[Zgarbas]

Sure, my exposure to English was loads of help but...
1. It was when I was really young (which really, really matters)
2. Formal study makes a difference. Believe me I spent yeaaaaaars buried in English textbooks, and not just what we did at school. I was C1 when I was 10 (passed a CAE simulation in 5th grade, though I was too young to take the actual test) whereas the other kids who focused solely on exposure, well... people tend to really overestimate their English levels around here. The ones who insist that the cartoons they watched as kids were the most important aspect are coincidentally also the ones who claim to be fluent yet make a mistake per sentence.
Similarly, back when I was a kid I also watched telenovelas, Italian and German shows a lot, often without subtitles; but without formal study, nothing stuck. Aside from set phrases, of course (Fernando, estoy embarasada!, Sailor Moon, hai la luna in te, Mila ist zwölf Jahre alt lebt im fehrnen Japan.) Oh god, now I have the Mila Superstar theme in my head again >.<... anyway, they did nothing for me, and without study to strengthen it I just forgot everything.

As for learning in a fun way...
I consider that watching something when you can understand it is considerably more fun than watching something you don't understand. So...
Reading Kino no Tabi after I had a good foundation of Japanese and only encountered a few new words every other chapter was fun. Watching anime is fun. Randomly understanding anime is rewarding.
Stopping every other sentence to go to a dictionary is time-consuming and not that productive. Watching anime and pausing whenever you encounter an unknown term or didn't understand what was said just seems... tiresome. Watching it whilst having to pay attention to everything that is said in hopes of maybe understanding it somehow isn't really watching it anymore. Watching it normally and just expecting to catch on is...well... I did watch a few good hundred hours of anime in highschool, but aside from some basic words I didn't catch on to anything.

Haych Wrote:I really believe it should be unanimous that the best route for beginners is RTK->tae kim->core6k.

One's opinions becoming unanimous is the worst thing that could happen. To him, and to everyone else too. Even if you're right, there should be someone telling you you're wrong, just to force you to think about and explain the reasons why you're right. Don't get me started on what happens when you're wrong, like you are in this case.

Zgarbas Wrote:However I would recommend tae kim (or any friendly textbook) + core 2k(because really, the words in core2k are kinda mandatory) to any beginner. Maybe core 6k too, and if they find it too boring or hard then so be it. I continue to fail to see any benefit that native material has for someone below a decent (N4?) level other than maybe giving them the false impression that they're learning in "a fun way" (what can be fun in watching a show that you can't understand is beyond me).

And what Core6k has to do with getting to an N4 level is beyond me. It's not even true that all the words in Core2K are mandatory for a beginner. You don't even need to know half the words in Core2K before being able to pick up a light read or watch popular media, and enjoy them.

Zgarbas Wrote:Stopping every other sentence to go to a dictionary is time-consuming and not that productive.

More false alternatives. You don't have to stop at every word you don't know. You can use a million different pieces of software to tell you what they mean, or you can with one click get them into a separate file, or you can just highlight them, or you can ignore them altogether when they're not important to the meaning of the story.

If you're reading from an actual book, it's even better, because you can just underline the words and look them up later (or write them down on a piece of paper), and know them the next time they inevitably show up in the same novel.

Furthermore, even if you had to physically open up a dictionary every single time (WHICH YOU DON'T), the suggestion that that wouldn't be productive is still nonsense.

Zgarbas Wrote:I did watch a few good hundred hours of anime in highschool, but aside from some basic words I didn't catch on to anything.

You should've tried watching them after you have a base level of knowledge in place, the way the people you are building that straw man against have actually been suggesting all along.

Zgarbas Wrote:The ones who insist that the cartoons they watched as kids were the most important aspect are coincidentally also the ones who claim to be fluent yet make a mistake per sentence.

I'm claiming that I've learned English almost exclusively by watching cartoons and reading novels. I've done almost no vocabulary drills. Feel free to try and prove that I'm not fluent in English.

I read Kino no tabi as well, and I still find it enjoyable even though I can't understand everything. I understand what's going on, and I can get into the story even though I don't know every little word there is.

And I learnt to understand English from immersion, but to use it from English classes. Active and passive go hand in hand, and one without the other is worthless.
What kind of school did you attend that gave you the opportunity to get to C1 level before turning 10? I'm curious, because I've never met anyone who learnt English that fast except that one girl I know who lived in the US for a few years as a child.

Also, watching subbed anime is more about reading English anyway. :p

[Zgarbas]

I was always convinced that Alles aus liebe was a generic happy love song because I didn't properly understand the last line in the chorus + a few bits and pieces there.

[/comprehension level when trust your noob language skills]

School level was really low so my mom hired a tutor*. Was done with year 8 textbooks by then, then took a special exam and joined a bilingual school (which had CAE simulations for the 11th graders, but I asked them nicely and they let me participate). Formal study power 8) .

*nothing special, just an average teacher to guide me through the textbooks.

But I understand much, much more than one sentence per page. Stop using such comparisons - there's a difference between 10 and 95 percent.

[Zgarbas]

Well I did get about 80%. I got all the lines about love and fear of losing and what not for the most part. One line was enough to change the whole song. And often one word, different particle or line will change the entire meaning. That's exactly my point.
Also, how someone who does not even have the most basic foundation in vocab&grammar could understand anything that is not for 4-year-olds is beyond me. If they do have a basic foundation of vocab&grammar, then they took up a textbook or something before diving into native material, no?

Zgarbas Wrote:Personally, I can count all words I actually learned in native media on my fingers. I'll encounter them, look them up, and instantly forget them*. Even when I mine them into an anki deck, my retention rate is pretty much the same as with words in premade decks. Same goes for words encountered in sentences; I have some sentences which I keep failing because I don't remember a word which I encountered there for the first time... they just don't stick to me.
I'd much rather spend an hour in anki learning&reviewing hundreds of terms and sentences than spend 20 hours with native material, and anki is more efficient. Learning them in anki, then encountering them in native media to reinforce it is what works best for me.

it's really neither realistic nor crucially important to memorize each and every item then and there the first time you see it and then have it instantly retrievable for eternity.

Think of all the little things you learn every day throughout your daily life that you never spend any time deliberately memorizing yet learn eventually anyway. Names and faces of people you meet, lyrics to songs, advertising jingles, how to navigate around your town, where items are in stores, things related to your job, social life etc.

You don't go out of to memorize any of these things, or care if you occasionally forget them.

Zgarbas Wrote:Well I did get about 80%. I got all the lines about love and fear of losing and what not for the most part. One line was enough to change the whole song. And often one word, different particle or line will change the entire meaning. That's exactly my point.
Also, how someone who does not even have the most basic foundation in vocab&grammar could understand anything that is not for 4-year-olds is beyond me. If they do have a basic foundation of vocab&grammar, then they took up a textbook or something before diving into native material, no?

I started with the Genki textbooks, and ploughed through them during the two first months of my study (while doing RtK of course).
I never said that formal study is completely useless.

[Zgarbas]

^^.

Quote:Also regarding grammar. I am yet to study any mandarin grammar (maybe i will one day) and yet my comprehension and output ability is steadily improving regardless.

nadiatims did.

And I never said native material was completely useless (well actually I did. Useless for beginners who lack any sort of foundation). I just see it as a support and reinforcement rather than a stand-alone learning method.
And maybe I'm a bit biased since the whole "screw formal study, immersion ftw" supporters often bash on people who don't use their methods and that irks me.

(I also fail to see why my experiences of failure with native materials is less legit that others' positive experience. At least I'm giving out concrete examples rather than going on a general rant about my proficiency and comprehension skills unlike certain other people).

Zgarbas Wrote:I was always convinced that Alles aus liebe was a generic happy love song because I didn't properly understand the last line in the chorus + a few bits and pieces there.

You know what would've been a productive use of your time sometime around the second or third time you listened to that song without knowing what it means?

Using a dictionary to figure out what it means. You know, the activity you declared "isn't productive" two posts ago.

Zgarbas Wrote:(I also fail to see why my experiences of failure with native materials is less legit that others' positive experience.

Because the fact that others have succeeded where you have failed proves that you have been doing it wrong.

You seem to consider things like using a dictionary unproductive, and are consistently claiming that watching anime in highschool without understanding any of it is exactly the same thing as establishing a base, and then reading with the help of translation software, dictionary, and sentence/vocab mining into Anki.

[Zgarbas]

And you seem to always be saying the same thing in an aggressive manner without caring about anything other than pushing your own opinion and bragging about your proficiency, and somehow claim that it is exactly the same thing as participating in a discussion. Ignoring the fact that for the sake of your being always right you contradict yourself in consecutive posts.
As for my opinion on your opinion, I'll just quote you on it.

Quote:Even if you're right, there should be someone telling you you're wrong, just to force you to think about and explain the reasons why you're right. Don't get me started on what happens when you're wrong, like you are in this case.

Edit: V Tori-kun arrives with the voice of reason. It's super effective.

How many topics of this kind had been on the forums now? Countless..

Be productive and go learning. All this is just leading nowhere and everyone is just claiming and being pretentious about what method is best and will lead to fluency/proficiency at the fastest pace -.- But there is no such method so please stop arguing and wasting your time alltogether.

It's unfortunate that this forum has given me so much and kept me reading entire threads for a long time, but recently I feel like I waste a lot of time following such discussions.

I reached fluency in English by learning vocab German->English and I'm considering switching my whole Anki decks soon to English->Japanese. To hell with the "forum's concensus". It's just a recommendation anyway.

Incidentally, Zorlee told me he is actually doing the same and I think there is something about that since what I know is that he IS fluent. There is proof enough for that at least. Anything else I cannot be sure of.

/end of rant

@Zgarbas: Happy 666th post XD

Tori-kun Wrote:How many topics of this kind had been on the forums now? Countless..

Be productive and go learning. All this is just leading nowhere and everyone is just claiming and being pretentious about what method is best and will lead to fluency/proficiency at the fastest pace -.- But there is no such method so please stop arguing and wasting your time alltogether.

It's unfortunate that this forum has given me so much and kept me reading entire threads for a long time, but recently I feel like I waste a lot of time following such discussions.

I reached fluency in English by learning vocab German->English and I'm considering switching my whole Anki decks soon to English->Japanese. To hell with the "forum's concensus". It's just a recommendation anyway.

Incidentally, Zorlee told me he is actually doing the same and I think there is something about that since what I know is that he IS fluent. There is proof enough for that at least. Anything else I cannot be sure of.

/end of rant

@Zgarbas: Happy 666th post XD

Discussion like this isn't pointless, as competition breeds the best; "but we've had this thread before" doesn't matter, as methods and ideas constantly improve. Furthermore if you're so against the idea of discussion then why do you conveniently manage to insert your method into your post? You're being not only highly dismissive of a valid thread for no proper reason, but also contradictory.

Well, isn't discussion the purpose of forums? :p Or am I mistaken?

I thought we agreed about the fact that different methods work for different people on the last page?

Over the time I haven't come to read about any "improvements of methods" such as the "immersion" method. The methods presented and used by the majority of users on this forum are simple and easily distinguishable. How can there be an improvement of what I want to call brute-forcing vocabulary with Anki? It boils down to this.

Discussion like this is pointless, because the conclusion is always the same, namely, individuals have individual preferences and learning patterns when it comes to language acquisition.

I'm not being dismissive, but rather sad to see the forum is centering around such perpetual discussions, ever revived, instead of asking questions directly regarded to the language itself (grammmatical/lexical questions etc).

For me the purpose of a forum is supportive exchange. For me it's not a place for claiming what method is best/right/most effective. I think we got that by now.

Sorry for wasting your time. I'm out.

Zgarbas Wrote:And maybe I'm a bit biased since the whole "screw formal study, immersion ftw" supporters often bash on people who don't use their methods and that irks me.

who's bashing?

I think some some people have become rather invested in some of the methods bandied about on this forum and are just slightly hostile to anyone who suggests that simpler solutions may work better.

Some people here seem too method focused and could benefit from paying more attention to *what* they are learning rather than just *how* they are learning.

At the end of the day being highly functional in a language is going to involve knowledge of tens of thousands of words. It doesn't really matter how you learn them, but rather that you do learn them. That I think was the take away point of the OP. If you're not actually learning the stuff you need to know in quantities that matter, you won't get very far regardless of what fancy method you use, how you set up anki etc.

Tori-kun Wrote:How can there be an improvement of what I want to call brute-forcing vocabulary with Anki? It boils down to this.

one improvement is to stop the brute-forcing all together and allow the language to enter your memory the same way as anything else you learn in life. But the idea that it can be that simple is very difficult for people highly invested in the language learning debate to accept.

I'm impressed if someone can focus so much on learning so many words. I think I'd quickly be driven nuts trying to do it like that. Is it so necessary after a certain point? I'd have expected it might be easier to focus on sentences, at least after a while. For me that helps keep words distinct rather than mixing them up and getting the readings wrong, too.

I agree a lot depends on individual learning styles, but it's indeed true that, somehow or other, we'll need to learn a lot of words.

Zgarbas Wrote:I continue to fail to see any benefit that native material has for someone below a decent (N4?) level other than maybe giving them the false impression that they're learning in "a fun way" (what can be fun in watching a show that you can't understand is beyond me).

I'm confident it's helped me, at least. I've got used to the sounds, and it reinforces the words I'm learning, it's much easier to remember for me if I keep hearing a word (especially if I see it in Japanese subtitles at the same time). I actually experienced a noticeable point when when Japanese very suddenly stopped sounding so fast, and actually switched to sounding like a language with distinct words (it doesn't sound as pretty anymore, but that's a trade-off XD).
I also feel that the 'fun' aspect shouldn't be underestimated. I'll be going through a lot of boring kanji reviews, getting fed up and wondering why I'm even doing this, then suddenly a sentence I got from a game or novel will pop up. Hey, I understood that! Maybe, one day, if I keep doing this, I'll be able to understand the whole game/book. Better keep going, then. So, I think the motivation provided by using native sources, which should ideally be something that really interests you, is pretty valuable. It shows what you are learning is relevant and can actually be used. Beginners may really need this motivation, it's a big confidence boost that it'll pay off if only they don't give up, and of course a lot do give up early on so I think it's worthwhile for them to use what native material they can.

[Zgarbas]

Quote:who's bashing?

Are you saying that arguments which can be summed up as "Not doing this means you're doomed to fail", "how can anyone not understand that my method is best", "Oh look at the poor suckers who use other methods instead of my fun fun fun and easy method", "anyone who tries it and fails is an idiot who should be more like my brilliant self" do not fall under the category of bashing? Not saying you're using them, or that they came up in this particular discussion, but generally whenever the "debate" comes up arguments amount to that. It irks me a bit more than it should.

What really bothers me about "the native approach" is that despite the fact that I've read dozens of pages of people encouraging it, I've yet to understand exactly how they do which could not be summed up as "Magic". Some use dictionaries, some mine into anki, some MCD or cloze delete (another thing I'll never get), some simply read without understanding much, some focus on passive intake, some combine it with textbooks, some use images and context to figure out the meaning of a new word, others basically just rote memorize the word after hearing it in context.
Can you really call it "a method" anymore when there's so much variation? How exactly do you argue for/against it? You just simplify it to the common factor and disregard the rest, so from the start it's an unbalanced comparison. You already know what someone who went through core 2k did, for example. But you don't have a solid method to compare it to. Pushing an abstract concept as a valid alternative only enhances the confusion. And basically it amounts to "I did it this way and I came out well (not that I will ever be able to provide proof of my proficiency as this is the Internet so everything should be taken with a grain of salt, not to mention the fact that language proficiency is a subjective concept) so you should disregard your silly ways which are not mine". You just can't get an objective better/worse based on such a subjective topic so yeah, arguing about it is pointless.

Also, I don't see how "people highly invested in the language learning debate" coincidentally are the people who don't realize how your approach is an improvement. Are you not also involved in it? Also, isn't completely disregarding the other party's method also hostile?

Ok. I'm really out this time ^^. I keep using the forum as an excuse to avoid studying for exams.

tl;dr: I don't really care what method people use, but pushing their beliefs without objective results ("I did this and it worked" is not an objective result) whilst frowning upon other methods annoys me.

Zgarbas, you're doing excactly the same. :p

[Zgarbas]

How so?

(aside from the fact that I am also guilty of wasting my time arguing pointlessly; I really need to work on that aspect ^^)

Tori-kun Wrote:Be productive and go learning. All this is just leading nowhere and everyone is just claiming and being pretentious about what method is best and will lead to fluency/proficiency at the fastest pace -.- But there is no such method so please stop arguing and wasting your time alltogether.

It's unfortunate that this forum has given me so much and kept me reading entire threads for a long time, but recently I feel like I waste a lot of time following such discussions.

I would like to nominate this for the quote of the year.

It's an often unspoken and inconvenient truth. If your goal is to learn Japanese, then this forum, any internet forum really, is a waste of time and a distraction, for the most part. The Off-topic/General subforum is the worst (since it has little to do with learning languages.

For example, I would spend half an hour reading about vegerianism/veganism and the issue of animal rights on the other thread, but what do I have to show for it? In the end, I don't have the money, power, influence or lobby groups to abolish large scale animal factory farms and the suffering within it. Like everybody else here, I am an insignificant individual.

I should have spent that half hour memorizing 50-100 new vocabulary words instead. I even feel tempted to ask for a ban.

Similarly, instead of wasting time reading about which language method is better, and even worse, arguing about it, just do it.

Disclaimer: I acknowledge that I wasted time writing this post instead of reviewing on Anki, but I wanted to support tori-kun's post.

^^ If I were going to post anything, it would be pretty much that. Only, apart from being aware that this, right now, is a waste of time, it is also something I'm okay with, as it is like any other interesting but that aside pointless time-sink (like video games in English, or Facebook), it isn't something which gets to me personally.

Which is one thing I wanted to ask. For those reading this who find themselves in arguments or the like, and find themselves angry, upset, etc., is there any reason for not simply ignoring whatever the issue is and leaving it be?

At the end of the day, the other person probably isn't going to see your point of view, no matter how calm and rational it may have been presented. Wouldn't it be better at least for your own state of mind if you were to, and to put it bluntly, simply "not give a *f**k"?

Throwing a thought into the ether, but does anything think that it might be more productive if things like post counts were not displayed, or if the site limited the amount of posts a user could make in a single thread during a 24 hour period, to leave room for possible reflection?



*Not sure if such language is accepted on this board.

Zgarbas Wrote:How so?

(aside from the fact that I am also guilty of wasting my time arguing pointlessly; I really need to work on that aspect ^^)

You kept arguing in favour for formal study and criticising pretty much any method involving studying with native texts and audio. You seem to be unable to believe that anyone can learn anything without diving into dozens of textbooks, etc.

Of course, this is a hyperbole, but it gets my point across. You use them yourself, so...

Not that your method is invalid, but you keep criticising any method which involves extensive use of native materials, and then keep complaining about others "pushing their methods" onto you. It's the double standard that irks me.

I agree with the latter though; I procrastinate way too much nowadays... (Circuit Theory exam tomorrow :S [Postponed because Brits can't handle snow.])

[Zgarbas]

I don't think post counts affect anything, and imposing a limit on how many posts would be a bit weird (difficult to achieve, mechanically speaking, and debates are not the only reason one can post in the same thread multiple times)

Quote:is there any reason for not simply ignoring whatever the issue is and leaving it be?

None whatsoever. Getting fired up for nothing seems to be a personality flaw of mine lately; I really should work on it. And on my penchant for getting distracted from my studies while I'm at it.

@Stian: Though I understand the use of hyperbole to explain a point of view, I think it is inadequate in this particular point. I was acknowledging native materials as necessary, and nowhere did I state that a dozen textbooks alone are necessary. There is a difference between the all-textbook approach, which not even the most old-school of teachers encourage, and a textbook+other means reinforced via native materials approach. What I stand against is the all-native exposure approach, and I explained why and how. I'm really all for compromise and common sense rather than a black and white approach. I really had hoped to make that clear, but it seems my way of explaining myself is lacking (or is it the belief that any opposing view is 100% opposing which colors the way we perceive each other's arguments?).

Also, there are quite a few who insist that 100% native materials is the only way to go, and that's not a hyperbole .