as possible.

Cheers,
Misha

Thanks for the primitives! I think both *seaweed* and *watering can* are great choices. Mainly because *watering can* fits in well with many stories on the board and *seaweed* is the most visually stimulating keyword of the actual group, allowing you to kill two birds with one stone when learning it.

Nukemarine Wrote:a good visual primitive which in turn help you distinguish it from the variant used in Full and Sino-.

Yes! I've always had a ton of trouble with *full* 満, thinking it belonged to the *flower/water* group.

Anyways, I think I'll post up a note of this occurrence on the study page.

I like this idea too; I've gone for 'seaweed' as the primitive here (since the flower radical is in the stronger position here it makes sense to me to choose a kind of flower rather than a kind of water as the primitive image). I've published my stories for 'dilute' and 'fall', not because I think they're particularly good but because it gives other people something they can riff off of for their own seaweed-based images.

[I suppose you could use 'seaweed' for the flower-strongest kanji (落 薄 藩 藻) and 'watering can' for the water-strongest ones (満 漢). Have to think about that idea.]

pm215 Wrote:I like this idea too; I've gone for 'seaweed' as the primitive here (since the flower radical is in the stronger position here it makes sense to me to choose a kind of flower rather than a kind of water as the primitive image).

Hmm, seaweeds are actually underwater. Maybe something like a waterlilly would work better, since it's a flower that's always above water?

pazustep Wrote:

pm215 Wrote:I like this idea too; I've gone for 'seaweed' as the primitive here (since the flower radical is in the stronger position here it makes sense to me to choose a kind of flower rather than a kind of water as the primitive image).

Hmm, seaweeds are actually underwater. Maybe something like a waterlilly would work better, since it's a flower that's always above water?

Water lily is used for "half" as a primitive. Besides, seaweed goes to the shore, is made into food, covers holes on the beach, etc. Perhaps think of a Seaweed muck monster like swamp thing.

stehr Wrote:落 fall; 299
薄 dilute; 227
藩 clan; 1912
藻 seaweed; 2035

how about clown? he shoots water from the flower in his lapel.