After reading the recent topics here on gathering vocab quickly and getting through RTK in 15 days and such, I've been pondering to myself on doing the same.

Here is my problem. I'm on Frame 380 in RTK after a second attempt and no amount of studying the stories, no matter how many times, is making some of them stick. That's not to say that the method hasn't worked for a good number of them, but over the course of the week I can't seem to remember some of the kanji or get them mixed up with others, and these are the ones that I've spent about 2 mins or more going over the stories, and breaking the kanji done in each part by radicals.

Granted, this could just be because I've just reached them(again for the 2nd time actually, but still) but here is where it gets really interesting. I could be reviewing vocab in Anki and come across a word like 強調/きょうちょう, and while it took me a few days to get the pronouciation right when it came up, I could break the kanji down into "strong" and "investigation(not really the keyword I'm certain it's discuss but I know it's used in words like 調査, so I know the 調 has to do with investigating something carefully or going over something with care when in usage).

What I've been doing for every kanji I can't come up with or get wrong is hit Again, so I see them again 10mins later and first thing the next day to be reviewed from the very beginning. I actually got this advice from a blog, that I can't find the link to right now and it seems to have helped put some kanji into short term memory but not sure with the long term. I can see the logic in how it gets the most needed terms to review in your face so to speak.

I firmly believe that RTK has helped me get stroke order down thus far though, even with kanji that I come across in the wild, it just makes so much more sense now.. After going through 360 something using the book this time, that much is certain.

The method I want to go through now is doing 5 kanji every 20 mins whenever possible. Over a course of 5 hours on my day off, I could learn 75 a day. Doing about 2 hours on work days that's 30. I could finish in about 2 months I suppose. And by finish, I mean getting the kanji/meanings/writing out of the way, I'd still be reviewing obviously for God knows how long.

I have used my lunch break at work to cram 25-30 kanji a day but I don't think this is ideal seeing my recent results. The thing is though I don't seem to be retaining them too well based on the stories and modifying ones slightly, I seem to remember them more when I write them out over the course of a few days. Is this a problem? I know that it's easier to retain info when it's in chunks, and that the keywords and stories are meaningless in the long run, but is it worth it to spend more time making stories to recall the kanji over blitzing through the book to study vocab faster and get on with letting immersion do the trick? I'm asking this to those people that finished RTK at any speed and got to a decent point in their Japanese.

Also, I've been doing vocab reviews at the same time as RTK and listening to new reports and stuff on my mp3 player. I hear highly of just doing RTK and nothing else except for listening, but surely there is someone who has juggled both to some success?

Sorry if this post is long winded and diluted, but I'm trying to do this as efficiently as possible. I'm tired of puttering out when there is no need whatsoever for me to be doing so when everyone else has found a better way to balance things out for themselves.

tldr Version: I'm going to blitz through RTK focusing more on primitives and stroke order than grinding over stories(while giving them a chance still) and want to know if I can do that and Core at the same time to some extent.

I'm almost certain there is a core deck floating around somewhere with the words' kanjis in RtK order that you can study while doing RtK.

I'd suggest focusing on stories. I experienced that setting an extra minute off for each story payed off in the long run at least. As for the ones you say that you keep forgetting, try to look at their keywords (and the patterns in those keywords). I also had some that just never seemed to stick, but it was usually a result of the keyword not working very well with me (usually because I couldn't relate to it, this was particularly true for keywords I didn't know, being a non-native English speaker). Though I usually experienced that I would have a very easy time remembering those kanji by the time I learned them in a Japanese word, and could add that word in kanas to the card (i.e. Japanese keyword), as I would have reviewed them way more than what was necessary just because the English keyword troubled me. If your problem stems from this as well, you don't need to worry too much and could even let the cards pass with "hard" when you fail them if you are certain it was because of the keyword. I did this towards the end when I became aware this was why some kanjis never stuck, and it never seemed to harm me.

Oh, there are definitely kanji I can't remember because the keywords are too abstract for me, and English is my L1 to boot.

I will still do the stories as I go along, but I really don't want to go back and review the stories over and over just to forget those problem kanji anyway after spending a good 3-5 mins on each one the first time, over just focusing on the stroke order of the kanji as I go along and letting the details of the stories fade way. And these are stories I'm sure I've gotten down pat after breaking the kanji down, associating an image to each element to fit in the story, and piecing it all together. There are kanji I do not get right until that kanji appears as a primitive in another kanji, and then lo and behold, it just clicks.

If a story doesn't stick, ERASE it immediately. Even if you can't come up with a new story, that's ok.
Better to leave the story blank than have a useless story. When the time comes, either a new story will pop up in your head or you'll see someone else's story that you really like.

Another piece of advice. When you see a keyword, write down the first thing that comed to your head. Your RTK should be based on whatever you wrote down. The next time you see the keyword you'll likely have that same idea pop in your mind, but this time you'll have an RTK story for it.

Btw, are you using kanji.koohii.com to review? There are tons of stories shared by people and you can copy/paste/save them.

Using Anki at the moment. I used the site the last time I did RTK and haven't done it since, mainly because I have the actual book in front of me now and it seemed cluttered for some reason. I'll need to try it again.

Coming up with different types of tasks or mediums for studying kanji could make it easier. 一 之 my favorite 習ing 法s is replacing RTK 鍵語s with kanji 中 English texts. If you 読 a 全 本 like that, you 貰 to 閲 kanji 十s 之 千s 之 時s. Another one is listening to audio for RTK keywords (like here) while reading kanji, or saying RTK keywords out loud.

Isbilenper Wrote:I'm almost certain there is a core deck floating around somewhere with the words' kanjis in RtK order that you can study while doing RtK.

kore.txt has a column for sorting sentences by the highest RTK frame number of kanji in them.

I don't think that method will work for me. Took me awhile to decode those sentences before I figured out how it worked. Then again, who knows?

I all the way up to Frame 420 right now. I think I'll go through the site later today and update all the stories up to that point to solidfy them. If I do it this way, no way in hell can I keep up Anki reviews daily, and attend to my other hobbies. This would only work on days I'm gaming/working around the house. I do illustration so can't do this on those days at all and work/time with the kids is a factor as well.

I find that reviews go much quicker when I do them on my mobile phone.
It allows me to review a few minutes here and there. Over the course of a day it adds up.
If I have to review on my laptop or desktop, I'd probably never get as far.

With my phone I can review during dead times throughout the day. For example, waiting in line, sitting in the car/bus/train, the bathroom, lunch break, and waiting at the bus/train stop.

Don't listen to me or the countless stories of burnout from people before you. If you're having trouble grasping the 500 kanji or so right now I'd say slow down. You don't need to finish this right now or tomorrow it's about the long run. Make sure you're enjoying the process and don't use up too much will power to force reviews you will grow to hate it if you feel you need to push. My reviews through all my decks are 200-225 a day, everyday. Some days I can add about 60 cards sometimes I add none. But I know I can do 225 cards in about an hour-1.5 hours and that is all I want to dedicate to reviews. I've been through rtk twice and have 700 left in core6000. If I rushed core or rtk like I did rtk the first time I would not still be progressing.



TL;DR dude don't rush it take your time and do other things in Japanese besides reviews.

chamcham Wrote:If a story doesn't stick, ERASE it immediately.

The stories are the foundation of RTK. Don't try to rush yourself. First find the perfect story.

The story rankings are deceptive. Don't depend only on the top 3. Scroll on down and there are many excellent overlooked ones to choose from. If you can't find the perfect story, try to make one up yourself.

The process I use is the following:

1. Read from the RTK book and attempt to imagine my own story.

2. Look at the stories on this website to see if someone made a similar story to the one I imagined. If so, I save it and edit it a bit for myself. (Sometimes, well more often than not, you might even find an even better story. Use it, if you think it will be easier to remember.)

3. If none of the stories are similar to the one I imagined, or not as creative, I'll try to write my own and I always add it to the website.

NoSleepTilFluent Wrote:Don't listen to me or the countless stories of burnout from people before you. If you're having trouble grasping the 500 kanji or so right now I'd say slow down. You don't need to finish this right now or tomorrow it's about the long run. Make sure you're enjoying the process and don't use up too much will power to force reviews you will grow to hate it if you feel you need to push. My reviews through all my decks are 200-225 a day, everyday. Some days I can add about 60 cards sometimes I add none. But I know I can do 225 cards in about an hour-1.5 hours and that is all I want to dedicate to reviews. I've been through rtk twice and have 700 left in core6000. If I rushed core or rtk like I did rtk the first time I would not still be progressing.



TL;DR dude don't rush it take your time and do other things in Japanese besides reviews.

I'm not missing THAT much kanji, but it's enough to make me question my current method before I get too deep in like last time. Cept this time I know when the red light is flashing, lol.

My average reviews in Anki everyday used to be 270-350+ in 20 mins of so about a month ago. Since a few weeks ago I started writing at least the target word/kanji I've slowed down to 300 max in an hour. If I know the word or remember it within 4 secs, it passes, below that, I hit 1. I rarely hit hard these days. What method do you use btw?

I listen to music and news about 30 mins to 1 hour each day. Currently playing Pokemon LG in Japanese but that doesn't really count. I tend to get things done when I buckle down and nail them, when I take too long on one project it just stagnates and doesn't get done, it gets put off. And I hate that because I don't like NOT getting anything done. That's just how my brain works(for better or worse).

I have no problems reviewing at this point, I've found a happy medium....... it's getting the information IN there that is annoying me. I'm still going to be listening to Japanese music and watching TV for a long time, but getting something done motivates me more than anything. I'm that dude that will either catch one of every Pokemon and get every Trainer card Star on his file or let the game sit on the shelf until I got time to do it. I will collect every item in Dragon Quest 4 and fill up the monster book or not do it at all. I'll make the time to do a painting or not do it at all. It's not that I'm not enjoying it, it's that I want to min/max this basic stuff so I can get to keeping what I need in there.

My current plan is to finish RTK and cover the first 800 items in Core before doing grammar in depth next, which will probably be done from my textbook Introduction to Modern Japanese and looking over Japanese the Manga Way again. My grammar at this point is enough to get most of what I'm seeing in Core and out of the books I read, but my listening needs work overall so I've been actively trying to up that lately. My joy when I recognized words like "kurikaesu" in a news broadcast on my mp3 player after just getting the card in Anki that day.

PkmnTrainerAbram Wrote:My average reviews in Anki everyday used to be 270-350+ in 20 mins of so about a month ago.

One more word of advice, you might want to write out the kanji on paper when you are 'reviewing' them. I don't think you're doing that, considering the short amount of time it takes you to review that large stack of cards. I personally don't think that writing out all of the kanji is necessary to do daily, but it should be done periodically.

There's a lot of helpful software listed in these forums.

The following come to mind:
Subs2srs (http://subs2srs.sourceforge.net/)
yomichan (http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=7074)
cb's Japanese Text Analysis Tool (http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=9459)
JGlossator (http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=10386)

RevTK Software Developer Showcase (http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=7457)

Norman Wrote:

PkmnTrainerAbram Wrote:My average reviews in Anki everyday used to be 270-350+ in 20 mins of so about a month ago.

One more word of advice, you might want to write out the kanji on paper when you are 'reviewing' them. I don't think you're doing that, considering the short amount of time it takes you to review that large stack of cards. I personally don't think that writing out all of the kanji is necessary to do daily, but it should be done periodically.

I did start doing that, which is why I said my reviews now take an hour to do those same 300. Palm tracing never really worked for me so I stopped doing that.

I've been reading more testimonies on other forums and blogs.

I am heavily considering giving up on my Core vocab decks for the moment in favor of spending most of my study time with RTK and listening to news/music/TV. There is that fun deck with Pokemon names I still could be doing, lol. I am currently going through my flashcards on the site, deleted cards 460-1500 and going back to rewrite stories on every flash card to get things right. I see there is an option to add a 2nd Keyword to every card. Is it beneficial to add that as an actual vocab word in Japanese that uses that Kanji? That way I won't be totally neglecting vocab work or is this too convoluted to be practical?

OR

I suppose I could spend most of my time with RTK, and spend certain days SRSing Core while not doing RTK specifically on those days.

I suppose it's really going to come down to what works best for me through trial and error, but again, opinons from experience would be nice.

My advice would be to focus on RTK exclusively for a few weeks with the aim of finishing the book.

Here's one approach:

- Aim for 100 kanji per day, split into 2-4 groups. Study at least half of the them in the morning if possible.
- Borrow or make a story for each kanji, then write the kanji a couple times as you think of the story (a small, lap-sized dry erase board works well for this).
- When you are finished, add 100 kanji to your koohii deck.
- The next day, test all new cards (my order was: reviewed failed cards from previous day>tested new cards>reviewed due cards.) Figure out what order works out best for you.
- Then, begin studying the next 100.
- Repeat, taking no days off.

For a little motivation, consider printing lists of the kanji you've studied each day and hanging them somewhere, or printing a list of all 2042 and highlighting the day's 100 as you go (Check out the kanji poster advertised on this site.)

EDIT: Also, see this: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=7414

Oniichan Wrote:For a little motivation, consider printing lists of the kanji you've studied each day and hanging them somewhere

Another vouch for something like this. While was doing RTK reviews, they were written out by hand onto a 486 square grid, printed on A4 leaves of paper. After the final kanji was reviewed in Anki -and some of the subsequent review days- all of the sheets were stuck together to form a large paper sheet roughly 1.2mX1.8m. It now hangs on a constructed line, replacing the curtain over the window in the study room.

Something to look back on and have something physical to point to and tell yourself/others "this is where my Japanese began". Little reminders help.

In terms of advice, all I can do is repeat what seems to have worked for the vast majority of people who have done RtK and are now successfully using it to learn Japanese (including myself):

1. Do Rtk in a minimum of six weeks, if you're dedicating all your mental energy to it. Take 10 to 12 weeks, if you're also doing another mentally straining activity (school, work that requires mental effort, or even just a full time job at the local supermarket - either that, or try to get them to reduce your hours for six weeks). Can't speak to the efficacy of taking longer than 3 months - certainly can't guarantee you that it's a good idea. You should probably try to set up a plan to finish in three months max.

2. Understand and follow the instructions in the book, including learning how to make up a proper story. Never use the stories in the book ( I have, and even months later, I'm still having trouble with a lot of the kanji I used them for). Instead, pick and choose your stories from this site, make up your own when you can't find something you like.

3. Do RtK first, study Japanese vocab, grammar, sentences, kana, etc. after you're done with RtK. Only think allowed, while Rtk-ing, is media, and only if it's fun.

4. Set goals (artificial deadlines), and use timeboxing. Don't go by AJATT's timeboxing suggestions, find out what works for you (my favorite right now is a rough estimation of the Pomodoro Technique. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomodoro_Technique Sometimes I go with three decremental timeboxes - as in 30 min, 25 min, 20 min. ; other times with three 25 or two 30 minute ones. It depends on the circumstances. Four 25 minute ones are a bit much for me, even though, mathematically, they add up better than my method (they add up to the two hour block of maximum time one should spend on something mentally straining, at a time).

5. Don't stop reviewing when you're done.

The prospect of abandoning my Anki vocab decks for two months kind of irks me, though in two months my listening practice and kanji recall should be amazing compared to now.

I could still review my RTK in Anki along with this site and it won't effect me negatively right? How about going with an audio course like Pimslur/Phrasebooks as part of my mp3 immersion?

I think chamcham's advice about associating the RTK keyword with the first thing that pops into your mind is crucial to success in remembering the stories. I read a few books by Tony Buzan that describe memory techniques you might find useful. The more personal and relevant to your connotations with the keyword, the easier your story will be to recall.

The user-contributed stories on this site really helped me through slow points, as the other users suggested excellent replacements for Heisig's initial suggestions. "Toilet paper" instead of "spool", for example.

Any Japanese study in kana-only should be fine, but most people don't study vocab in kana only. The idea is not create conflicts in your mind between actual use and the mnemonics of RTK. Keeping similar keywords differentiated is difficult enough without having vocabulary flashcards contradicting your RTK efforts.

Likewise, Pimsleur or any other audio-only study should also be fine.

As for reviewing RTK, do it -either- on this site -or- in an RTK Anki deck, not both. Doing it in both would double your reviews and totally throw off the SRS scheduling by... well... a factor of 2. There is an RTK anki deck that links to this site's stories on each card, which is an ideal hybrid for Anki users - then you can track your stories here while still counting your reviews in Anki.

[s0apgun]

In a rush so didn't read your post yet but how about skipping RTK and going straight into vocab instead. I feel RTK only added so much to my Japanese ability.

s0apgun Wrote:In a rush so didn't read your post yet but how about skipping RTK and going straight into vocab instead. I feel RTK only added so much to my Japanese ability.

I got to frame 1500 something on my last attempt. There are kanji I still haven't forgotten though not using them and neglecting them just was a big mistake. I'm now on Core 4 and at a point where the vocab just isn't sticking and recalling kanji is alot harder than the first 500 words in Core.

PkmnTrainerAbram Wrote:

s0apgun Wrote:In a rush so didn't read your post yet but how about skipping RTK and going straight into vocab instead. I feel RTK only added so much to my Japanese ability.

I got to frame 1500 something on my last attempt. There are kanji I still haven't forgotten though not using them and neglecting them just was a big mistake. I'm now on Core 4 and at a point where the vocab just isn't sticking and recalling kanji is alot harder than the first 500 words in Core.

That's quite interesting. I got to the end of RtK, but stopped reviewing it soon after. While I've certainly forgotten some rules about writing out the kanji I've had no problem with recognition Core so far (up to 3100 words). The context easily helps with any issues there might be with similar looking kanji, especially if the word is a compound of 2+ kanji that usually does the trick.

A couple of points, besides the ones made already:

1. There's an Anki 2 add-on that apparently allows you to import your cards from this site, without losing the review schedule. But that's all I know about it, haven't tried it myself. I never used this site for reviews either, so I have no idea how it works. Just check the list of add-ons.

2. You can minimize the damage to your sentence deck, by doing a few things like stop adding right away, reviewing ahead before you start the Kanji deck, and then of course catching up at the end. And, if you think it's necessary, just set a few days aside in the middle, you just review current Kanji and spend the rest of the day catching up with your sentence deck. I didn't realize you were in the middle of a sentence deck when I said "absolutely no other Kanji". I would never advise someone to just let a deck they've been working on for months pile up with thousands of reviews. Don't do that.

3. Unless you're going through the Kanji and find yourself waaay ahead of the pace that would allow you to finish in six weeks (in your case, more like a month, since you already know some of them), you shouldn't complicate your life with Pimsleur. The cost/benefit ratio is just too high, compared to anything else you could be doing, including immersion. Immersion is critical to learning a language. Pimsleur is not.