Quote:Though I understand the use of hyperbole to explain a point of view, I think it is inadequate in this particular point.

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Quote:Stopping every other sentence to go to a dictionary is time-consuming and not that productive.

Really?

I at least never claimed that you had to use only native materials from day 1. I went through both the Genki books, so claiming that would be a tad bit hypocritical.

[Zgarbas]

edit: Actually nevermind. I have trouble explaining myself. I apologize for that.

And yes, I know! It's why I keep saying that we're not on opposing sides =) (which we've both acknowledged since our first posts in the debate, I think).

Quote:It's an often unspoken and inconvenient truth. If your goal is to learn Japanese, then this forum, any internet forum really, is a waste of time and a distraction, for the most part. The Off-topic/General subforum is the worst (since it has little to do with learning languages.

I wouldn't call it a waste of time, but rather a distraction sometimes. This forum gives its users a LOT (just think about cb4960's tools - they are the holy grail for every Japanese learner having ambitions reaching fluency in less than a few decades!), not to think about countless posts explaining stuff (In particular I magamo's posts come to my mind -- of course, other experienced and native-like users have contributed a lot to this site, too).

Thus, leaving this forum would be stupid and ignorant, however, the countless rants are annoying me as well. All getting fired up.. peace out and learn.

It's hot here :X Cheers.

Being on a forum isn't necessarily a waste of time. We've got a place here to share our resources and knowledge, and we get to interact with other self-learners, many of whom are very smart and motivated people. Sure, there's a lot of cruft but that is true for most other places as well. However, if you find that you're spending too much time online for your liking, maybe the problem isn't with the actual forum. Just saying.

One thing that bothers me though, after years on this forum and at least one massive flame war, is that people still haven't learned not to needlessly bring up AJATT.

Tori-kun Wrote:@TheVinster: Challenge? I increased the bar today and see how it will work out. 10 words more per day. がんばれー

I'm fine with a challenge but I'm more worried about getting burned out. Even at roughly 400 reviews per day I get tired of the whole process. Maybe once I've acquired an internship and have solidified my plans for the next few months, then I'll consider getting more serious with my reviews. For now I try to read 5% of my Hunger Games book each day along with reviews and maybe a show or two. It's more than enough for me at this point. Also gives me some time for games and whatnot since right now I recently quit my part-time job and am only attending school.

nadiatims Wrote:As for core6k, I tried stuff like that when i first started and found it extremely boring and demotivating.

What did you start with then before you could understand normal Japanese stuff.

mezbup Wrote:http://supernewsoftware.com/tenthousandwords.php
•10000 / 1460 = 6.8 years to basic fluency.
•30000 / 1460 = 20.54 years to reach native proficiency

This actually sounds very good to me. I've heard of people who have gotten four year degrees in Japanese and did additional self-study without reaching basic fluency (being able to read and listen to non-course specific material).

If someone can reach basic fluency in Japanese in 7 years, and an educated adult vocabulary in 21 years, I'd consider that to be a superior result. It's in fact, probably better than the average Japanese achieves vocabulary-wise at age 7 and 21.

Of course, learning 10,000 words per year is even better. But I'm not planning on stopping studying Japanese anytime soon, and hope to be able to continue for the next half century or so. Although it would be cool, I sure don't need a vocabulary of 500,000 words.

Yeah, I too did not find the horror scenario posted on the blog bad at all.

It doesn't have to take that long, sure - but even if it does, I doubt anyone would find themselves regretting the journey there. The most important thing is that you make it to the end.

Mushi Wrote:I sure don't need a vocabulary of 500,000 words.

ahahahah. But think, of what you could do with that many words! You'd be like some logophilic monster set on world domination able to talk your way into and out of everything.

[Zgarbas]

Or just use so many words no one else understands that everything you say will sound like gobbledegock.

Well, I saw a series of comments from some madman at Japaneselevelup who decided to learn every word in Tagaini Jisho - 140 000 in total - so these people exist. :p

Reaching 10k-15k in two years should be realistic for most people here, I think.
Words are only one part of it; pronunciation and grammar is also important. 8-)

corry Wrote:

nadiatims Wrote:As for core6k, I tried stuff like that when i first started and found it extremely boring and demotivating.

What did you start with then before you could understand normal Japanese stuff.

Initially after doing RTK I figured the next step should be similarly organized I and searched around and found different word lists and tried various systems for learning things in a rather hap hazard manner. After doing RTK (and this is possibly one of its disadvantages) I somehow thought that learning the language would simply involve learning and mastering each component separately via some book or system that spoon feeds me what I need to learn. After abandoning that, I just ended up reading and listening to a lot of varied media. A lot of it was rather hit and miss. Iirc I think manga was really good, as were junior high school level books, but i also started trying to read stuff way out of my league which was painful to say the least, but i'm sure i got something out of it. I think my listening improved leaps and bounds after i started recording any japanese videos I watched (youtube/anime) and then looped them on my ipod. I found this type of listening practice much more useful than listening to non-watched content or music.

Wow. I guess I'm just a not that good... I'm doing the unsorted core and adding only 20 a day. But I still have about 380~ reviews per day. Where do you find your retention rate in Anki? Under the "answer buttons", maybe? It says my learning cards are 75%, my young cards are 85%, and mature cards 65%


Oh and my daily average correct is about 80% I guess.

Saiga Wrote:... and mature cards 65%

I think this is your problem. I believe it is far below what most of us have, and failing a mature cards makes tons of extra reviews because you have to go through the 1-day, 4-day, 10-day interval etc. again when it otherwise wouldn't have appeared for months. Having that happen to 35% of your mature cards puts a lot of extra strain on you. You might consider answering more conservatively to keep them in memory (i.e. you might be choosing "easy" too often.) I think you are supposed to aim for ~90% on mature cards.

That's my thoughts at least.

Isbilenper Wrote:

Saiga Wrote:... and mature cards 65%

I think this is your problem. I believe it is far below what most of us have ----- I think you are supposed to aim for ~90% on mature cards.

That's my thoughts at least.

Yes, my thoughts exactly. I'm not a genius but I've never dropped below 85% on mature cards, and I don't think that should happen to anyone unless they are doing something wrong.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:

Isbilenper Wrote:

Saiga Wrote:... and mature cards 65%

I think this is your problem. I believe it is far below what most of us have ----- I think you are supposed to aim for ~90% on mature cards.

That's my thoughts at least.

Yes, my thoughts exactly. I'm not a genius but I've never dropped below 85% on mature cards, and I don't think that should happen to anyone unless they are doing something wrong.

Hmm... I have only ever hit the space bar when I've gotten them right. Is the 2 key the hotkey for "hard"?

Saiga Wrote:Hmm... I have only ever hit the space bar when I've gotten them right. Is the 2 key the hotkey for "hard"?

Yes, 2 is the hotkey for "hard", which you may need to use more. By default the space bar should be "good", which is what you should probably be pressing most of the time though, so I'm not entirely sure what you're doing wrong then. Have you tampered with the interval multiplier or maybe (I don't even know if this is possible) changed the spacebar to be "easy"?

Isbilenper Wrote:

Saiga Wrote:Hmm... I have only ever hit the space bar when I've gotten them right. Is the 2 key the hotkey for "hard"?

Yes, 2 is the hotkey for "hard", which you may need to use more. By default the space bar should be "good", which is what you should probably be pressing most of the time though, so I'm not entirely sure what you're doing wrong then. Have you tampered with the interval multiplier or maybe (I don't even know if this is possible) changed the spacebar to be "easy"?

No everything is default. Graduating interval: 1 day, easy interval: 4 days, starting ease: 250%.
I'm really not sure what I am doing wrong here. Maybe I try to answer too quickly and fail more mature cards as a result?

Do you read any Japanese at all outside Anki? I notice that I forget words from the Genki textbooks that I haven't read anywhere else, that's why I'm asking.

Stian Wrote:Do you read any Japanese at all outside Anki? I notice that I forget words from the Genki textbooks that I haven't read anywhere else, that's why I'm asking.

Not usually, I have lately been trying to dig through Tae Kim before doing any native material.
I have made it so that leeches are only tagged, I have 115 leeches at this point. Perhaps I should suspend them.

Zgarbas Wrote:Or just use so many words no one else understands that everything you say will sound like gobbledegock.

Maybe so, but where is the humour in that? Actually, I'll rephrase that, with a serious hat on: indeed.

[Zgarbas]

I won't lie, I made that comment just because I love saying (writing?) gobbledegock.

Zgarbas Wrote:I won't lie, I made that comment just because I love saying (writing?) gobbledegock.

No need to lie; it's a pretty awesome word. At least you don't opt for constructing a series of segues for the primary purpose of injecting crude and often juvenile humour into otherwise serious conversations...

In my defense, the confusion on any of my peers faces after they realise we have been discussing something like genitalia, instead of the original political current affairs topic, is an awesome phenomenon to experience.

Err... I should probably get back to putting off whatever else it was which I've forgotten about. Awkward.

Saiga Wrote:

Betelgeuzah Wrote:

Isbilenper Wrote:I think this is your problem. I believe it is far below what most of us have ----- I think you are supposed to aim for ~90% on mature cards.

That's my thoughts at least.

Yes, my thoughts exactly. I'm not a genius but I've never dropped below 85% on mature cards, and I don't think that should happen to anyone unless they are doing something wrong.

Hmm... I have only ever hit the space bar when I've gotten them right. Is the 2 key the hotkey for "hard"?

It helps to think about your score and try to use each rating at least some of the time. If that doesn't help, look up the "Interval Modifier" on reviews option in Anki's help, you might wanna reduce it a little. 65% is way too low for mature cards. But I have a feeling it's low because your not spreading out your scores enough.

The other option you might wanna consider is increasing the "New Interval" on lapses from 0% to something like 5%, so a fail won't completely decimate your interval just for a fail.

Tori-kun Wrote:I reached fluency in English by learning vocab German->English and I'm considering switching my whole Anki decks soon to English->Japanese. To hell with the "forum's concensus". It's just a recommendation anyway.

Incidentally, Zorlee told me he is actually doing the same and I think there is something about that since what I know is that he IS fluent. There is proof enough for that at least. Anything else I cannot be sure of.

iKnow! from which the Core deck was dumped from, by default tests you from English->Japanese as well. I went through the 6000 words that way. I think the reason people don't do it is because it is a lot harder and takes much more time to go through. I used to write down the word in Kanji as well to foster memorization and practice my writing. There have been a good number of threads about people who used recognition decks and can't produce the words or kanji on the spot. Usually, they turn to a production deck to help them with it.

That being said, for the words above the core 6000, I'm using a recognition deck for speed's sake so I guess I eventually succumbed to the temptation as well :> You can skip through cards at a fast pace so it's good since I've been time constrained recently.